So last weekend I competed in our NZ IPSC Handgun Nationals. I was in silver medal contention until the last day when a combination of 'brain fade" factors saw me drop out of the top three in my grade. I did have a chance of taking third place if I shot the last stage well and the then third place shooter had a bad run (it was a 50/50 proposition as that shooter had been shooting erratically since the first day).

I accept that most of the last days issues were my own fault, but on the last stage the RO made a call that, quite frankly, annoyed me enough to make a complaint.

Firstly, due to some issues recently with a spinal fusion I carried a folding chair with me over the 2 1/2 days competition. After stage briefing and walk through I would set the chair up at the side of the range to sit in. I would get up after every shooter to help patch/reset targets then sit down again until the shooter two before me was called to the line.

As that shooters targets were being scored and patched I would mentally review my stage plan. As the shooter before me and his targets scored and patched I would have my final walk through of the stage, planing shot positions and reloads. After I had shot and signed my scoresheets I would reload my mags while the next shooter was on the range. Then I would resume my assisting with target patching.

On the last stage there were three RO's. One ran the range and scored the left side of the stage. One recorded the scores while the third scored the right hand targets. I was set up on the right hand side and patched those targets, sitting down while shooters were on the line.

When the shooter two before me was called to the line I sat down and started my mental preparations. After the shooter in front of me finished I stood up for my final walk through. As I did so a shooter from another squad came onto the range and asked the right hand side RO if there was a scoresheet for them to do a reshoot.

I completed my walk through and on the "Clear Range" command I stood just inside the shooting box waiting for the "Load and make ready".

Instead I got a very firm "Clear the range" from the R/O.

I said I was the next shooter only to be told "No, there is a shooter from another squad for a re-shoot and they are next shooter".

I pointed out that nothing had been said until now, I was on the line and ready to go only to be told "You've been sitting down over there all day now go back and sit down again".

I tried not to let my feeling show, I sat down and went through some deep breathing to calm down, but as I stood up again after the reshoot I was still feeling unsettled.

The stage involved two mini poppersin front of a no shoot target on each side of the range. I shot the right hand side no problems but on moving to the left side of the stage the RO slightly impeded my movement. I slowed to let him get out of my way then leaned around the left of the barrier to shoot the two poppers.

I must have been still annoyed at the earlier comment because instead of concentrating on my sights I silently called the RO a bad name in my mind. The result was a miss on the popper and a hit on the no shoot. Gathering my thoughts I fired again at the popper and moved onto the next one, thinking "That's one penalty" only to repeat the excersise and hit the second no shoot as well.

I seriously considered not signing the score sheet and registering a protest against both the first ruling and for RO obstruction, but that's not my style so I just accepted what had happened and packed up.

I did speak to the Range Master and while not making a formal complaint expressed my disappointment. I acknowledged that 60% of the fault was my bad marksmanship but felt that 40% of the result was bad judgement by the RO.

The RM commented that I should not have been told to "sit down again" and agreed that I should not had been interrupted to allow another shooter to jump the queue. Other RO's I spoke to told me that reshoots, like speed passes, should be placed 3 or 4 shooters down the list so that everyone yet to shoot knows what is going on (and to let the reshooter remember the stage).

So what does the forum think? Bad call or not?

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View from down under

The RO’s are probably volunteers and you never know what you will get as far as experience, etc. NOT saying something does nothing to help the RO’s improve their skills. Not sure if you could have called a foul or interference and be allowed a re-do. I would have said something to somebody...

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S&W factory revolver armorer

Its serious competition - I would have taken any legit avenue open to me to ensure the situation was handled properly.

I shot a PPC match once with a possible score of 300. The guy scoring my target assigned, I think, a 25 or 30. He claimed the one big hole in the targets center only counted as one shot, as individual holes could not be counted. Did it to the next couple guys in line as well. His duties scoring targets didn't last long.
T
Larry

Bad call. Make immediate protest to RM. Too late now.
I ran into the same type of idiot that Fishinfool did, and demanded the target be immediately pulled and scored by a higher official.
Watch out for yourself, and speak up right then.
By the way, changing the shooting order just as someone is standing there to shoot is one of the dirty tricks some ROs use to help out their buddies, and they need to be identified and "retrained."

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Science plus Art

Seems like you should have immediately lodged a protest and requested a re-shoot. They other guy got one - why not you?

