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  #51  
Old 08-11-2015, 12:30 AM
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This Model 25-2 dual-cylinder revolver may be something along these lines--Roy says it won't letter, but the case insert is very obviously die-cut for the .45 Colt cylinder, which is the short version from the Model 25-3 Commemorative.

It may have been made as a "clean-up" gun to use leftover 25-3 cylinders, but who knows?

I have never bothered to letter it, based upon what Roy told me, but maybe I should.
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  #52  
Old 08-12-2015, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Revoman View Post
I got this one off an employee it's kind of special.

What you've got there sure looks like a "Shorty Nine", which is actually a Performance Center version of the standard model 6906 with a few extra garnishes and tricks. If I recall correctly ... even though it is the smaller frame 6906 style the PC number was something odd like the Performance Center Model #5906 Shorty Nine (while 5906 is the model number of the full size double stack SS 9mm). I always wondered if that was another S&W Model Number blunder or if it was corrected in later versions. The one I have is likely 1992-ish manufacture with the PC model 5906 designation.
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  #53  
Old 08-12-2015, 09:01 AM
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This Model 25-2 dual-cylinder revolver may be something along these lines--Roy says it won't letter, but the case insert is very obviously die-cut for the .45 Colt cylinder, which is the short version from the Model 25-3 Commemorative.

It may have been made as a "clean-up" gun to use leftover 25-3 cylinders, but who knows?

I have never bothered to letter it, based upon what Roy told me, but maybe I should.
If it in fact is an employees gun, it won't letter other then how it went into the vault. As I've said before, I know a retired S&W employee that has a nickel Model 53 with an 8 3/8" barrel and at least 5 cylinders of various calibers. It would letter as a plain Jane blue 8 3/8" barrel. What does the back of the insert look like. Is there a molded space for the extra cylinder?
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  #54  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Doc44 View Post
Sometimes a firearm is listed as a sale to an employee, but the person is usually not identified. The problem with some special guns is prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 they were not documented properly. For example, I have a 44 Magnum that was engraved for the President of Rex Firearms in October 1956 and the work was requested by S&W. This information comes from the records of Mr. White. The 44 Magnum is "open on the books" of S&W. Most likely, the gun was given or shipped to White with instructions, but no documentation was created.

Bill
Bill, I have a 44 Magnum (pre-29), 4 screw, 4" Nickel with no record of ever being shipped from the factory. Salesman's gun ? Was it used at a show ? Was it just overlooked or was there a human error in entry of the number ? Who knows.
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  #55  
Old 08-26-2015, 08:12 AM
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Bill, I have a 44 Magnum (pre-29), 4 screw, 4" Nickel with no record of ever being shipped from the factory. Salesman's gun ? Was it used at a show ? Was it just overlooked or was there a human error in entry of the number ? Who knows.
A factory letter would show OPEN ON THE BOOKS, if there was no entry next to the serial number. If it were a salesman's gun, it would be logged out to him. He would be responsible for it's well being until it was returned.
Only a detailed search of company records would show what happened to your revolver.
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  #56  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:04 PM
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.
Only a detailed search of company records would show what happened to your revolver.

Don,

And, the hopes or chances of truly requesting (and dare I say ... receiving) a "detailed search of company records" is .... ? If it is a viable option it is something I did not know existed. If there genuinely exists an option or outlet to do this I would appreciate more info on how and to whom and the cost.

I didn't send off for a letter to precisely quote what would be imprinted as to the disposition of that serial number. It was a mutual colleague of ours ( I won't mention any names except Chuck), who called in to get the verbal that there is no record of the gun being shipped. "Open on the books" or no record of being shipped, with a 4" barrel in nickel six of one or half dozen of the other.

So, are you genuinely offering a viable solution to the mystery, or are you just correcting my verbiage to proper Massachusetts English ... or ... are you really just re-rubbing the salt by saying I'm S.O.L. on getting a letter that says something more than "open on the books" ? ( ... which I already knew.) Thanks, Don.

