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  #51  
Old 05-16-2016, 10:08 PM
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  #52  
Old 05-16-2016, 10:28 PM
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There are saps offered for sale on police equipment websites,so I am guessing that they are still allowed at some law enforcement agencies.
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Old 05-16-2016, 11:07 PM
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Default A LOST ART

Swinging the wood billies by the wrist strap while walking a beat whistling, the good ol-days. Anyone remember officer Joe Bolten from NY who came on before the 3 stooges? Those side pockets may have been used later for toilet plungers. One of my fondest memories & the sweetest music was when 2 mounted NYPD officers came galloping up on a gang about to mess up me and 3 buds in central park swinging those long riot clubs like some Bruce Lee movie on horseback and the sound of wood hitting skull. I have a short 10 1/2" lead filled wood, extremely well used but the handle is cracked. The only thing I got to use it on was bluefish & ice. I still keep it in the kitchen for ice & grinding up herbs. I hears the Bobbies across the pond were pretty good with them & could throw one around a corner.
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  #54  
Old 07-04-2016, 06:17 AM
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I never had the wooden night stick. I had the plastic PR24 side handle baton. I remember in the academy doing the stupid drills with it. Holding it by the side handle and using it like a tonfa to block and the swinging it by the handle at the bag. In reality, they were held by the bottom and swung like a bat.

But when the wooden ones were issued, rookies would spend hours on their days off learning to twirl it, not to mention twirling it all day at work. Guys would bang them on the concrete and thrown them against walls to scar them up and make them look more used.

All I know is, when I was a kid in Brooklyn, all it took was ONE cop walking the best twirling that baton to clear an entire corner or park of some serious looking dudes. They knew he would not hesitate to crack their skulls, and unlike today, he wouldn't be crucified for doing so.

If you ever watch the "Maniac Cop" series of films(cheesy, I know), the Maniac Cop brought back from the dead walks the beat expertly twirling his baton with his Model 10 at his side. Very retro. Hell, I remember the days that cops had a simple belt, holster and gun, dump pouches, stick, and cuff case. Guys now are so loaded down with gear it's amazing they can walk.

Last edited by kbm6893; 07-04-2016 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 07-04-2016, 08:15 AM
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This thread really takes me back.

When I first came on board they didn't have a lot of the field training protocol that they do now. I was taken to a closet off of the evidence room and we searched through used uniforms until I found a couple that were a close enough fit for me to go to the academy the following Monday. They also gave me a large paper grocery bag full of leather and a box with a S & W model 66 and told me to show up at 8:00 the following morning.

I washed and pressed those uniforms that night and noticed this small pocket down the back of my right pant leg. I remember spending a long time trying to figure out how the buckle on the Sam Brown belt worked. As I got dressed the following morning the only guidance I had as to where things go was watching Adam 12. I figured that little pocket must be there to put the end of your night stick in so it didn't swing around. Most of you guys who were old time cops know how my first day went when I walked in with my night stick hanging from the ring and the end tucked in that sap pocket... and my dump pouches were on the belt upside down. As I was one of only two in a 100 man department at the time that had a college degree, the old guys were pretty brutal on the smart "college kid".

An older Lt. opened his desk drawer and gave me my S & W sap. Some of the older guys could pop a guy over the temple and put it back in the pocket and catch them before they could hit the ground. I remember a non cooperate D.U.I. driver one night with his hands wrapped around the steering wheel refusing to exit the vehicle. My older training officer never said a word, just walked up and rapped him across the knuckles with his sap. Pretty sure there were several broken bones in his hand when I cuffed him.

As an aside, the night sticks that we were issued were made of hickory and had flutes like a rifle barrel running down the full length. They also had a stainless steel ball on the handle end as a "rib spreader". Some of the more devastating wounds that I saw back then were from those night sticks. They would cut you just like a sword with those flutes.
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  #56  
Old 07-04-2016, 09:41 AM
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Older brother had drinking problem years ago.. He was on first name basis with the local DPS Trooper. One night brother met the sap because of his mouth. His nose is a bit to the right these days. He still speaks of the Trooper with a smile. From the stories the Trooper was a fine gentleman.
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  #57  
Old 07-04-2016, 10:39 AM
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The chief of police in our small town had a wooden arm, used it very proficiently and was afraid of absolutely nothing.

