Have any of you gotten the sense that the NRA is turning away from Precision (i.e.: Bullseye) Pistol?
Their magazine "Shooting Sports USA" has nearly dropped it in favor of action games. And, as far as match organization is concerned, have they really come to terms with their rivalry with the CMP?

I get it that the polymer, hi-cap gun-makers are a big advertiser faction for American Rifleman, etc. and they need a "gun game" in which those guns can be competitive.

To express my concerns, i just wrote the following letter to NRA:

"I am grateful to receive your Shooting Sports USA magazine. But, I am dismayed by the total shift of pistol shooting coverage towards the action games. Honestly, you've lost me as a competitive shooter.
I think it is a big mistake to lock Precision Pistol into the obsolete 2700 framework. It is killing the sport. For the "45 stage", NRA has lost sight that 1) the 1911 is no longer the US service pistol, and hasn't been for some decades, and 2) even if it was, the current rules are out of touch with the spirit of the "service pistol" intent of the third stage of the 2700. Red dot sights, light triggers, even adjustable target sights, are contrary to the spirit of the game. The 45 stage, as is, should be dropped or radically changed to get back to the idea of a service pistol match.

Precision pistol is a tough game, and should remain as such.

Perhaps a good "fun" match would be a "Vintage Service Pistol" Precision match, with a cutoff of, say, V-E day for what would be allowed. This has been a successful approach to rifle."

I would like to emphasize that I am a Life Member, and fully support the organization. But, they're not supporting pistol near to what they do for rifle.

I'll let y'all know if I get a reply....

Jim

Unfortunately all forms of bullseye competition have taken a back step to the the action games.

We have a match, Classic Pistol, that may suit your preference. Pre 1946 pistols, either original or modern replica with original type sights and grips. There are also divisions for .22 rimfire and “open” which includes everything else.

For the 1911 WWII GI grips and sights must be used.

Course of Fire:

2 X B18 targets 18” appertains centre to centre top of target 6’ above ground.

All shooting starts with the gun held at 45 degrees in master hand, support hand above shoulder level.

10 yards.

String one: 3 rounds each target, freestyle, 8 seconds.
String two: 3 rounds each target strong hand only 8 seconds.
String three: 3 rounds each target weak hand only 8 seconds.

Score and patch.

String four: 6 rounds left target in 4 seconds freestyle.
String five: 6 rounds right target in 4 seconds freestyle.

Score and patch.

25 yards. (All freestyle).

String six: 6 rounds left target in 15 seconds.
String seven: 6 rounds right target 15 seconds.
String eight: 3 rounds each target 15 seconds.

I shot the score sheet below a few weeks ago with my Astra Constable .32 Auto in modern replica division. I also shoot my Victory .38 S&W revolver in classic category.

If this is not sufficient for you we also have a 90 round service match shot at 7, 10, 25 and 50 yards. The rules are more complex and can be found at https://www.pistolnz.org.nz/files/Se...ormattedv2.pdf

Attached Images

394A78E2-C219-4BB0-AC1E-547985A926F3.jpg (45.0 KB, 107 views)

__________________
View from down under

It's a tactical world out there today , most of the young "guns" are interested in the action shooting sports , Bullseye / Precision is a somewhat dull sport ... I competed in Bullseye for about 20 years and always enjoyed the accuracy and precision aspect of the sport .
But it is a hard sport to master , taking years of hard dedicated practice.
Most young people want instant gratification ...Bullseye will not give you that so they go to the Dump the intire magazine in 3 seconds and run to the next target sport...no time or discipline to learn how to shoot the X-rings out of a target .
You can't blame the NRA for covering and promoting what's popular.
My local radio station does the same thing ... they play hippity hop and rap music because it's popular with the younger generation now .
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I was at Camp Perry, Ohio in August 2019 for the Springfield Rifle matches. Listening to the conversation, the NRA will do what it will, but the shooters are still going to Camp Perry. Simply, shooting at Camp Perry is not the same as shooting some other venue or range.

The real 2700 matches will "always" be at Camp Perry in the minds of shooters. Anything else is just the 'upstart' NRA matches held some other place.

I enjoy shooting 2700 matches, but age has taken my scoring ability. I've broke 800 a couple of times with 22LR. Twice I shot 790+ scores with a 45 but never broke 800. Now a good day is individual matches over 700. Shooting for fun at a local range is not the same as shooting a real match, but it doesn't cost $15 for gas and $25 for match fees to frustrate myself. There are no young shooters at matches, just faltering old guys. Maybe the same thing is happening at the NRA.

__________________
S&WHF 366

I recently "retired" from being an IDPA Match Director (for 15 yrs) and the push to speed up the shooting and make it easier is truly pervasive in the shooting sports. IDPA started as very different than USPSA (IPSC) and emphasized defensive tactics, using actual carry guns. No more! The revised IDPA rules allow "run and gun" tactics, and even "stock" pistols can be highly modified. Cover has been de-emphasized, and speed emphasized.
Like it or not, NRA is just being swept along in the frenzy of blasting away with the latest high-tech guns at relatively easy targets with scoring that emphasizes speed over accuracy. I too, am an old dinosaur that really enjoyed precision shooting at small targets with par time scoring, like bullseye and PPC.

__________________
Science plus Art

Jim,

To a degree, I have to agree with you.

However, you need to direct your concerns to: 1) the NRA Pistol Committee, 2) the NRA Pistol Rules Committee, then 3) to the NRA Competition Department.

