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Old 10-28-2015, 09:45 AM
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Default WARNING for paper collectors outside US

It saddens me to say that a shipper in the US is going to destroy 3, model 41, parts list, currently sitting in there warehouse. Under the grounds they do not ship guns or gun parts. No warning, no notice, no change in policy, first I know is an e-mail saying these 3 items will not be forwarded.

For nearly 2 years they have shipped my catalogs and Smith & Wesson paper. Now they are calling them gun parts and they have to be disposed off. That’s destroyed, not posted back to sender or sent to a different US address, the word they use is discard!

The only good thing if I can say its good is they sent my pirates catalog some time ago. The S&W paper in question "parts list" are a single sheet of paper folded to give 4 pages, breakdown picture of gun, list or parts, maintenance and safety information.
One is what a call the 2nd type Model 41-1 parts list, these are one of the rarer types and possibly only a few hundred printed, possibly a few dozen remaining. It is the only one I have ever seen! The next one is a model 46 pats list which I believe is the 3rd type printed, considering 4000 guns made I would guess and say possibly 500 of this type printed. The third is an early blue model 41 Parts list, reasonably common or easier to find.

I will not name the company unless told I can. I will say if you have been using or know anyone using an address simular to mine “Express Ln, Sarasota, FL” find another. This is a warning to any and all gun paper collectors that currently use mail forwarders. Do not use an address like mine or you will lose that piece of history.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:26 PM
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Incredibly stupid
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:54 PM
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Find an attorney on this side and sue their pants off! It is not their property to 'discard'. They should either return it to the sender, or refuse to accept it.

Sorry, but that just ticks me off to no end
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:15 AM
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Ask for proof of the destroyed paper.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:00 AM
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Good Lord, man! Someone with some credentials in Fla. should be able to get that cut loose. That's nuts.
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Old 10-31-2015, 04:19 AM
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Here is the last email from this company.
..........................................................................
Hello,

Thank you for your email. I have reviewed the package and I certainly understand your concern. However, our Trade Compliance Team did review the item and found that it would be considered to be under the domain of the United States Munitions List. By US Export Regulations, we are required by the US Government to comply with the statute and proceed with discarding the item.

I understand the rarity of the item, however, that cannot supersede our required compliance with the law. I truly apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you.

Please feel free to contact me if I can be of further assistance

Kind Regards,

Judy

COMPANY NAME REMOVED

Customer Service Representative

www.my .com
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Old 10-31-2015, 07:32 AM
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I hope everyone on this forum reads this post and sees the "slippery slope" and unintended consequences of more rules, regulations, and laws.
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Old 10-31-2015, 08:41 AM
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The shipping company is probably playing it safe based on concerns of ITAR compliance.
Medium and large companies have departments to deal with ITAR compliance.
It is not a simple thing.
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Old 10-31-2015, 10:50 AM
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I'll bet the shipping company was recently visited by an FBI agent because some people were using their service to acquire then ship truly sensitive US military hardware offshore. They got their butt in a ringer and are now being very cautious.
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Old 10-31-2015, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_B View Post
I'll bet the shipping company was recently visited by an FBI agent because some people were using their service to acquire then ship truly sensitive US military hardware offshore. They got their butt in a ringer and are now being very cautious.
You may well be correct.
If others use this logic will it mean outside the US we will no longer get shotgun news or the Smith & Wesson collectors Journal?
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:22 PM
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Just curious. Why is it necessary to use a forwarding service?
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Old 11-01-2015, 05:08 AM
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There are many sellers on ebay that for one reason or another will not post outside the US.
The other reason is it works out much cheaper, that is if you get the goods. Shippers repackage and accumulate, so multiple packages to them, one to me, works out much cheaper especially paper, well it use to work out cheaper. It has now worked out much dearer considering they just destroyed paper I had to pay for.

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Just curious. Why is it necessary to use a forwarding service?
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:52 AM
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Shame you couldn't have just had your harmless paperwork put it in an envelope and mailed.
Sorry to hear it turning out this way.
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Collector View Post
There are many sellers on ebay that for one reason or another will not post outside the US.
The other reason is it works out much cheaper, that is if you get the goods. Shippers repackage and accumulate, so multiple packages to them, one to me, works out much cheaper especially paper, well it use to work out cheaper. It has now worked out much dearer considering they just destroyed paper I had to pay for.
How was it label'd?

"HandGun manual" or just "Manual" ?
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:34 AM
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I only spent a few minutes looking at the law, but it looks like anything much more complex than a basic user manual or advertisement could be interpreted as "unclassified technical data" under itar. So I guess it isn't the shipper's fault..."it's the law."

Export of any technical data concerning "munitions" is restricted. "Munitions" specifically includes "Nonautomatic and semi-automatic
firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm)." (The big stuff is also covered, under different sub-headings)

Technical data includes "Information... which is required for the design, development, production, manufacture, assembly, operation, repair, testing, maintenance or modification of defense articles." It includes information "in the form of blueprints, drawings, photographs, plans, instructions or documentation."