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

When I took my USPSA Range Officer certification class, some of the earliest words spoken to us by the instructors were, "Don't be a d**k." 99% of the people shooting USPSA/IPSC do it for fun, nobody is making money doing this. I can definitely vouch for the not making any money part.

Being a USPSA/IPSC Certified RO is a way for a competitor to give back to the sport. Competitive equity is the entire reason the rule book exists and must be followed to the letter. There are always some opportunities for 'interpretation' and whenever I am put in that position, the first thing through my head is, "Don't be a d**k." Then asses the situation and either make a ruling or defer to RM.

I hate to hear about shooter experiences with bad RO's but the only way the bad RO can be resolved is by speaking to who ever was the RM that day in order for retraining to happen.

I will never step anybody in front of my shooter who is ready to shoot.
They can wait. Most likely they will wait until the rest of the squad finishes unless they are brought to me by the Range Master with a polite request to expedite that will be vetted by my squad. There is a LOT of mental prep that USPSA/IPSC shooters do prior to shooting each stage. Throw a kink in all that mental prep by being a d**k and you can cause someone to have a dumpster fire instead of a good stage performance.

Also, if there is ANY perception of RO interference, I will immediately explain how I may have interfered or listen to my shooter tell me of my interference. I will then offer a reshoot prior to the recording of the stage time.

Just my $0.02 fwiw

I have the same back issues for the past 20 years, a fusion 10 years ago that is now useless. One side pulled out to the rear the other side pushed in forward.

The remark about the chair was uncalled for.

Just seems like the entire day was a trial of errors ... just "one of those days".

Chalk it off as a learning experience. When I start hurting I just start to experiencing the 7 levels of misery and pain ( pun with reference to Dante's inferno).

To keep a clear head you can't take meds until it's over ... at least, that's what I do. By that time, a saint could become a raging maniac (not saying that's what happened but could be that I would be at the limit of my tolerance by the end of the shoot.

Don't beat yourself up over it.

Use the Scarlet O'Hara psychology of "tomorrow is another day".

Really ... what else is there ?

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Seems like a bad call to me Brent. I'm an IDPA SO and re-shoots don't get to walk up and "jump the line".

Sounds to me like you were doing more than your share of target pasting too.

I was a cert RO back in the 80's, and agree the RO was out of line. I haven't shot any IPSC match's in over 20 years, so I'm not familiar with how things are run now.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

It ought to be...all re-rides and re-shoots should be during the slack...Not during the match.

.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

What Abflyboy said. The first RO was highly out of line by 1. Telling you to sit down, 2. giving you attitude and 3. putting another shooter in front of you, especially without asking you before you went through your mental prep. While I'm not a certified RO, I've been doing this long enough that the ROs at my range trust me to fill in wherever needed. The first thing I would have done is call for the RM AND the match director and explain the unprofessional conduct of the RO and lodge a formal complaint and demand a reshoot of the stage later in the day (after my blood pressure came back down out of the stratosphere.)
The second RO, having interfered unintentionally, should have been professional enough to offer a reshoot as soon as you holstered your cleared weapon. You shouldn't have ever had to ask in the first place. Maybe this RO will learn with experience, but not without some guidance and feedback from competitors and other qualified ROs.

I would have filed on him, lest he 'DRILL SEARGEANTS' some one else-some folks have problems with "control issues" that need to be confronted when possible IMO. On the chair-and other issues regarding the injured or disabled. Just ask him/them if they are familiar with the Americans With Disabilities Act-which to render down asks entities like your range to "accommodate" the disabled." People who have flagrantly violated this Act have suffered some serious results. The NRA has a person who is in charge of things regarding the disable at ranges, etc. that are NRA approved. I used them in my extended fight to get something other than bulls eye paper targets that had to be set up, etc. etc.-a gong or something- that would allow a disabled to show up and shoot without a tedious and painful procedure for many of us, and some stools to sit on to shoot from. The general attitude in our society regarding the disabled needs a lot of improvement IMV-that's why this Act was needed. Regards.

The RM for the match is the head of IROI for the country. He apologised to me for the incident and was up front about the fact it should not have happened. He said he would discuss it with then RO concerned and that satisfied me.

With 40 RO’s for the match experience varied greatly. There were some new RO’s this year, possibly as a result of a policy to grow numbers. While none of the RO’s would have made money off the week they do get free match entry, accomodation and a daily fee.

I am not too worried about the outcome. As I said regaining a medal place was a longshot. With the Nationals behind me I am already concentrating on the next event on the calendar in a month’s time.