Basically, you will find that the NRA will lean towards where they can obtain sponsor support. While at the Competitors' awards dinner (Long Range @Camp Atterbury) this was pointed out. It is apparently difficult for the NRA to get financial support for the traditional matches, corporations support events that (directly or indirectly) generate profits.

Seriously, when have you most recently seen a handgun promoted for use in a 2700 match? The current selling points seem to be focused on self-defense and the run and gun games. Look again at ammunition, how easy is it to find standard velocity 22s, or mid-range 38 Special wadcutters, or even 45ACP SWC target loads?

Take a look at the handguns. When was the last time you saw a handgun touted for it's 50 yard line accuracy? What is being produced for sale that is comparable to the: High Standard line, the Colt Woodsman series, the affordable Smith 41s and 46s, the K22s & K38s, the Colt National Match or Smith 52, or a real bullseye Colt Gold Cup?

Look at the current competition courses of fire and you will see that virtually everything is structured to the crowd that wants immediate gratification, not those willing to work their way up!

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

I see action pistol matches on the Outdoor Channel & other cable stations. Never see Precision Pistol. Maybe the problem is TV revenue. They need "content". Bullseye would be about as exciting as watching .... Well I can't think of anything more boring to watch.

What is galling is that this crowd shoots that way and then acts as if they are somehow "expert."

That's America: dressed down, disciplined down, dumbed down.

I pulled this article up from a couple years ago. At the time, I had similar thoughts to the OP and felt this would help, or at least that the NRA was trying. Separate divisions for .22 LR and single caliber revolvers, a separate iron sight division, and a two handed division for neophytes to learn the game are all positive steps forward.

Shooting Sports USA | 2017 NRA Precision Pistol Program Update

However, unless Bullseye type competition is pushed at both the national and local levels, it won't really gain much traction, at least with the younger crowd - and that may not happen anyway.

Let's talk about why for a minute.

In the 1980s, I started out shooting bullseye postal matches in the police department's 25 yard basement range, because it was the competitive format that was available. In the 1990s I got involved in practical pistol shooting, and did well in large part because of my Bullseye experience and the ability to shoot well in slow, timed and rapid fire.

However, I'm pushing 55 real hard and I'm not as competitive in practical shooting as I used to be, not because I don't shoot as well, but because I'm just not as fast an agile as I used to be. In some practical shooting stages, moving fast and being agile matters. It won't get better in my 60s and 70s.

That's aside from the still continuing problem of race guns that bear about as much relationship to a "practical" handgun as a NASCAR race car does to a street legal sports car, the expense involved, and the need to have a competitive gun to be competitive as a shooter

To recap, I started out in bullseye because it was what was available, I migrated to practical pistol shooting as it was fun and more or less job related, and I'll finish up in Bullseye competition as it emphasizes accurate shooting without movement and agility.

---

My average range trip still involves speed drills with my concealed carry handgun, but it also involves 30-60 rounds each through one of my High Standard Victors, my Model 14 and Kimber Gold Match II fired in Bullseye format.

In contrast, the folks I see today at many ranges are younger people who show up with a handgun and a box of ammo and are done and gone in about 15-20 minutes, compared to about 2 to 3 hours for me.

Time may well be a factor for young shooters, especially if they don't regard it as an entire morning or afternoon activity. In addition, ranges that charge a fixed fee for unlimited time make far more money off those shooters than they do me if there is a wait for ranger space, and there's an incentive to focus on activities that feed those rapid fire habits. Ranges that charge an hourly rate and limit you to one hour (like the NRA headquarters range in Fairfax VA) favor and encourage, intentionally or otherwise, a shoot fast and go home model, and they start breeding that behavior.

There's also ego and expectations aspect to it for new shooters. Shooting fast but badly at large targets is the norm for many younger shooters. They have no idea that pistols and revolvers can be shot with great accuracy, and that they can be fired with both speed and accuracy, something Bullseye teaches. Thus a new shooter firing rapidly at B-27 sized targets, and even better zombie type targets with no scoring rings, and at close ranges of 3-7 yards can quickly match the (very low) level of skill of his or her peers and feel like he or she is competent with a handgun.

For example, last summer I was at an indoor range in the twin cities and was shooting next to a group of young shooters shooting at a B-27 style target at 5 yards and putting wide patterns on the target at high speed. One of them was a police officer extolling the virtues of shooting fast. He noted me shooting bullseye with my High Standard Victor and commented to both me and his peers that "we're not into that accuracy stuff".

I smiled and when I'd finished that target, I ran a target down range to 15 yards and then proceeded to do double taps and failure to stop drills with three magazines and my concealed carry 9mm 1911 - much faster and with far, far more accuracy than he'd managed with his tactical tupperware. When I was done, he looked at the target and at me. I told him "It's all accuracy stuff", reloaded and holstered by 1911 and went back to Bullseye shooting.

The point here being that the odds are high that he won't try Bullseye shooting anytime soon, even though it would definitely help his accuracy and his potential survival in his job. He probably won't try it as he probably would not enjoy having his *** handed to him by a bunch of old guys every match.

I do however hope he absorbed the lesson that there are an awful lot of people out there in the real world who shoot faster AND more accurately than he does and that his occupation as a police officer in no way qualifies him as an expert with a handgun.

That said, that police officer and his friends are 20 something now. In 30 years Bullseye will start looking much more appealing to them. Bullseye may now in reality be a sport for older shooters, but there will always be older shooters.

Yes...I agree it is totally different to observe "spray and pray" and mag dumps at local range.