This was in the old days, they did not even have a radio, just a light over the telephone company, when it was on they would go to a phone and the operator would give them the message.

He knew every kid by name, who was new to town, newcomers met him first, who was welcome who was not. When you had a problem you could go to him and talk anytime.

Your thoughts brought back many memories of good times with our police. In those days they were our police and many would not hesitate to help them when they needed help.

I have a description of "The Town Cop" by Steinbeck, will try to find it and post it later.
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  #58  
Old 07-30-2016, 07:40 PM
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After reading the above posts, I had to go through my old stuff and dug out my blackjack. It was made by Bucheimer, is 11" long, and carries a few scars.
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  #59  
Old 07-30-2016, 08:10 PM
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I served 24 years in a 25,000 college town in N MO from 78-2002. Had a sap pocket and carried a sap. It sits atop a case of my old badges etc. I took it down to look at it after looking at his thread. It's a Bucheimer and is 11 inches long. I think they called it the big John or long john?

Never hit anyone in the head but will attest if some one grabs onto something / someone and doesn't want to let go, a shot on the back of the hand will convince them to let go' post haste.
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Old 07-30-2016, 08:26 PM
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I meant to had that I carried a Maglite when they came out.

Maglite definition =lead filled pipe
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  #61  
Old 07-30-2016, 08:31 PM
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Speaking of batons, I researched a book about gangsters in the 1930s, and a common piece of cop slang was "a hickory shampoo," based on hickory as the favored wood for batons. On Saturday morning when you wake up in the lock up with your head all lumped up, you're said to have had a hickory shampoo.
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  #62  
Old 08-01-2016, 11:57 PM
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Default Difference in effectiveness by type?

Hi, folks,
Very interesting reading about the "old days!" I'm not an LEO,
but do remember seeing both the flat "slapper" and cylindrical,
spring-type blackjacks in use by police officers when I was young.

I'm curious to ask if there was any significant difference in effectiveness
or damage done by either flat saps or cylindrical, coil-spring blackjacks?
It seems the flat saps replaced the coil-spring type? Is that because they
did more damage than was desirable, or were less effective than the saps?

Just curious. I was raised with proper respect for police officers, so
luckily, I never encountered these except from afar! :-)


John
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  #63  
Old 08-02-2016, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackM View Post
Sap gloves were popular when I was just getting started in the late seventies--black leather gloves with powdered lead sewn into a pocket over the knuckles. If I remember correctly mine were deerskin, made by a company in New Hampshire or Vermont. They were heavy. Very impressive when you dropped them onto the counter at the coffee shop. And equally embarrassing when you then whacked your teeth with the (by comparison) featherweight coffee cup.
The company was Monadnock. Located in Rindge, New Hampshire. They sold a complete line on Police protection. They are now owned by Safariland.
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  #64  
Old 08-02-2016, 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by John F.
"I'm curious to ask if there was any significant difference in effectiveness
or damage done by either flat saps or cylindrical, coil-spring blackjacks?
It seems the flat saps replaced the coil-spring type? Is that because they
did more damage than was desirable, or were less effective than the saps?"

In my experience the flat saps were more user friendly, you could carry them all day long and not know they were there. They would not wear out a pocket or bruise you if you ran into something or someone. They were as deadly as you intended them to be, a good hand with them could end a confrontation with little more than a slap, many times witnesses did not even know it was there. You could use the edge, but I liked the flat.

After a long time being carried (worn out) the round saps would shed BB's when used. They were more likely to break the skin or do more damage than necessary. The braiding on the end of the round saps was pretty.

Last edited by Ed Fowler; 08-02-2016 at 05:17 PM.
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  #65  
Old 08-02-2016, 04:28 PM
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I think S&W used to advertise the slappers on television. I kind of recall the jingle:

"Slap off, slap off,
Slap off, slap off, slap off.
The slapper!"

I may be confused about the product, but that's how I remember it.
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Old 08-04-2016, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUFF View Post
I think S&W used to advertise the slappers on television. I kind of recall the jingle:

"Slap off, slap off,
Slap off, slap off, slap off.
The slapper!"