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View from down under

Well I was a NRA RO /instructor & skeet referee years back at my club and I would not have dinged you.

To be blunt about it as far as I'm concerned in many cases lots of the newer ROs can be a PITA. That is why I let my wife shoot bullseye without me being there, a heck of a lot less stress on me.

I prefer to shoot in my back yard or at the club during the normal work day, I have the place to myself. I have mentioned this before about one of the "new school" range officers I overheard him say if he could do it he would not allow revolvers at the range.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

You both had a bad day, get ready for the next match.

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Made it, Ma! Top of the world!

I became a USPSA shooter in 1990 and trained as an RO in 1994. I retook the RO training twice over the years to stay current. I have ROed many large matches including USPSA Nationals. During much of the 90s there was a predominant attitude among ROs that shooters were the enemy and some ROs engaged "Gotcha" tricks. The situation got so bad the NROI leaders staged a purge of "bad ROs" and began training ROs to be firm, fair and helpful; never angry and spiteful. The atmosphere at matches improved dramatically!

You were treated badly and wrongly and I suspect the ROs on your stage had some sort of an annoyance or grudge against you. The reference to sitting is a clue. In retrospect, you may have benefitted by explaining your surgery at the outset. I believe NZ ROs need some "counseling".

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

I've seen my share of range 'bullies' Yes, I think it's a bad call and I sympathize with you.

Wanna hear a good one? There’s a CCW instructor around here that pulls that stunt. To the point that if someone groups fifty shots into a 5” ragged hole, he tries to mark the target a fail. Lemme break that line of reasoning down.

*“I’m so pro-gun, I created this class and test so you guys can have CCW permits!”
*”One ragged hole, fifty shots? Better than I can do, so it must be 20 hits and 30 misses!”
*”Turns out I like CCW less than I like money. Come back next month with a $50 re-shoot fee!”

He also doesn’t score shots that break a scoring ring as the higher of the two scores. Despite the fact that the Sheriff’s course guidelines--that this particular moron of an instructor wrote/photocopied from a neighboring county--specify NRA scoring rules.

I have, in fact, already called him a moron directly. When someone pointed out the questionable judgement of insulting an armed individual, I shrugged and replied, “What’s he going to do, shoot me? Besides, he carries empty-chamber. I don’t.”

I hate that ****! Same thing happened to me once Multiple shots in a cluster so the RO called a miss when he couldn't count all the hits in the center of the target. Even though all 50 were 9, 10, and X ring.

Bad call by the RO. You always want to avoid reshoots if possible, they never seem to work out for the better.

The shooter that jumped in front of you should not have been allowed but things like that do happen.

Many years ago, I used to shoot High-power rifle at Fish Canyon in Duarte, CA (no long gone).

I was a young kid and I still considered myself new and was striving to do well. Everyone was nice and welcoming save one. There was a fellow I really disliked. He was endlessly complaining, he was very degrading to new shooters (me), and while he was quick to state that his target was scored incorrectly, he had a very, very lackadaisical attitude toward scoring anyone else’s. I never understood this as he was a Master or a High-Master shooter anyhow, not like I was a threat to him.

Now I wasn’t very good, at best I was adequate. That said I was working hard at getting better. Long story short, I shot a slow fire, prone string, and I was getting scored miss after miss. I wasn’t great, but I was consistent at hitting the target. Well I complained and they radioed down in the butts and whoever was in charge down there gave my target some scrutiny. Turns out there had been no misses, and to put the cherry on top it was the same loudmouth, chuckle-head who was scoring mine.

I approached him as I was headed to the butts and he said something about self-sealing targets and then pointed out that “I wasn’t going to beat him shooting like that anyhow” or something to that affect. As luck had it, I was scoring his, I wanted to mess with him, but I'm not that kind of guy.

Posts 4 and 5 nailed it. Next time lodge the complaint, but don't be a "d**k.

I don't know what IPSC/IDPA/ICORE/whatever rules are, but NRA regulations stipulate that the benefit of the doubt be given to the shooter. I can't imagine those other disciplines are much different.

Fun fact, however, in the Precision Rifle Series, an observer must witness the shot's impact on the steel plate. If they don't see it, it's scored as a miss. This has led to the .223 being abandoned by most competitive shooters, who have mostly settled on 6mm cartridges, which are way to numerous to mention.

