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Old 03-06-2011, 11:44 PM
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Question recoil springs/suppression question.

Hello boys,
Ive been chasing a dream for the past year or so and I finally sent the money off to get it a .22 suppressor and M&P 15-22 MOE. ever since I saw the 15-22 it was a got to have it moment and I collect Russian surplus firearms lol, just a sweet rifle.
recently though I have been reading issues with the 15-22 ejection port bark / chamber blasts. like the recoil spring on the bolt gets weak and will not hold the bolt shut right as the round ignites. It opens prematurely and lets out loud gasses as the recoil process starts sorta thing so I was wondering if there were any mods or reinforcement springs/buffers you could get in order to get it back to staple gun mode
Thanks for the help!
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Old 03-07-2011, 06:47 AM
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I've had my 15-22 for a year and a half with well over 2000 rounds through it. Recoil spring is still doing it's job just fine. What you probably read concerned out of battery firing. That will happen on occassion in .22 semi-autos, but are not real common. I've only had it happen to me once in many years of firing .22 semi-autos and that time it was not in the 15-22. Don't worry about it and just enjoy the 15-22 when you get it.
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:34 PM
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I do wish that was the case but multiple members on silencertalk are telling me the same thing and end up selling the 15-22 because of it. so i wanted to come here for advice or aftermarket springs so i can replace when necessary. Its either the m&p 15-22 or id have to spring for a cmmg .22 Quebec-A and I really would prefer the MOE against the latter.

thanks again,

suhkoi
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:25 PM
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What cans are being used that folks are complaining about?

I have a YHM Wraith that works great with the 15-22. No recoil spring problem. Nothing is barking. Works great on the Sig522 too. That said, the Wraith is a larger sized 1.25in instead of the typical 1in .22 can.... which works out to be a significant volume increase for the same length can (+50% more volume). So maybe the pressure is greater with the little 1in cans that is creating an issue? I've been told that with cans... size matters.

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Old 03-07-2011, 03:49 PM
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If you do end up having issues with the spring not providing enough power you can try to add spacers to the rod it sits on.

I'm not sure if during recoil the spring binds, but if not than any extra room taken up by a small washer or something similar will increase compression and give you a little bit more resistance.

You also might be able to call a company like Wolff that makes a ton of different springs and see if they have something very similar. I doubt S&W makes their own springs, but I have no idea who the OEM would be for the 15-22.
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:18 PM
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Ive heard (and seen vid) from people who use the horrible tac 65 up to the silencerco sparrow ( old version ) and gemtech outback II. they all sounded very nice expect for the tac lol and all complained about the same thing. size matters yes but also the baffle design does as well for blowback and things and I have found that liberty kodiak TL which is 6.5 x 1 has superior design probably due to its length and mono core instead of k baffle and can handle blowback better than the tac which was probably why there was more noise in the bolt chatter.

I was thinking about putting a thick rubber o ring at the end to act as a spacer and buffer and maybe that would help with some extra spring . (modification url removed, can provide through other means) also wanted to ask if 500 shipped was reasonable for an M&P 15-22 MOE dark earth?

Last edited by suhkoi; 03-08-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suhkoi View Post
Ive heard (and seen vid) from people who use the horrible tac 65 up to the silencerco sparrow ( old version ) and gemtech outback II. they all sounded very nice expect for the tac lol and all complained about the same thing. size matters yes but also the baffle design does as well for blowback and things and I have found that liberty kodiak TL which is 6.5 x 1 has superior design probably due to its length and mono core instead of k baffle and can handle blowback better than the tac which was probably why there was more noise in the bolt chatter.
Liberty is just a few miles from me. I've been to see Dave and have shot a 15-22 with all his 22 cans. He makes nice stuff.
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:37 AM
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oh yes I find he makes very high quality products and even offers to redo other companies cans which just shows the kind of a guy he is, I know someone that is real close with Dave that has been talking with me over the past few months about the cans/other information... and gave me video of his FA m-16 with liberty cans and that's what got me interested in them .

Hopefully I can find a way to make the mp 15-22 work out with some spring work.

Thanks for the help.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suhkoi View Post
oh yes I find he makes very high quality products and even offers to redo other companies cans which just shows the kind of a guy he is, I know someone that is real close with Dave that has been talking with me over the past few months about the cans/other information... and gave me video of his FA m-16 with liberty cans and that's what got me interested in them .

Hopefully I can find a way to make the mp 15-22 work out with some spring work.

Thanks for the help.
Having custom designed, built, and used, suppressors for many years, for myself and for various government and law enforcement agencies; I can tell you right now that if the weapon does not function properly with the suppressor without having to modify the weapon to make it work with the suppressor (other than mounting sometimes needed) then you have the wrong suppressor for the weapon no matter how much its hyped or how good someone says it is.

Last edited by Foxtrot; 03-08-2011 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxtrot View Post
Having custom designed, built, and used, suppressors for many years, for myself and for various government and law enforcement agencies; I can tell you right now that if the weapon does not function properly with the suppressor without having to modify the weapon to make it work with the suppressor (other than mounting sometimes needed) then you have the wrong suppressor for the weapon no matter how much its hyped or how good someone says it is.
thats what im hoping for with the new baffle design and dimensions of the kodiak tl, right now its the host in question with the recoil spring, even after multiple suppressors...and the TL surpasses them all hopefully i can get a demo and get back to you guys. (wraith left out of comparison due to proper functioning.)

thanks again.
just thought i would question the masters on the mp 15-22. have one lined up already just needs funds story of my life...
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Old 03-08-2011, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by suhkoi View Post
just thought i would question the masters on the mp 15-22. have one lined up already just needs funds story of my life...
By the way... which can did you decide upon? That way we can all tell you it's the worst you could have possibly picked.

