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Smith & Wesson Competitive Shooting All aspects of competitive shooting using Smith and Wesson Firearms. Including: IPSC, IDPA, Silhouette, Bullseye.


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Old 03-08-2018, 12:22 PM
growr growr is online now
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Default IDPA Revolver question

When shooting my 625 JM in IDPA, I am restricted to 3 reloads (total of 18 rounds), why am I not allowed to carry as much as the auto loaders? (30)?

They get to start with a magazine (10) plus one in the chamber plus two more 10 round magazines....

Seems revolver shooters are at a decided disadvantage.......especially when so many stages are not revolver friendly.

Randy
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Old 03-08-2018, 12:39 PM
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@growr,

From the few IDPA matches I have been to, the shooter is required to make "X" hits, which are well within the capacity of a revolver with 2 reloads. The only advantage that I can see is that semi-auto users have more opportunity to throw lead down range to make the requisite hits, which covers the poor marksmanship.
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:37 PM
S&WIowegan S&WIowegan is offline
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The IDPA clubs here in Iowa that I attend matches do NOT restrict the number of revolver reloads. They restrict the number on your belt but you can have extras in your pocket. Of course you can start by using a moonclip or speedloader to load the gun from your pocket too, giving you 18 more on your belt at the buzzer. Use creative thinking.
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:19 PM
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8.6 Ammunition Carriers
8.6.1 General Ammunition Carrier Rules
A. Instead of using ammunition carriers, shooters may carry spare loading devices in their pockets. Shooters may
mix carry methods.
B. One ammunition carrier per allowed ammunition feeding device may be worn on the belt. Each individual pouch
in a multi-pouch carrier counts as one. One additional ammunition carrier may be worn behind the centerline of
the body for the purposes of loading at the start of a stage. This carrier must be empty before the “Stand By”
command.
8.1.5 Loading Device Count


A. A “loading device” is a magazine, speed loader, or moon clip.


B. Shooters starting with 8 or more rounds in all loading devices are allowed to start with the loaded firearm plus


two additional loading devices.


C. Shooters starting with 6 or 7 rounds in all loading devices are allowed to start with the loaded firearm plus three


additional loading devices.


D. Shooters starting with 5 or fewer rounds in all loading devices are allowed to start with the loaded firearm plus


four additional loading devices.


E. No additional loading devices beyond the above limits may be used during a string.


Randy, the stock answer from HQ is "Each Division is scored entirely separate, and no comparison between divisions is valid." But yeah, revolvers are not a priority with HQ, and revolver BUG shooters are really shooting just for grins, thrown in with BUG auto: only one BUG division. send comments to: [email protected]
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by S&WIowegan View Post
The IDPA clubs here in Iowa that I attend matches do NOT restrict the number of revolver reloads. ....
This is clearly not in compliance with current rules. I sympathize with using what Joyce calls "tribal rules" for local matches, but pity the poor snook that travels and pays money for a major match only to learn he doesn't know the rules and starts soaking up penalties, or worse....
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:43 AM
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OKFCO5 is spot on.
Disregard the auto shooters altogether when competing with a revolver, you are not in the same division and the scores are not relevant to each other.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:49 AM
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OKFCO5 is spot on.
Disregard the auto shooters altogether when competing with a revolver, you are not in the same division and the scores are not relevant to each other.
Yes, but it is always so satisfying to beat the bottom-feeders with a wheelgun.

To the OP: You have 24 rounds as shown in the rules above. Six in the gun plus three loading devices on your belt. I seldom use the third device.

Adios,

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Old 03-09-2018, 11:13 PM
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Yes, but it is always so satisfying to beat the bottom-feeders with a wheelgun.

To the OP: You have 24 rounds as shown in the rules above. Six in the gun plus three loading devices on your belt. I seldom use the third device.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
Pizza Bob is right on both counts
- always fun to beat those with wonder nines with what they consider as a lowly revolver

- I’ve rarely had to reach for the 3D reload on my belt.
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:34 PM
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By the rule book, IDPA stages can only require 18 rounds maximum. So, you've already got 6 rounds more than you need.

What I learned over the years is that as sexy as super fast splits are, you're shaving hundredths of a second off your score by speeding them up. Learning to do smooth effective transitions will start shaving tenths of a second off. Learning how to effectively manage a stage and do the job with the minimum number of shots instead of "spray and pray" will shave whole seconds off.

I didn't learn any of that until I started shooting revolver. And, now that IDPA has gone to 1 second per point down: clean, deliberate shooting pays off even more.