To send such dangerous materials outside of the U.S., one must obtain a DSP-5 license from the State Department Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.

Thankfully, for those of us living in the U.S., this ridiculous law (or at least the recent ridiculous interpretations of the law) only governs export and not import.

ITAR was created during the cold war as a tool in that situation. It was previously interpreted by the Directorate in a very narrow manner, which has allowed it to pass constitutional challenges. Recently the Directorate has taken a substantially more broad view of the things covered by the law.

To the OP, maybe you should see if you can find a re-shipper with a DSP-5 license and have the people you are using forward to there?
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:36 AM
J. R. WEEMS J. R. WEEMS is offline
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Not sure this will be of any help but-- I have a S&W issued parts book, that is to sayit contains pages showing their guns, up to the late 70's or so, nothing in the last 20 years or so. It lists the gun, part numbers and a description of the part-- firing pin rear sight blade, etc., you get the idea. If it would be of any help, I would be glad to copy the desired page needed and send it to you-- the govt. can go do you know what to it's self. I could care less. PM me if need be. I have considered selling the book but am not ready to do that as of right now. FYI---
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10ring View Post
I only spent a few minutes looking at the law, but it looks like anything much more complex than a basic user manual or advertisement could be interpreted as "unclassified technical data" under itar. So I guess it isn't the shipper's fault..."it's the law."
Recent correspondence with the shipper had confirmed exactly what you have said, they classified them as blueprints. After much discussion the parts list have been returned to the seller.

The parts list are a basic user manual shipped with every S&W from the 50s through to 80s.

I can only guess this law was written long before the internet or by someone with their head in a bucket.
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Collector View Post
The parts list are a basic user manual shipped with every S&W from the 50s through to 80s.

I can only guess this law was written long before the internet or by someone with their head in a bucket.
I realize that this might be a bit of an inconvenience, but have you considered contacting S&W Customer Service and requesting the owners manuals/parts lists that you require? Chances are, it could cost you less, and they should have whatever permits that are required to get the documents to you!
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Old 11-25-2015, 02:03 AM
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I realize that this might be a bit of an inconvenience, but have you considered contacting S&W Customer Service and requesting the owners manuals/parts lists that you require? Chances are, it could cost you less, and they should have whatever permits that are required to get the documents to you!
Im a bit of a S&W paper collector, collecting mainly older cataloges, I was on the path to obtain all the different model 41/41-1/46 documents, this has caused me to lose a little interest.
If I only wanted a copy they are available on the internet, I wanted one of each version. I have had offers from others for copies that I'm very grateful for. Thanks to all.

I contacted S&W for merchandise a year ago as the Australian distributor will not get it in. S&W US will not send to Australia, not cups, not hats, not shirts.............
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:40 AM
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Some good news out of it all.
The parts lists were returned to sender then posted to me.
3 different Model 41 lists, a Model 41-1 and a model 46.
Attached Thumbnails
WARNING for paper collectors outside US-model-41-parts-lists-jpg  
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Old 12-30-2015, 06:07 AM
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Jaime, email me if I could help of have the parts lists shipped to me in Florida. Sal
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Old 01-02-2016, 11:52 AM
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I sell on ebay, mostly Enfield and Mauser parts.
I have to block all international bidders due to ITAR as I read it and as my attorney has advised me to do.
It's a shame it has come to this, but sometimes it's not the sellers fault, it's our Congresscritters doing.

Good to see you got your items.
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:03 PM
J. R. WEEMS J. R. WEEMS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Collector View Post
Im a bit of a S&W paper collector, collecting mainly older cataloges, I was on the path to obtain all the different model 41/41-1/46 documents, this has caused me to lose a little interest.
If I only wanted a copy they are available on the internet, I wanted one of each version. I have had offers from others for copies that I'm very grateful for. Thanks to all.

I contacted S&W for merchandise a year ago as the Australian distributor will not get it in. S&W US will not send to Australia, not cups, not hats, not shirts.............
Have several cups, a coin bank or two and at least one stein for sale Send your address if you have an interest.
j.weemsjr@comcast.net
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:37 PM
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Wow, NJ isn't so bad after all.
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. R. WEEMS View Post
Have several cups, a coin bank or two and at least one stein for sale Send your address if you have an interest.
j.weemsjr@comcast.net
Thanks mate.
I was after S&W clothing mainly, shirts, caps, jackets. Been getting them on ebay, sellers have seen the market opportunity and purchase from S&W then on sell it.
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Old 05-05-2016, 11:38 AM
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Jaime, I too would be willing to send you eBay purchases. If I can help in any way, feel free to PM or email me.

We are a brotherhood and must stick together.
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