My "kids" (now in their late 30's, 40's) also look on with dismay and still shoot for accuracy, control so "mastery of the craft" so to speak.

But to speak only for myself...at my age approaching 75, the knees and other body parts don't seem to allow for even prone position anymore with the M1 Garand, and I prefer a bench for pistol/revolver shooting for fun, as opposed to standing for hours.

Do I still enjoy the shooting sports? You betcha! I rue the day when I can't see or something that curtails this great, lifelong hobby, but I guess I am seeing younger, more agile shooters doing just what I did eons ago..........enjoying their hobby, sport, in a manner acceptable to them.

I remember WWII vets who were my "superiors" mostly E-7's when in the Army (1966) telling me that that lousy M14 wasn't really as sturdy a battle rifle as the venerable (to them) M1 Garand! Then came that transition to the Mattel Toy and we had our chance to look down our noses.

I too fully support the NRA, but I can see where they need to go with the flow to stay alive.......just like us vets of any era..we may not have personally chosen the weapon Uncle issued us, but it fits the times.

Just an old codgers take on the situation.

__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

I agree with you. The problem is that now 20 something year old will never build the skill required to excel at bullseye.

The paradigm of mag dumps at 3 yards just does not lead to the trigger control and overall skillset, and knowledge needed to be competitive in precision shooting.

Perhaps a way forward is for the action sports to include more precision stages in their courses of fire? 25-50 yard "head" shots? Maybe even...gasp...one handed???

Perhaps if there was more accuracy required in the action games, some of the youngsters would grasp and rise to the challenge of that???


It seems to me the fundamentals of marksmanship have been de-emphasized. There is a certain skillset required to present from a holster and do a rapid mag dump from the 3 yard line. Mastering that skill is a small part though of truly mastering the handgun.

My bullseye shooting background started in 1971 and ended in 2006 due to physical problems. Back in the early 70's bullseye pistol shooting was encouraged and highly supported by the military, as well as, the police to some extent. When that support and huge participation ended the participation began a sharp decline. That decline has continued to today. It takes a special person to dedicate themselves to the sport without any outside support. With the fast pace society today, many younger folks don't seem to be able to make that much time and money available. Golf seems to be declining as well among younger people. It also requires time and money. Over the years, I participated in a limited amount of other pistol disciplines, including PPC, IMSHA, hunter's pistol, international pistol, steel challenge, etc. The basics that were ingrained in me from bullseye match shooting have served me well.

Now to the point. Since civilians now make up the bulk of bullseye pistol shooters, I think if the sport is to continue to exist, the competitors need to bring new blood into the sport. One-on-one is the best way. Competitors must also contribute to organizing and running matches. Everyone likes to shoot, but no one likes to do stats, call matches, order targets, etc. It is really easy to say that the fault is the NRA, when the NRA has added numerous "side matches" over the years, from revolver to rimfire to those for plastic pistols, etc. The NRA has spent quite a bit of money running the matches at Camp Perry each year. The entry fees don't begin to cover the costs. The average NRA member couldn't care less about "precision pistol shooting", so I would imagine if there was a membership vote, there would not be any more national pistol matches. The burden, for the continuation of the sport, rests squarely on the shoulders of individual competitors.

It's shooters who have lost sight of precision pistol and its value.

I miss the Bullseye shooting competitions too. But it's a changing world and the NRA is changing with it, not leading the change.
When I was in charge of our department firearms training I included some Bullseye type shooting scenarios and we had a Bullseye Team.
That was 10 years ago though.
Fortunately for me, I have my own range on my property and can still shoot Bullseye here. One day my target revolvers will be looked at like flintlocks.

It's funny you say that. I still including some DA revolver shooting in my training.

The young'ens increasingly just look amazed that anyone would still shoot a J or K frame snub much less be able to hit with it.

The times are changing for sure.

Nicely written! Love the story quoted and especially the phrase tactical tupperware. - I'm borrowing that one!

Even the SASS version of Cowboy Action Shooting has gotten the speed virus. The Cowboy Chronicle recently published a suggestion to club match directors that stage all scenarios be so arranged that at least half of all match participants shoot a "clean match." A clean match is defined as one with no targets missed. Fortunately, NCOWS and Grand Army of the Frontier organizations have not yet gone that route. I suppose that the mandated drive toward easy perfection started with skeet and trap being fired with a mounted shotgun!

I recently quit a local club where this has gotten out of hand.
Bullseye had been dropped long ago. But, they did have an IDPA and USPSA certified range officer running those matches. They pressured him to 1) speed up the matches, and 2) stop "DQing" members for blatant safety violations. So, he quit, too.

NRA runs a myriad of rifle matches, and have figured out how to create accessible competitions that allow new shooters to get involved, but also transition into other areas of increased difficulty and/or specialization.

Sadly, these young shooters who just dump magazine after magazine of 9mm into a zombie target 10 feet in front of them are just ingraining poor shooting habits they'll likely never overcome.

Jim

Great thread. Speaking as a high master bullseye shooter I'm wondering what type of turnout the NRA will get with Precision Pistol being moved to Indiana. CMP has already set up an alternative 2700 championship at Camp Perry next year. CMP matches seem to be thriving; the .22 Rimfire distinguished, along with rule changes to the service pistol matches, are a great idea that's bringing more shooters to the matches.
Bob

The thing that always stuck in my craw about CAS shooting is the effort and emphasis put on period correct dress, but then allowing a floor of 60 for the power factor and just 400 fps for velocity.