The biggest obstacle for revolvers in keeping up with ESP or SSP is going to be reloads. You'll almost always have two for their one. And, with the relaxed rules on reloading, they won't be doing tac loads as often so they'll be doing their second fastest type of reload. So, only two ways to fight that: don't waste ammo, and get fast with the reloads. When you do shoot at a match big enough to actually go up against another wheel gunner (and not just get a participation award), if you're both good shooters, it's going to come down to who reloads quicker and who manages the stages better.

And, that's intrinsically our biggest advantage over bottom feeders, if we choose to capitalize on it. We can actually practice our complete manual of arms completely dryfire. We can run whole matches in our basement with everything but recoil. Load up a few hundred clearly marked dummy rounds and work that trigger and those reloads until you're blue in the face!

I, of course, preach that, but don't do it nearly enough. But, even so, after 2 months of almost no shooting after an injury, I ran a 5x5 classifier in ESP, SSP and REV. My best time on string 3 with the reload? REV, believe it or not. I had to shake the timer to make sure it wasn't broken, but there it is.

As others have pointed out in this thread: as a shooter, there is almost nothing more satisfying than being able to point out to someone that they just got beat by a wheelgun.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:41 PM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
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Why does a side get 4 downs in football and not 6? Why is a baseball side retired after 3 outs and not four?

It's a game. Them's the rules.
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Old 06-04-2018, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by growr View Post
When shooting my 625 JM in IDPA, I am restricted to 3 reloads (total of 18 rounds), why am I not allowed to carry as much as the auto loaders? (30)?
Because revolver shooters recognize the elegance of accuracy rather than the spray and pray chaos of the bottom feeders. We know how to do more with less (wait...that sounds bad...screw it, you know what I mean).
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:54 AM
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I don’t shoot IDPA. I do however shoot major calibre in IPSC Classic Division, which means I have 8+1 round in my pistol at the start and 8 round reloads whereas most of my competitors shoot minor with 10 round mags.

All of the advise above has been relevant to me in advancing my shooting. But planning the stage is crucial, especially with lower ammunition counts. Plan appropriate reloads, slow down that fraction to make a hit instead of a miss, and shoot to your plan. Those that think they can go faster because they have additional rounds end up missing, and going a lot slower overall.
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:48 PM
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I don’t shoot IDPA. I do however shoot major calibre in IPSC Classic Division, which means I have 8+1 round in my pistol at the start and 8 round reloads whereas most of my competitors shoot minor with 10 round mags.

All of the advise above has been relevant to me in advancing my shooting. But planning the stage is crucial, especially with lower ammunition counts. Plan appropriate reloads, slow down that fraction to make a hit instead of a miss, and shoot to your plan. Those that think they can go faster because they have additional rounds end up missing, and going a lot slower overall.
THIS^^^I see newbies in both USPSA and IDPA constantly running their gun dry in the middle of a string. This is somewhat understandable in IDPA since shoot to slide lock is part of the game. Even so smart IDPA shooters dump rounds so they can reload during transitions. In USPSA, if you can't learn to reload when best for efficient stage management, you are hopeless.
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Old 06-10-2018, 03:22 AM
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THIS^^^I see newbies in both USPSA and IDPA constantly running their gun dry in the middle of a string. This is somewhat understandable in IDPA since shoot to slide lock is part of the game. Even so smart IDPA shooters dump rounds so they can reload during transitions. In USPSA, if you can't learn to reload when best for efficient stage management, you are hopeless.
I cannot endorse this comment enough!

I shoot with a great bunch of guys in my grade but without exception they fail to shoot their stage plan.

They allocate 2 rounds to paper but only 1 to steel. They miss a steel target and their plan goes out the door. They shoot to slide lock instead of reloading with one in the chamber, and continue to shoot to slide lock throughout the rest of the stage.

On the other hand I "budget" 2 rounds per target, paper and steel, and I am always conscious I may have to shoot an additional shot if I make a poor shot. I will reload before I planed to if I must but at the first opportunity its I get back on plan.

I carry two mags behind my holster for weak hand shooting/reloading. I once missed two easy shots weak handed and while taking the makeup shots realised I would run out of ammo before my planned reload on the move, so I drew a spare mag with my strong hand. When I changed mags between targets it was smooth. When I moved I changed mags again. I could have retained the partially spent mag if I had too but it wasn't needed.

I have the luxury of unlimited reloads, but if I was restricted as IDPA is I would save a partially spent magazine in order to get back on track.