PS: I added some pix. As you can see by the physical presences of it and the "N" stamp, it not only did leave the factory (without the standard shipping date or "open on the books") it also left the factory in a "N"ickel finish. Ed posted something very interesting i just can't recall where ... the manufacturing Leger, at shop level (or similar purpose record) and the shipping records are two different items. There has been much banter in the forum as to "why" the manufacturing Leger is not available, along with the shipping records that are so coveted by collectors.
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  #57  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:00 PM
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John
If you ever get a chance to go the Smith & Wesson, go. After you come out, think about what you posted here. The security you go thru is nothing like what you would have to pass if your an employee. What do you mean by "It would be a sure bet that some employee's had guns that were not paid for"? Do you know what would happen if you stole a gun from there. You go to jail! Smith & Wesson will make an example out of you. I do know that the company sets up stings trying to catch people stealing guns. They also do stings on the security guards. If a gun goes missing the BATF is involved, along with the local police. Smith & Wesson must apply for an FFL every five years and any problems that arise could and would stop production.
Many employee have guns that were not paid for I know many employees that have just such guns. They received them as Service Awards, they have their names on them.
I'm sure you'd go to prison for sure.
I was talking years back before metal detectors, and the 1968 gun control act.
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  #58  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:32 PM
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What you've got there sure looks like a "Shorty Nine", which is actually a Performance Center version of the standard model 6906 with a few extra garnishes and tricks. If I recall correctly ... even though it is the smaller frame 6906 style the PC number was something odd like the Performance Center Model #5906 Shorty Nine (while 5906 is the model number of the full size double stack SS 9mm). I always wondered if that was another S&W Model Number blunder or if it was corrected in later versions. The one I have is likely 1992-ish manufacture with the PC model 5906 designation.
It's actually a Forty but it is a special one.

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  #59  
Old 08-29-2015, 08:47 PM
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It's actually a Forty but it is a special one.
It was named the Performance Center "SHORTY FORTY". Very nice !
It is the 40 Cal version of the SHORTY NINE.
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  #60  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:08 PM
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My dad retired from Ford after 43 years. Small extras or special detailing were overlooked for employee orders. Things like color combinations that weren't normally available or wheel-tire upgrades for friends. Anything too noticeable and the receiving dealer would raise a flag because he was losing possible commission. I'm sure the Smith factory was the same. Asking a custom shop friend to work the action during his break or maybe someone upgrading the stocks as a friendly gesture is one thing. Even putting an obsolete barrel-frame combination together to make it unique (but otherwise no more valuable at the time) wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Like others have said, the term 'lunchbox gun' is a misnomer. Small enhancements that don't cost the company anything is another story. Like me putting Big Mac sauce on my free McChicken when I worked at McD's as a 15-year old almost 30 years ago. Just because I could.
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  #61  
Old 08-30-2015, 11:55 AM
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Not a S&W story, but from the same town. Back in the late 1960's while stationed at Picatinny Arsenal, I worked with an NCO who had previously been assigned at Springfield Armory,doing accurizing on guns for the Army's marksmanship units. In those days the Army didn't account for weapons in the wholesale system by serial number, He said that the trick was to smuggle out a receiver or frame, then bring it back and sign it in as personally owned. Once it was back in, it could be totally rebuilt with new parts, then taken out again with no questions asked.
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  #62  
Old 08-30-2015, 06:03 PM
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Sal
What I meant was if records are still available from that time, a hand search might show what happened to a particular gun. "Open on the books" could be something as simple as who ever was logging guns into the shipping records had two guns going to the same place and neglected to enter the second gun (yours). I've seen an invoice number for two guns that are 20 to 30 guns apart. It would be almost impossible to hand search all the invoices to find a gun that is missing in the shipping records. I know of an instance back in the 1980's were a Regulation Police was found in the vault during inventory. The gun happened to have been in another department for whatever reason and just showed up in the vault. A friend of mine went into Employee Sales and asked if he could buy the gun. He did and they filled out the forms. That gun would read Open on the records as the shipped book had look been stored away by that time. The gun if you did a detailed earch would in fact show the disposition of that gun.
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  #63  
Old 08-31-2015, 08:23 AM
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Sal...I have looked through the manufacturing book on a couple of occasions. It does not tell you anything about a particular revolver. For example, the book only shows how many of each model were made on a particular day. For the 44 Magnum, it lists the number of NT-430s made each day. There is no information on serial number, finish, or barrel length. The shipping records tell you where and when a particular serial number was shipped. Again, no reference to anything about the gun. The invoices must be checked for that information and they are located at the Museum of Springfield History.