That's:

- a .32-20 77 gr bullet at just 780 fps;
- a .32-20 100 gr bullet at just 600 fps;
- a .38 Short Colt 130 gr bullet at 461 fps; or
- a .38 Long Colt or .38 Special 158 gr bullet at just 400 fps (velocity constrained with a PF of 63.2).

Back in the day in a revolver:
- the .32-20 drove a 100 gr bullet at 1000 fps.
- the .38 Short Colt fired a 130 gr bullet at 770 fps; and
- the .38 Long Colt fired a 170 grain bullet at 710 fps.

In short, a cowboy back in the day would have had no issues wearing rubber soled boots, but he would have found the anemic CAS level cartridges to be totally unsatisfactory.

When it came to the one thing in realism that actually mattered, CAS dropped the ball. Those ridiculously low power factor and velocity limits are where the speed virus started in CAS.

For what I paid to shoot at Camp Perry National Pistol Matches in 2014 plus several other matches that week, I find it very difficult to believe that the NRA didn't make a tidy profit. Most of the work was done by volunteers, cardboard target backers were reused, and bulk buy of targets can't be that expensive.

250 shooters per relay, 3 relays per day, entry fee of about $270 totals to more than $200,000 for 3 days for the 2700 championship. It was a once in a lifetime experience for me comparable to the Alaskan cruise I and my wife took in 2013. But ONCE was enough for either event.

__________________
S&WHF 366

You may find it hard to believe, but the figures don't lie. Camp Perry charged the NRA quite a bit to use their post for these activities. The people who paste the targets are paid. The NRA staff are paid. The former NRA head of competitions once laid out the figures. There is much more participation from rifle shooters of various kinds, but still it isn't nearly enough to cover the expenses.

HUH??!!

(1) In case you've not noticed, Bullseye is rather big on tradition. Didn't you hear the outrage when the idea of electronic target scoring was floated?

(2) There's absolutely nothing in the rules that requires a 1911 for the .45ACP portion of the match. I've seen it shot--well--with Springfield XDs.

(3) There's a reason we call it the ".45 match", and not the "service pistol" match. It's because it's shot with a .45, not whatever silly thing happens to be the official service pistol at the moment. Why would you even want to shoot a precision match with a Sig P320, anyway?

(4) If you actually think that a 2-4# trigger is "not in keeping with the spirit of the game", head on over to the CMP and do their Distinguished (wait for it) Service Pistol match. Or, you can actually be good, and do Distinguished Revolver. The former requires jacketed ball ammo, I can't remember what revolver requires.

(5) If you want to compete without electronic sights, there's this thing called "Metallic Division", which uses all the same guns, but requires (*drumroll*) metallic sights. Only catch is that there's no metallic-only records, but that's sort've okay, because the record 2700 nationals score was shot was iron sights.

(6) I don't know of any precision pistol event that doesn't allow adjustable sights. Because that would, you know...not make any sense.

And no, what's "killing the sport" is that it's slow as hell and not very flashy. And before you go blaming all those young'uns for not wanting to pick up a game that requires, at the very least, a boring .22, and a very expensive .45, I would point out that every IDPA, IPSC, and steel-whatever match I've ever seen has been loaded with guys old enough to be my grampa.

Oh, and the NRA does an absolutely piss-poor job of promoting the sport, advertising local matches, and generally administrating competition. Which isn't the fault of the people that actually work in the Competitions Department, who barely make enough to live on and have to deal with prissy jerkwad shooters whining that their scores haven't been entered yet. It's the fault of the guys that work in HQ making six figures.

This is the part where I point out that, presuming you guys are in your sixties, I'm about half your age, and have been competing in Bullseye since before I was old enough to own a pistol. And then I leave this here.



Great job rolling out the welcoming mat for those "younger shooters" you're hoping to attract, though! Keep telling them they're awful and will never get better. I mean, it certainly drives off nine of every ten of them, but that tenth guy? He learns how to really enjoy being smug after matches.

And no, the problem is that you old fogies are just so damn easy to beat, I never really have to try very hard. You are limiting my potential.

I'm not even making that up--between like 1930-something and 1950-something, national championship-winning 300 scores went from something like 275 to 290. There were no advances in guns, ammo, sights, etc, the degree of competition just went up. There's literally a guy that won a national title in the 30s and again in the mid 50s, using the same gun, and the same ammo.

the taste in firearms has changed to mirror a change in the world. Today`s world is more violent than years ago. Robberies,terrorism,etc have climbed.People have an awareness to protect themselves. This has given rise to the trend in auto pistols and semi auto rifles. revolvers,match shooting,where once very popular,has taken a back seat to Glocks and AR15`s.The firearms field has always been changing

I suppose that you are a high master since beating the old fogies is so boring. The photo of your target doesn't represent that level of skill. Just call me snider than a Wise A!

Moderators: This is not intended as a political diatribe, but it is near impossible to present a balanced statement on the decline of traditional target shooting without identifying the political atmosphere. No stance one way or another is presented here.

I have been biting my tongue, because there are several valid discussion points here, but some seem to suggest a degree of misinformation!

Concerning the operation of the National Matches, be it either at Camp Perry or Camp Atterbury. I can't speak to the cost to lease the ranges, but I can address the status of volunteers and resources available to competitors.

Volunteers can be true volunteers or they can be compensated. I was a volunteer at Camp Atterbury this past summer during both mid-range and long-range rifle. If a person is an unpaid volunteer, the NRA provides housing and meals, while paid volunteers are treated as subcontractors and must provide their own housing and meals.