Plan the shoot, shoot the plan, but be prepared to improvise where needed but then get back on plan.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:17 PM
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As noted, it is a rule. With 18rd max stages, 24rds is enough to satisfy any stage. Besides, you are competing against other revo guys, not the 10+1 divisions. BTW, same rule for BUG; 6 in the gun, 3 reloads of 6, 24max. In a recent regional match, I shot BUG just because & finished top 3rd overall even with all those extra reloads.
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:49 PM
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Because we are better than them (autos)
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:15 PM
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Because we are better than them
That's what Custer thought.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:23 PM
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About the shots/second thing. As a long time instructor, I noted that the difference between a good solid hit (A/0 zone) and a lesser hit took about 0.1 of a second with an auto. Maybe the same or 0.2 second with a revolver. Given the penalty for the lesser hit, taking time to make the shot good is the best long term bet.
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Old 11-29-2019, 02:02 PM
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About the shots/second thing. As a long time instructor, I noted that the difference between a good solid hit (A/0 zone) and a lesser hit took about 0.1 of a second with an auto. Maybe the same or 0.2 second with a revolver. Given the penalty for the lesser hit, taking time to make the shot good is the best long term bet.
Considering good split times are 0.25sec I would say your math is a bit off, though the point of taking just a bit more time to make solid hit is generally worth it. Though I would rather take a fast -1 than a slow zero on most days.
In say idpa, the zero down is an 8" circle. At 15y, I would be happy with 2 hits @ -1 each in 1.5 sec than 2 zero down in 4sec. I save 1/2 sec per target x 8 targets a stage, I shot the stage 4sec faster. With 10 stages a match, I am 40sec faster over all. Speed & accuracy is always a balance.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:43 PM
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Ah, 2 + 1 sec hits in 1.5 seconds is 3.5 seconds total time. 2 zero hits in 1.7 seconds or 1.9 seconds (+0.1 or 0.2 secs per hit) would seem to be the better choice. Granted, that time is going to change depending upon range and target presentation.

I've had some non zero zone hits I'd have taken in a heartbeat in the real world. The IDPA tagets leave something to be desired, but as noted above , it's a game. With some stupid rules.

Tactical Police Competition scoring is 0, + 2 seconds, +4 seconds.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:05 PM
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What .45 ACP ammo is recommended for a newbie to the sport to start with?
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:18 PM
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Unless you reload, you are going to be at a distinct disadvantage using factory ammo, especially for IDPA.

Major Power Factor in IDPA ESR sub-division (the division in which you would shoot) is 155 (PF = Bullet weight x velocity / 1000). In USPSA for Revolver Major it is 170. Most factory ball ammunition runs over 200 - which means that you have to deal with a lot of recoil.

The short, round nose configuration of .45 Ball ammo is great for quick reloads, but the trade-off is the recoil. You can find factory rounds that have lower PF's, but they usually have a bullet profile that is not conducive to rapid reloads.

Also, consider that if you are thinking of USPSA, the eight-round, minor caliber guns own that game.

I shot my 625-8 PC in IDPA using 230 gr RN reloads that developed about 165 - 170 PF. I no longer reload and the fellow that was doing my loading, sold the press he used for .45 ACP as he no longer shoots that caliber. When I run out of his reloads, I am going to try Federal 220 gr Syn Tech rounds. They generate a PF of appx 170 - but they have a bullet profile that is not as ideal as a true RN - being a small flat-nose with a rounded ogive.

One thing to also consider is that, since your gun has had action work, it may require the use of Federal primers for reliable ignition - which kind of further restricts your choice of factory ammo. Nothing more frustrating than for the buzzer to go off and the gun goes "bang, bang, click..."

I know that you got some moon clips with your "package deal", but if you are going to buy more, no need to go for the expensive clips (absolutely needed for some calibers - but not .45 ACP), contact Ranch Products and you can buy 100 clips (a lifetime supply) for probably around $45 (I'm guessing as the last time I bought them, they were $35/100, but that was a number of years ago) - as opposed to $7 per clip for my .38 Super 627-4 PC.

My 625-8 PC (saw yours - very nice)


*Conversion to DAO with Apex spurless hammer
*Bowen Rough Country rear sight
*Extended FP and lightweight spring
*Dawson .100" FO front sight
*Charge holes chamfered (for real - not like the factory)
*Stop-notch lead-ins recut
*RP main spring and rebound spring
*Hogue Tamer grips

Adios,

Pizza Bob
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Old 02-28-2020, 02:56 PM
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Thanks for all the information Pizza Bob! I am just looking to shoot to improve my skill. I am not going to be competing with anyone but myself. At 70 and handicapped I am no threat to being competitive; LOL. I just want to improve my gun handling skills so I am not even sure about actually competing in matches other than to put pressure on myself to perform as best as I can. My ego took a hike a long time ago. If it requires me to run; I can only walk semi-fast without my cane (three right knee surgeries). LOL.

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