I may be confused about the product, but that's how I remember it.
You sir are So Bad
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:34 AM
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When an AF cop, I had a Presidential security detail at the USAF Academy.

While there, I talked to one of the men stationed there and he showed his nightstick that had been hollowed out for several inches and filled with lead. I suspect that it was very effective.

I was trained to use a nightstick at the Air Police School, but never saw a blackjack or sap on duty. Did see civilian cops with them.

Some people will grasp a roll of coins to give their fists added striking power.

Last edited by Texas Star; 08-08-2016 at 06:36 AM.
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  #68  
Old 08-09-2016, 07:44 PM
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Default Writing the first ever book on saps

Hello gents.
I am an antique weapons collector, amateur historian and martial arts nerd.
Guess I have to start reaching out now that my manuscript is pretty much done.
I've written what I believe is the first book ever on saps and jacks.

If anyone wants to post more pics of their classic S&W flat saps or throw in some more war stories, please do!
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:14 PM
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While an LEO I never received instruction on how to use a sap, always wondered why, I guess they just figured we all knew how to use one.

I learned how by watching a bar tender in Central City Colo use one. The bar was the 49er, a man aptly named "Shorty" owned it and usually tended bar. He was fair and ran a good bar, when needed he had a long sap in his back pocket. I watched him use it a lot! One little tap with the flat just behind the ear and the fight was over, never any blood or permanent damage that we heard about, he was a real artist with the sap. If he got in trouble his regular customers backed him completely.

We had a game, Shorty was aware of it, but never let on. The object of the game was to take Shortys' sap our of his pocket, if you could do it you got free drinks. Many tried, but Shorty was fast, very vast and those who tried ended up laying on the floor with a little bump behind their ear.

One night I entered the bar acting very drunk, staggered to a stool at the end of the bar and ordered a drink. After a while shorty took me for granted and got careless and I was able to take his sap out of his pocket!! He was furious but soon got over it, Shorty and I shook hands and I returned his sap. After a while I felt kind of sorry for Shorty, I had taken his championship away from him, but sometimes you got to loose.

Our first thought is to hit the antagonist on the head, but they work great for slaps to the face, ribs, elbow, wrist or any other part of the anatomy you could get to in a brawl. You could easily turn one side wise and break an arm or what ever needed done.
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  #70  
Old 08-10-2016, 06:22 PM
Kiki-saps Kiki-saps is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler View Post
While an LEO I never received instruction on how to use a sap, always wondered why, I guess they just figured we all knew how to use one.

I learned how by watching a bar tender in Central City Colo use one. The bar was the 49er, a man aptly named "Shorty" owned it and usually tended bar. He was fair and ran a good bar, when needed he had a long sap in his back pocket. I watched him use it a lot! One little tap with the flat just behind the ear and the fight was over, never any blood or permanent damage that we heard about, he was a real artist with the sap. If he got in trouble his regular customers backed him completely.

We had a game, Shorty was aware of it, but never let on. The object of the game was to take Shortys' sap our of his pocket, if you could do it you got free drinks. Many tried, but Shorty was fast, very vast and those who tried ended up laying on the floor with a little bump behind their ear.

One night I entered the bar acting very drunk, staggered to a stool at the end of the bar and ordered a drink. After a while shorty took me for granted and got careless and I was able to take his sap out of his pocket!! He was furious but soon got over it, Shorty and I shook hands and I returned his sap. After a while I felt kind of sorry for Shorty, I had taken his championship away from him, but sometimes you got to loose.

Our first thought is to hit the antagonist on the head, but they work great for slaps to the face, ribs, elbow, wrist or any other part of the anatomy you could get to in a brawl. You could easily turn one side wise and break an arm or what ever needed done.
Bartenders and saloon keepers having a sap behind the bar is definitely a time honored tradition. One trick that I know wasn't exclusive to them but very convenient in their case was to wrap it in a dish rag. That way they looked pretty innocuous walking with it in their hand up to the troublemaker.
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  #71  
Old 08-18-2016, 08:55 AM
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Apologies for the back to back posts but I just made this a couple of days ago if anyone wants a primer on our subject here.
Still need to acquire a S&W B96S and L so I can do a vid just on that line.

Saps, blackjack overview...
Sap, Blackjack & Slungshot- Overview and History - YouTube
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