Shooter resources at Camp Atterbury far exceed those currently at Camp Perry. I have fired at Camp Perry almost annually since 1988, and I have seen a decline. Affordable housing at Camp Perry is now limited to the few remaining PW huts or the barracks. Dining facilities are almost non-existent, declining from the mess hall (destroyed by a tornado) to catered by a grocery store in the armory to caterer-manned company mess to trailer/truck food vendors. When I went to Camp Perry this past summer for CMP Pistol, the affordable restaurants in Port Clinton were Mendoza's (Mexican), Phil's (Italian), and Bob's Big Boy, followed by Wendy's, Burger King, and McDonald's. At this writing, Phil's is supposed to be history and Bob's Big Boy is rumored to be closing and being replaced by a sports bar. Rumor was that the Mendoza's were considering closing.

If you are with a Junior team, or participating as inexpensively as possible, your options for housing and eating are severely limited, in the vicinity of Camp Perry.

I concede that participation at Camp Atterbury is currently lean. I see it as growing pains. This past summer, the housing ranged from basically (very nice) BOQ housing with either shared or private bathrooms or the campground. The all ranks club (reasonable menu) was open to the civilians. Motels and hotels (as well as different food offerings) were within an easy commute, just like Port Clinton. While the current HP range in use is limited to 250 competitors, it is supposed to be expandable, plus an additional thousand yard range is available. At the close of the Camp Atterbury Nationals, word was that for next year, the NRA may have access to a barracks or two for competitors and possibly a mess hall.

Currently, participation in virtually all forms of the traditional NRA matches is down, and not necessarily due to the actions of the NRA. I can speak with reference to high power rifle and pistol. In the past three years, I have yet to see a fully squadded 1800 or 2700 match in pistol, while the occasional 900 rimfire was close to being fully squadded. In high power, XTC participation is dropping, while fixed distance mid-range and long-range matches are thriving.

The question is why! Politically, we have to contend with the anti-gun atmosphere, demonizing the tool and anyone that introduces the sport (or arm) to juniors. Next is economics. First and foremost, quality target arms (if still manufactured) are not as accessible as they once were. You no longer see new High Standards, Model 41s or Woodsman Targets on the shelves, but you can find the Ruger Mk xx Target. You no longer see Winchester Model 52s or 70Ts, nor Remington 40s. The tools that were the backbone of the sport just aren't out there in affordable numbers.

Forget entry fees, but look at feeding the guns. Twenty-twos have skyrocketed. Ammo for a 22 900 is now at least $8 or more, compared to less than $2. Factory ammo for a centerfire or 45 900 will cost at least $35. Total ammo cost for a pistol 2700 is at least $80! For a smallbore 6400 (3200 irons/3200 scope) match, you are looking at almost $500+, depending on what you feed your pet rifle! Again, if you shoot factory ammo in high power, figure an easy dollar a round, so an XTC 800 NMC would cost $88.

For the centerfire target games, participation is dependent upon reloading, which not everybody does!

In many respects, it is more the political views and economics of the day that are killing the traditional bullseye sports!

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

Regarding the comment that the classic breast and butter bullseye guns are no longer being produced. That's because the manufacturers guess there is a limited market for them.

The big sellers now are the LC9s, Shields,P365s and their ilk.

If the accuracy intensive games still dominated, their would be manufacturers attempting to compete for that business.

To the person in their thirties saying bullseye is easy and sort of griping about the older guys in the game, I get it. As the game gets more niche and the average age of the competitors rises, their is a natural inclination toward a bit of elitism which is not helpful.
.
At the end of the day, I think it is the slow nature of the game and less direct tie in to self defense related skills which are limiting the sports popularity with the younger shooters.

Gee, I always felt like the action pistol games were slow. I'd stand around all day waiting for my turn to shoot and then get to shoot a few rounds in a couple of minutes. Precision (bullseye) pistol shooting has never been for the casual shooter. It requires a lot of time and money. There certainly are a wide variety of pistol shooting disciplines around today and that waters down the numbers participating in any one discipline. I haven't seen much elitism displayed by bullseye pistol shooters. I've found the majority to be open to new folks and very helpful. As it requires a lot of focus, some shooters, usually in the lower classes, tend to try to stay focused during the match, even when scoring and that might be mistaken for being snobbish.

I'd point out three things, Mike.

One--a 96 SF and a clean Timed+Rapid will very happily get you to HM. Maths!

Two--ain't it funny how .45 holes are bigger? Although I will confess to taking quite a few .22 matches with some very convenient edge breaks.

Three--hah! I don't have any guns from 2002, much less any targets saved!



I don't think there's a single shop in my area that doesn't have a 41 in stock.

I would agree that there's not a ton of suitable .45s or centerfire pistols available if you take the position that optics--and a tube-style in particular--are necessary to be really competitive. But I think that .22 matches are really the "entry-level" to the sport.

Making the jump to centerfire, I think, is one of the problems. It's a cycle of there not being enough competitors to make super-regular local matches a thing, so there's no need for the gear, which keeps people from getting into centerfire, and so on.

As to nationals participation, while it's down, I think our standards are stupendously high. A few of the action pistol sports might only have 50 guys showing up for the national match. The line at BE nationals is huge in comparison.

Honestly? Younger shooters aren't competing in the shooting sports pretty much across the board. I mean, I'm absolutely baby-faced at a BE match, but a shooter in their 20s is sure gonna stand out at an IDPA, IPSC, or steel match, at least around here.

