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Old 05-08-2018, 09:42 AM
rocsta rocsta is offline
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Default Antique brass medallion - Smith & Wesson Trade 12

Hello, gentlemans!
Got my hands such medallion (found with metal detector). Searching the Internet didn't help.
On the obverse - the classic monogram of company " Smith and Wesson"
On the reverse - at the top the word "TRADE", under which the number 12.
Diameter: 30 mm.
Weight: 3.3 gr.
Please help with identification.

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Old 05-08-2018, 02:55 PM
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Somewhere in my stash I've got a keychain that looks like that. I think they're pretty common without a whole lot of value.
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Old 05-08-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN L View Post
Somewhere in my stash I've got a keychain that looks like that. I think they're pretty common without a whole lot of value.
Many thanks for your answer!
But the age of this subject for over 100 years and absolutely no images of anything similar on the Internet I have not found.
It seems to me that the inscription on the reverse of my medallion may indicate that it was released to the 12th anniversary of the existence of the brand "Smith & Wesson" (1852+12=1864 year).
So I would highly appreciate for a picture of your keychain for comparison.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:36 AM
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Your medallion is not that old. It looks like the key chain medallion used in the 1970's, but it's not. My first thought was a "Tool Check", used back in the day. But they didn't have TRADE on the back. I think it may be 1950's or 1960's. It's not as old as you think. The logo you have was done by Gustav Young in the 1880's.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:44 AM
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I suspect it originally read Trade at top and Mark at bottom.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:09 AM
rocsta rocsta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan View Post
Your medallion is not that old. It looks like the key chain medallion used in the 1970's, but it's not. My first thought was a "Tool Check", used back in the day. But they didn't have TRADE on the back. I think it may be 1950's or 1960's. It's not as old as you think. The logo you have was done by Gustav Young in the 1880's.
Thank you for participating in the discussion and for your comment about the logo, because I am not a great specialist in the history of this brand.
But as an professional archaeologist I can assure you that this thing at least refers to the period of the late 19th - early 20th centuries. This is evidenced by everything - from the accompanying material to the stratigraphy, condition of the metal etc.
I have no purpose to lay down the price of the subject - I just need to identify. Simply my colleagues recommended me this solid resource as profile on this subject.
And, as far as I understand, even here no one has ever seen such a thing...

Last edited by rocsta; 05-09-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -db- View Post
I suspect it originally read Trade at top and Mark at bottom.
Many thanks! I agree with you. The lower part of the reverse is in poor condition, but logically it should be.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocsta View Post
Thank you for participating in the discussion and for your comment about the logo, because I am not a great specialist in the history of this brand.
But as an professional archaeologist I can assure you that this thing at least refers to the period of the late 19th - early 20th centuries. This is evidenced by everything - from the accompanying material to the stratigraphy, condition of the metal etc.
I have no purpose to lay down the price of the subject - I just need to identify. Simply my colleagues recommended me this solid resource as profile on this subject.
And, as far as I understand, even here no one has ever seen such a thing...
It's not that I've never seen this particular piece, it's really not as old as you think. I can assure you I have one of the largest collections of Smith & Wesson ephemera in the country. I'm willing to bet this was done for a trade show sometime in the 1960's or 70's. This style matches your key chain fob. Smith & Wesson never did commercial fobs in the early 1900's to World War II. When I have time, I'll scan in some fobs I have.
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian
Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation
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Old 05-09-2018, 12:04 PM
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Don, pay close attention to the stylized diamonds flanking the intertwined S&W on this piece and anything you campare it to. Assuming it's a legit S&W piece, the elongated (taller than they are wide) diamonds date it to the 1950s or earlier. Sometime in the '50s these diamonds became symmetrical in shape (and remain so to this day), according to some quick research I just did. Earlier trademarks have them elongated.

Late 1800s, tall diamonds:



Through 1950, tall:



By 1955, the diamonds are symmetrical, and remain so today:

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Old 05-09-2018, 12:43 PM
rocsta rocsta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan View Post
It's not that I've never seen this particular piece, it's really not as old as you think. I can assure you I have one of the largest collections of Smith & Wesson ephemera in the country. I'm willing to bet this was done for a trade show sometime in the 1960's or 70's. This style matches your key chain fob. Smith & Wesson never did commercial fobs in the early 1900's to World War II. When I have time, I'll scan in some fobs I have.
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian
Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation
With all due respect to your status, Don - it's hard for us to argue, because I can't know what you know, and you don't know what I know.
I forgot to specify one more important detail - I am in Ukraine and this subject is found in Ukraine (the former territory of the USSR) where such subjects after 1921 could not get at all.
And on post-WW2 subjects found in the earth at us, such corrosion simply isn't present. I'm a practicing archaeologist with 25 years of experience and can determine the age of the subject by a set of factors.
And no one says that this is a commercial product. It could be a memorial.
All the more intriguing is the fact that such a recent (by your definition) thing does not find analogies on the Internet.
With respect!
Iaroslav Mykhailovskyi
Master of history, member of the Union of Archaeologists of Ukraine, former head of the Department of cultural heritage protection in Khmelnytskyi region of Ukraine

Last edited by rocsta; 05-09-2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:54 PM
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Default symmetrical diamonds used in 1905 presentation gun

I am no expert (or even novice) regarding the OP's profession or S & W memorabilia, but a I-net search of "early Smith & Wesson trademark symbols" didn't run up much, but further scrounging around pulled up a "Soft Beer" presentation S&W gun dated 1905 and the stock medallions sure look like symmetrical diamonds (equally tall as wide), so maybe the catalogs, paper goods, price lists, dealer info was just the way particular artists made their "rendition" of the "stylized diamonds".