In practice, I tend to watch the shooter's gun from behind and slightly off to the strong side, so the target is visible in the background. It's not hard to watch impacts. On the are occasions that somebody managed to have a one-ragged-hole, a bunch of fliers, and a score that was failing but very close to passing, I'd score it as passing.

Due to aforementioned moron, the shooters in question were taking the live-fire test after struggling to stay awake for 4-6 hours in what passed for classroom instruction, standing around for a couple hours waiting to shoot (literally standing, as no provision was made for them to sit), then firing the entire course of fire "for practice".

In competition? A little different, since giving a point to one may take away a point from another. But it's very rarely that difficult to judge, and if you're too tired to watch for impacts, as an RO/RSO you should step back and take a break.

USPSA/IDPA bullet holes in paper targets are pasted over after every shooter. Steel targets should be repainted after each shooter but often aren't for Level 1 matches. Normally the steel needs to be knocked down to score.

I have experienced the one large hole target situation when qualifying for CCW permit. Most instructors know this can happen with good shooters. Also, if a good shooter pulled a shot out of the center, the hole is probably still on paper. It's the really bad shooters that are problems.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Clubs can be at times a damage to my desirable mental state. Last year I had to quit one because of a pugnacious RM. I agree that RM's must not be countered or argued with for safety discipline. But when one (RM) chooses to repeatedly call on a grown male member using a feminization of his name, constantly referring to all the member's equipment as junk (including his Bronco), implying that it is a member's duty to not come around so much so that non members can have preference, and when this member mentioned to one of the directors the situation ( the director was experiencing the same abuse), then the member gets a personal phone call from the RM describing him as a chicken for not wanting a on the
premises confrontation. That means I gotta quit.

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"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Lesson learned. Competition is about 75% mental. If you let an SO or other shooter get in your head, then jmo, its on you. Thete Are good SO & bad ones, even at the highest levels. I am an Idpa CSO, worked nationals & a world event just last year. Poop happens, but the best SO will always give the doubt to the shooter. A good SO should never determine the outcome of a stage or match.
Lesson learned, if the SO is in your way, run into him. It is an automatic reshoot in idpa. I have even had a smart shooter mess up & stage & try to run into me. I try to never be in the way but sometimes poop happens.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Well nothing in idpa rules about panting steel. In fact doesnt have to be painted at all. I've shot a bunch of sanctioned matches, all tiers, nats & worlds, only one match painted for each shooter, pita time suck. Most will paint each squad, thats about it.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Ever see him shoot? He is probably a terrible shooter & that is his way of gettng back at the good shooters. I have seen idpa SO try & give the top shooters any penalty they can scrape up, because they are jealous. We banned one such SO from our local club. I am now the SO instructor for idpa in socal. I have a national rep as a good CSO, know the rules & treat the shooters with respect. After all, they paid to be there, they deserve good staff. That is my teaching philosophy.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

This reads to me that the RO was a real ******. I’m always amazed by how some people let a little bit of insignificant “authority” go to their head. Kinda like that little league ref/umpire most of us have run into. They let their “costume” overload theirs axx.

...additionally, the shooter that jumped in line for the reshoot should have insisted it be handled differently.

I shot early IPSC in the late ‘70s-early 80s...usually the youngest participant. Everyone did their own “smithing”. There were no race guns at that point. No high capacity .45’s, and if you had a ramped barrel, everyone wanting to have a look at it..LOL.

At that time, it wasn’t very formal. Like you mentioned, most participants offered help, took turns officiating, patched targets...but more importantly, helped everyone else. It was very friendly and inclusive. It was all for fun. I’m guessing not so much anymore.

My RO issue was directly related to a poor stage layout and a jackass RO. In the middle of the stage there was an IPCS perforated cardboard target 3 feet back from the edge of a barrier (wall). Most everyone was shooting 9mm and .45 ACP, so it wasn't a problem for them. I came to the end of the barrier and fired the requisite 2 shots into the target with my .357 Magnum. When it came time to score my run (not that I was in contention for a victory or high finish anyway using my duty revolver and duty rig) the RO said he couldn't score that target because the center had been completely blown out along the perforations by my muzzle blast. One of the other competitors pointed out that the blown out cardboard was on the ground behind the target, so the RO picked it up, said there was only one hole in it, dropped it back on the ground, and refused to give me credit for the target. I requested the range master for a ruling, and the RM said it was the RO's call to make. I packed my stuff up and left the range without completing the match.

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Zombie thread!

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