No matter what your sport, competing is expensive, both in terms of time and money. The economy still isn't great for younger folks.

As to time, I think that there's less social acceptance for "Hey, honey--I'm gonna disappear for a weekend, drive a couple hundred miles, stay in a hotel, and compete in such-and-such a thing with my $2000 pistol and a couple hundred bucks in ammo. Have fun taking care of my spawn while I'm away!".

Locally, there's a dude that does that nonsense regularly for some idiot shoot-fast sport. Here's what the reaction is:

Old Guys: "Oh, his wife is an ANGEL!" (direct quote, in one case)

Young Guys: "Gee, I wonder who her boyfriend is!"

There is no skill level requirement at The National Rifle and Pistol Matches at Camp Perry. That is why in comparison, there are fewer run and gun participants. I'm surprised you didn't know that Wise A. Haven't you been and shown the older high masters how it's done? I doubt that bullseye pistol (now precision) shooting is any more expensive than golf, serious fishing or other outdoor sports. It is much more demanding of time than many, though. When I was your age, I would wake up at O dark thirty, drive 150 miles to a 2700 and drive back home after the match, ready for work the next day. I guess you younger folks can't do that anymore.

Very well aware--I'm pointing out that you guys are worried about filling out a massive line with shooters from all classifications. Action pistol only cares about holding a nationals match with guys that will show up anyway.

And no--tbh, I don't find the nationals compelling or interesting. People I don't like, miserable weather, and a six-hour drive. There's a 25/50-yard range like 20 mins from my house.

I don't, either. I think that younger folks (20s-30s) have less money and are under-represented across the board. That's why I pointed out that organized action pistol isn't loaded with them, either.

As a side note, if you look at bass fishing--another of my hobbies--what's really popular among younger anglers isn't big-dollar bass boats and big-money tournaments on TV, it's YouTubers focusing on one rod/one reel, fishing from the shore and out of a backpack, urban and pond fishing, etc. All the really cheap ways to fish.

Well, for one, there aren't that many 2700s anymore. For a lot of folks, it'd be a bit more of a drive than that.

For another, no, that's nobody's idea of something to do for fun, especially not when you're already doing that Monday through Friday anyway.

Bragging about it and then wondering why there are less and less people to shoot with is somewhat foolish.

I don't think I can adequately respond; my eyes are too full of tears for younger shooters not having enough money, being underrepresented and having little drive.

Did you legitimately just brag about a generation not doing as well economically as their parents?

I arrived at my father in law's house yesterday to do some shooting and one of my wife's cousins, his wife and a Marine friend of theirs was shooting.

Nice folks, and I shot with them for an hour or so.

I was playing with a newly acquired Ruger Blackhawk in .357 Magnum (the purpose of the trip) but as always took the opportunity to shoot my concealed carry 3" 686+ and expend the long in the tooth carry ammo.

I have a few steel plate targets set up including a full size IPSC silhouette.

At 15 yards I shot at one of the smaller plates double action at something between a timed and rapid fire rate of fire and put a group about 2" in diameter on the plate. Someone remarked that my 686 was really accurate. I guess it was ok for the lighting - sun low on the horizon and at about 1:30 to the target, making precise sight alignment difficult with no discernable light between the front and rear sight elements due to the glare. An "ok" DA group with that revolver and ammo would have been half that size at that range.

The Blackhawk also did ok at that range with about 1" at 15 yards, Obviously single action and again with poor light for iron sights.

I noted however that from that point forward, when the two male shooters would shoot they'd try a couple rounds slow fire and then with the start of a 6" to 8" group, they'd just blast away and scatter rounds all over (and around) the plate.

I plan on shooting with them again and I'll ease into what can be done with a semi-auto pistol in terms of accuracy with double taps and controlled pairs. Pride is a major barrier to improvement and motivating handgun shooters to aspire to a handgun's potential is a delicate thing.

After they left, and in the remaining light at sundown, I moved back to 50 yards, then 100 yards to see what the Blackhawk could do. Even in low light, at 100 yards it kept 10 out of 12 rounds on the IPSC target, and it kept 4 out of 6 rounds on a plate sized to mimic the vital area on a deer.

I'll play with it under good lighting conditions next trip.

“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. ”


― Alvin Toffler


Fast is fine but accuracy is final.

After reading this thread, these two quotes popped into my mind.

This dialog is very discouraging! Reading through the thread, it has become an attack between the young and more experienced shooters, pointing fingers at each other.

The NRA is not like our Congress. We are the NRA, and we (the membership) tend to drive the bus! Perhaps the leadership at the NRA has lost sight of what the membership desires, but how often does the membership communicate their desires to the leadership? Sometimes, the membership plops down the cash for an annual membership, then expects the organization to: fight the anti-gun movement, promote firearms safety, sanction competitions, conduct/establish/enforce rules pursuant to the ISU, etc.

With respect to the competitions, the NRA can only be guided by the participation that they see. When numbers dwindle, they have to look to the games that are drawing participants. I really don't want to draw financial comparisons between the NRA and the CMP, because I am not well versed in those areas. But I do know that the NRA like each and every one of us here, will not invest hard earned (or hard to come by) cash in something that doesn't show signs of taking hold.