Hope the image uploads...if not...trust me

Beats me, maybe the OP's brass (bronze) is off of a belt buckle. There is an item on E-bay right now (cannot post link...against forum rules) that appears to be a small keg with a brass medallion embedded in the side and is shown a little larger than a quarter photoed next to it. Since a quarter is about 15/16" diameter and 30 mm = 1-3/16" I would say maybe an aftermarket thing or dealer/distributor hand out. There is also a elk horn belt buckle for sale with looks like the same bronze medallion and it also looks like about 1-? inch diameter and the belt buckle is 2-1/4" high so who knows.

I remember in the 80's that you could get anything with S & W trademark logos, from belt buckles, Zippos, hitch covers, floormats, jackets, shooting patches, key fobs/chains, etc. on and on.

How one that old got under the earth in the Ukraine is way beyond my pay grade.
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:16 PM
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Default More thoughts on S & W Logo

Not trying to highjack the OP's thread or his plea for assistance, but Don indicated above that the style of log was made by Gustave Young in the early 1880's. I always thought Gustave Young was more associated with Colt, but then he did do a beautiful job on a S&W .44 Russian Frontier Revolver that was documented to a famous Goldfield Nevada lawman (Claude Inman).

Gustave Young did this piece for the Chicago World's Fair (Columbian Exposition) of 1893, and it was the centerpiece of his display. You cannot see any S & W logo on the gun, but it did go for $155,250 in RIA auction circa 2013 so Gustave may have done the logo for TradeMark.

Don...is there any old time factory patent applications or literature that display what the trademark looked like in the days "before dumpsters"? Were they always symmetrical diamonds, or was there anytime they were truly elongated when used in or on metal?

I know in my industry parts "bootleggers" will intentionally modify our trademark symbol on certain parts so that we cannot get at them for patent infringement without major expense and time, and they "confuse" the inadvertent client into thinking they are genuine factory Q.C.'d parts.
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:46 PM
rocsta rocsta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmansguns View Post
Not trying to highjack the OP's thread or his plea for assistance, but Don indicated above that the style of log was made by Gustave Young in the early 1880's. I always thought Gustave Young was more associated with Colt, but then he did do a beautiful job on a S&W .44 Russian Frontier Revolver that was documented to a famous Goldfield Nevada lawman (Claude Inman).

Gustave Young did this piece for the Chicago World's Fair (Columbian Exposition) of 1893, and it was the centerpiece of his display. You cannot see any S & W logo on the gun, but it did go for $155,250 in RIA auction circa 2013 so Gustave may have done the logo for TradeMark.

Don...is there any old time factory patent applications or literature that display what the trademark looked like in the days "before dumpsters"? Were they always symmetrical diamonds, or was there anytime they were truly elongated when used in or on metal?

I know in my industry parts "bootleggers" will intentionally modify our trademark symbol on certain parts so that we cannot get at them for patent infringement without major expense and time, and they "confuse" the inadvertent client into thinking they are genuine factory Q.C.'d parts.
Thank you for your comment!
I've read so much about this brand over the past few days that I'm almost an expert. haha
Yes, I know about the industry of homemade accessories from a variety of subjects.
But I can definitely say that the discussed medallion was made by factory method using the stamp (it's not handmade and it's not stilled), the production of which is not cheap and therefore implies some kind of serial production. But I was brought to a standstill by the absence of analogs, that in this case once again shows how time in favor of the antiquity of this artifact, for his "brethren" have been lost.
...As a precaution I apologize to everyone for my probably not very good English, if I don't always manage to convey my thoughts to be understood.
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Old 05-09-2018, 11:19 PM
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I can't contribute anything to the discussion, but this is exactly why I come to this forum nightly. I always learn something new, and it keeps my interest.
Rocsta.....no need to apologize for your English, you have done a very good job of stirring a lot of interest among some serious collectors!
Mike
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Old 05-10-2018, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mh51 View Post
I can't contribute anything to the discussion, but this is exactly why I come to this forum nightly. I always learn something new, and it keeps my interest.
Rocsta.....no need to apologize for your English, you have done a very good job of stirring a lot of interest among some serious collectors!
Mike
Thank you, Mike!
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:26 AM
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Today I received a response from Smith&Wesson or Thompson Center Product official site:
Reference number: LTK1114701571715X
Dear Jaroslav,
We would like to thank you for your e-mail and contacting Smith & Wesson / Thompson Center.
I haven't seen one of these before nor do I have any info on it here.
For further information on the history of your medallion visit the Smith and Wesson Historical Foundation. Please see the link below:
http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/info.htm
Smith&Wesson values its customers and we are happy to have served you today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.
Regards, Steve

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Old 05-11-2018, 08:37 AM
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I sent you a private message that may be helpful.

Bill Cross
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