Bill

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  #64  
Old 09-01-2015, 01:23 AM
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Sal...I have looked through the manufacturing book on a couple of occasions. It does not tell you anything about a particular revolver. For example, the book only shows how many of each model were made on a particular day. For the 44 Magnum, it lists the number of NT-430s made each day. There is no information on serial number, finish, or barrel length. The shipping records tell you where and when a particular serial number was shipped. Again, no reference to anything about the gun. The invoices must be checked for that information and they are located at the Museum of Springfield History.

Bill
thank you, Bill. I have something to look forward to, God willing. Should I make it to the Museum of Springfield History, will the curator provide me these documents. Naturally, I would call in advance of taking a trip there. I suppose I could used the 2 closest serial number ship dates and hope it is near the same date although I know they were not shipped sequentially.

Or, perhaps one or two of the others with a 4" barrel (andsimilar barrel markings) were manufactured and shipped near the same date. I suppose that would be as good a place to start as any.

Thanks again for all your help, Bill. If I could ever return the courtesy, you have but to ask. Sal
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  #65  
Old 05-19-2016, 12:41 AM
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Some yrs ago, a long time friend of mine and a "low profile" member of the S&WCA had very very good contacts with the nice fellows in the Performance Center. He would sit around their shop with them and between them would think of one off one of a kind exotic guns they could make. Several " You won't believe your eyes and never cataloged" S&Ws were born and taken home by said member. Legally, I assume, however the guns won't letter as no record of them was provided Roy Jinks. Their creation exist only in the memory of mostly now retired Performance Center personnel who had no love for "management" at S&W. I, and another S&WCA member, have personally seen these guns and were told the story how they came to be, by the member, when we said " Where in the world did these come from ? " Ed.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:53 AM
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thank you, Bill. I have something to look forward to, God willing. Should I make it to the Museum of Springfield History, will the curator provide me these documents. Naturally, I would call in advance of taking a trip there. I suppose I could used the 2 closest serial number ship dates and hope it is near the same date although I know they were not shipped sequentially.

Or, perhaps one or two of the others with a 4" barrel (andsimilar barrel markings) were manufactured and shipped near the same date. I suppose that would be as good a place to start as any.

Thanks again for all your help, Bill. If I could ever return the courtesy, you have but to ask. Sal
Sal
I wouldn't think they will. I may be wrong.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:57 AM
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Some yrs ago, a long time friend of mine and a "low profile" member of the S&WCA had very very good contacts with the nice fellows in the Performance Center. He would sit around their shop with them and between them would think of one off one of a kind exotic guns they could make. Several " You won't believe your eyes and never cataloged" S&Ws were born and taken home by said member. Legally, I assume, however the guns won't letter as no record of them was provided Roy Jinks. Their creation exist only in the memory of mostly now retired Performance Center personnel who had no love for "management" at S&W. I, and another S&WCA member, have personally seen these guns and were told the story how they came to be, by the member, when we said " Where in the world did these come from ? " Ed.
I agree with Ed.
While I was in the Performance Center one day they showed me an 8 shot .40 caliber revolver with a 1 inch barrel. The front sight was mounted on the frame and barrel. They also showed me a full auto M & P 5.56.
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  #68  
Old 05-19-2016, 11:23 AM
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Registered Magnums were built to order....... why should we think it stopped there........

Special orders.......

guns made to give as "presentation" pieces.......

the Performance Center in the 90s ..... had to experiment......someone posted a PC gun in 357Sig not long ago......

why not employees "ordering",building and buying one off specials......


Prior to 1968 folks would walk into the Police Station and drop off guns they didn't want.......as far as I know...... officers would just take them home.........

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