Local matches are a fair indicator of participation at the state, regional, and national levels. Costs of running a national match may include (but not be limited to) range leases, material costs (including material storage between nationals), awards, volunteer expenses, payment of subcontractors, and NRA staff expenses (placing NRA staff on-site for the duration of the event, travel expenses, and upkeep). Perhaps some may say that I was a fool, but during mid-range, I was one of two volunteers (my assignment was parking/range traffic control from 6a to 7a, then scorecard runner in addition to block officer duty until about 3p). During long-range, I was the only volunteer, with my day starting at 4:30a and ending about 3:30p, doing parking/traffic control from 5a to 7a, then block officer until the end of firing. That for about a hundred or so competitors.

Granted, there is an ongoing boycott of Camp Atterbury because some are opposed to the move from Camp Perry. The state of Indiana wants the NRA national matches there. It was discussed among the National Match staff that Indiana was going to:
a) build a 200 point smallbore range,
b) build a 300 point precision pistol range, and
c) reorient the 4000 foot north-south runway to a 4000 foot east-west runway in order to accommodate the high power matches.

Now for the challenge! Think back to the matches that you participated in this past year. Did you participate in:
IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, GSSF, IHMSA, CAS, Precision Pistol, F class, XTC, Mid-range, Long-range, or ATA, just to name a few of the many offerings? Just like there are a number of Gun Rights groups fighting for your membership support, there are a number of shooting events that we may participate in, but we must remember that they don't necessarily call within the NRA's domain! As we branch out into different shooting games, we may be drawing away from NRA sanctioned events. In many respects, we are contributing to the demise of the traditional shooting events.

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

For us shotgunner’s, watching a Trap Shoot is equally exciting...or boring.

Precision pistol shooting is my vice of choice but the time involved to compete keeps me from being to involved beyond an informal 22 match once a month. I also attend an air pistol match 3-4 times a year. One thought comes to mind is that NRA style precision pistol shooting is almost exclusively a USA sport and it is different than international precision pistol shooting so there is not that much crossover and of course no Olympic competition for NRA style matches. It could be there would be more participation if the matches and equipment where the same. That being said it is very satisfying to step up to the firing range pickup my 1911 and put one right through the X at 25 yards while the guy next to me is missing the black at 12 yards when he is holding the pistol with both hands.

I actually started out in Bullseye shooting matches. Loved them but started too late in life to really continue with it. Hands and wrists just couldn't handle the one handed game with that 45 and that was my favorite stage, albeit not my best. I keep the 45 BE gun but have to shoot it two handed now.

A shame it's falling by the wayside as it is really fun and hard to do. Far harder than the runnin' and gunnin' stuff now. I do IDPA now as I can mostly use two hands. I think it being hard is driving youngsters away. It's like golf, if something is hard to master it's not going over with the ipad folks who want instant gratification. Just my opinion.

I think a lot of the decline of precision shooting has to do with the general change in attitude towards shooting in itself. Once considered a very demanding and disciplined sport, shooting is now looked upon as a survival skill.
I think its safe to say that the vast majority of gun owners today have guns for the purpose of self defense. Shooting sports take a very distant second or maybe third place.
Not to mention that for many, life is very busy these days.
So why should they spend the time, money and work so hard to hit that tiny X when all they really need is to be able to keep shots in the A zone?

Because precision pistol shooting is a great foundation for learning the fundamentals of marksmanship that can be applied to any handgun shooting situation? Actually the attraction to the sport, for the people who are inclined, is the challenge of it. It isn't for the masses. It takes a certain type of individual who finds gratification in learning to succeed in such a demanding sport and who is willing to put in the effort and expense.

Wow, quite a bizarre turn on the tone of dialogue.

Another online issue of Shooting Sports USA hit the web the other day. Not one, but three articles on action pistol. A pull quote as follows "I Like Shooting As Fast As The Dot Allows You".
So, there you are. I get where the NRA is coming from.
Maybe it's best if they hand over the "precision pistol" reigns to the CMP. They're doing a great job of promoting real marksmanship and accessibility amongst ALL SHOOTERS YOUNG and OLD.

Funny thing, if this discussion has any bearing on the perception of firearms on contemporary society, then the need to portray competitive shooting as a disciplined, precision sport (rather than a fantasy simulation of combat) should be more important than ever.

To Wise A, you don't even know me. I can assure you I am not an "old fogie". Before making personal presumptions, maybe you'd care to tell us what the "A" in your moniker stands for before someone jumps to conclusions.

I recently had a person from a gunsmoke challenged overseas location ask me to teach them how to shoot in the short time they were stateside. While reviewing all the aspects of shooting (safety, mechanics, fundamentals) I mentioned the different emphasis on shooting styles and competitions but pointed out the traditional learning method was to get good at Precision Pistol and then move on to other types of shooting.

What surprised me was how well the new shooter was able to work into getting all shots (usually at a Timed Fire pace) with a 22 into the 9 ring on a NRA B-8 repair center at 25 yards and then a 45. (2 handed shooting using the USMC Pistol Team Workbook). Yes there were times where a dry firing break was needed to fix problems but I was impressed at the determination and progress made.

Once the fundamentals were nailed down to a good degree rapid fire and multiple targets were tried at closer distances with several different types of firearms but the shooter decided they really like the challenge of 25 yards.

Another reason I picked 25 yards was what good is teaching shorter distances if the shooter moved to the EU and the range they go to is 25 meters only?

It's not coincidental that you can't buy a handgun in Canada with a barrel less than 105mm long (4.13 inches), "excluding barrels of pistols used in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union."

ISSF isn't doing practical pistol competition. If that were the case, this exclusion wouldn't be in there.

There is clearly a legitimacy for traditional target shooting in the minds of the anti-gun crowd that doesn't extend to practical pistol competition. We need to recognize that, and recognize the value of that perception as a legitimate sporting purpose for handguns in preserving 2A rights in the US.

Hey look, somebody said something smart. I'm not even being sarcastic, it's one of the few insightful comments in this terribad thread.

No. There's legitimacy in the "middle ground" who don't know anything about firearms, and haven't made up their mind either way. But they wouldn't accept the "legitimacy" of an NRA High Power that's semiautomatic and could accept a 30-round magazine. Or how impossible it would be to make an AR that couldn't.

The other part is perception of who owns what in the minds of the uninformed and neutral: Hunters are normal people, right? Okay, so let's not take away those bolt-action rifles and shotguns that the normal hunters that live next door to you own.

But those whack-jobs with the AR-15s and 15-shot pistols? They're crazy, you don't know anyone like that, you'd be able to tell. And you wouldn't want them living next door to you anyway.

You're skipping ahead to Step Two by presuming people don't already think you're crazy for shooting IPSC or 3-Gun. And even that might be skipping a step, because so many gun folks actually think regular people even give a damn about getting it right.

Because it's really not that hard. One-handed is an order of magnitude more difficult--that second hand can band-aid a lot of errors, and a steadier hold is always handy--but contrary to what elitists would have you believe, BE isn't really any more difficult than anything else.

Oh, aren't you clever. Or maybe it means exactly what you think it means, and your ham-handed attempt at an insult is just so much egg on your face.

"Acre", obviously.

Also, where did I call you old, gramps?

Interesting thread, for many years I shot bullseye and really enjoyed it, I have never shot one of the "action" disciplines and with failing knees and getting older probably never will, however I have noticed at my local range something that was mentioned earlier, a large number of shooters at the local range tend to arrive after myself and my buddies blast a box or two of ammo and then leave, hey whatever rings their bell, but and its a big but a lot of the targets do not reflect the amount of ammo that was fired. Our target frame s are wood for this very reason and a frame 22 inches by 36 inches suffers a lot of injury at the relatively short distance of 20 feet, my point is what is the use of blowing off 100-200 rounds of ammo in a short time if 40% miss the target, if the action shooting is meant to enhance self defence I dont think for some people it's working, unless they get lucky on the first shot or two I would happily stand my ground and take a second longer to get off that one shot is going right where I want it to, my point is what is the use of rapid fire if you dont hit what you need to, no matter if you are facing a bad guy or an enraged wild animal if you dont hit the target in the appropiate place you most likely wont get to try again. I'm all for fast shooting but it has to be accurate otherwise what is the point..
Just an opinion nothing written in stone and yes I shoot using two hands but doesn't seem to improve my scores that much the bad knees do not make for a very stable platform now LOL.

I'm starting to wonder, is the NRA leaving me or am I about to leave. Sorry to hear the young studs view men like me as "old fogies" I guess that's
where the NRA is going...push aside the lifelong members and, veterans to embrace the new yahoo shooting. Time pushes along.

Hello, guys the NRA is the best organization we have and they do a lot of good things for shooters and gun owners.
That being said the NRA is all about money--- period. If your a lifetime member from when I joined it was 100-150 bucks or something like that.
Ive made a few other donations and have shot competitions , (paying entry fees) for 35 or more years. But truly at competitions now most of the people working the National Championship type matches are being paid. I know in the 70/80s line people at the NPRC/NPSC were volunteers, sent by some depts. to learn and help out. At Albuquerque all paid that soaked up a lot of money. Plus in 70/80 900+ shooters shooting the Nationals, now maybe 300, so the money aspect is upside down.
Most of their money comes from the gun industry, so you have to go where the money is. 3 Gun involves more guns, more types of ammo and equipment than your basic bullseye or ppc match. More sponsors means more money. I don't blame the NRA , although I know there is a lot of wasted money especially with the higher ups , they travel like senators, BUT they do have to rub shoulders with the political elites or we wouldn't have any guns for anything.( still 1 million a day for an attorney is a bit much).
Its very hard to get ANY shooter to stay with any shooting sport these days not just young guys. Gun laws, availability of ranges or places to practice, are the biggest drawback ,I think. Then add time, cost,and the general distain for shooting sports in general now, its a lot tougher to make a commitment to competitive shooting.
When I started and for years, you got some recognition for being a good shot. Today (at least in police circles) you would get more departmental recognition if you sold your guns and donated the money to feed some homeless. THAT might get you promoted.
So promote and befriend anyone that shoots any sport and stick together or we will all be bass fishing.

We can't blame the NRA for the fall in participation of Bullseye. As mentioned the younger generations do not take part in Bullseye and High Power Rifle. The basics are the same for both sports, but patients, quietness, and steadiness seem to be lacking in today's youth.

At the local ranges; an indoor, an outdoor public, and a 'public' range [non-military or non-retired has to jump through hoops for access] at the local army base; a common characteristic is obvious. The typical gun owner today can't hit the target, shoots ONE box of ammo, goes home proudly carrying a target that does not have any discernable groups, and the only holes touching are when the target is folded in half --maybe. The total number of holes in the target is 70% of the number of bullets fired.

Rare is the shooter who asks, "How did you shoot that small group?" Also rare is the shooter who will listen to advice about raising their skill level when given in the politest way possible. For most shooters it is all about recoil and noise. Hitting the target is a distant goal. Sight alignment, 6-o'clock hold, or center of mass are 3 of life's great mysteries.

__________________
S&WHF 366