If you picked one from Liberty I think you'll like it. Dave's got a 15-22 so I'm sure he puts all his cans on it to ensure all is well. Here is a video of Dave with his 15-22 and a Liberty Essence.... http://www.libertycans.net/essence.html

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-08-2011 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:33 PM
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I had the chamber blast issues with my gun using a suppressor....I switched from the old style bolt spring to the new blue one and it seemed tohelp ...but occasionally I still get a blast here and there....I run the remington subs and they are whisper quiet and maintain reasonable velocity for shooting out to 100-150 yds...
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:01 PM
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I had the chamber blast issues with my gun using a suppressor....I switched from the old style bolt spring to the new blue one and it seemed tohelp ...but occasionally I still get a blast here and there....I run the remington subs and they are whisper quiet and maintain reasonable velocity for shooting out to 100-150 yds...
What sound suppressor are you using?

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-08-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:56 PM
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Not even legal to use one in this State... legal to have and own, but can't use it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:32 AM
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check out Red Jacket fire arms. they make suppressors. and have a discovery tv show. cool tv program
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:46 AM
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foxtrot I will be the first to admit that you know more about these things than I do, Ive spent a few months on fourms discussing which suppressor and why, it boiled down to user serviceability due to how dirty .22s can get and being able to throw them in the dip, which stainless steel is needed for. Another reason is his baffle design is top notch for eliminating FRP and blowback..Blast chamber that doesn't expose any of the tube to the wear and tear or pressure, not the gun but dont kill the messenger we could probably PM all day lol. im just tellin you what I remember

maybe TI throws out a different tone than the aluminum cans?( the essence is basically a TL but different tone and finish), that I am not sure of but i do know that dave tends to build his cans like a tank lol and great service.
I have video on youtube of the kodiak steel version on a big 5 50 rnd FA mag dump and tested heat (565F) and dissipation,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0aeeXMSXlQ ( have gotten permission by owner to post )
To each their own and it all depends on use i guess...

Liberty Kodiak TL is what I am going with I think I will add springs and an Oring or rubber grommet buffer.

red jacket measures their suppressors with a karaoke mic >.< and shotguns measure at 150dB plus being in college = ramen noodle budget

Last edited by suhkoi; 03-09-2011 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:29 AM
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I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Uhhh, I soak my aluminum cans all the time for cleaning with no ill effects. Stainless is not needed for that, a change in cleaning fluids used it needed. I use ed's red for my aluminum cans all the time with no problem.

I'm still mystified over the use of a stainless steel core in a .22 only can. Do me a favor will you - when you first get the can take it apart and examine the core closely to know whats there and how it looks. Then after you fire maybe 500 rounds thru it, take it apart again and look for any scratches, dings, divots, pits, especially at the edges of the bore hole center where the bullet passes through. The holes should still be clean and sharp at the edges with stainless steel in a .22 can, and there should be no wear at all at the hole edges under .22 use in a properly designed can using stainless steel as there is just not the conditions there which would cause such to stainless. Let me know what you find, if there is any wear of those edges, then i'll know why the stainless steel was used.

Last edited by Foxtrot; 03-09-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:58 PM
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I can do you one better I talk to the owner of the videos very frequently and can ask him about his .22 cans, I think he has a few TL's, stainless Kodiaks and one essence from Liberty along with their .223 cans, he also has a .9 can for his FA mac-10 or 11 cant remember and he can chime in for you. or maybe chattanooga can drive to liberty for us lol

Thanks for the help foxtrot I will get back to you, or maybe get him to come to the fourms and post a bit.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:42 PM
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I
I'm still mystified over the use of a stainless steel core in a .22 only can.
The Wraith is stainless steel. Yankee Hill Machine says it has a stainless steel blast baffle to endure erosion from full-auto fire and resist lead buildup.

Suhkoi, I was at the range a couple weeks ago with a guy who had a new Kodiak. It worked just fine....

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-09-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by suhkoi View Post
I can do you one better I talk to the owner of the videos very frequently and can ask him about his .22 cans, I think he has a few TL's, stainless Kodiaks and one essence from Liberty along with their .223 cans, he also has a .9 can for his FA mac-10 or 11 cant remember and he can chime in for you. or maybe chattanooga can drive to liberty for us lol

Thanks for the help foxtrot I will get back to you, or maybe get him to come to the fourms and post a bit.
That would be nice, but i'd rather get a first hand view from you after actual use if thats ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
The Wraith is stainless steel. Yankee Hill Machine says it has a stainless steel blast baffle to endure erosion from full-auto fire and resist lead buildup.

Suhkoi, I was at the range a couple weeks ago with a guy who had a new Kodiak. It worked just fine....
Its not so much as mystified, as it is wondering over the need for such I guess. It just seems a bit much for a .22 can. Blast baffle, well yes stainless steel is pretty common for blast, I can understand that because of the heat, pressure, and even gas velocity, encounted basically right at the barrel exit, but thats a different matter and is acceptable there. A whole mono core in stainless steel though seems just too much for a .22 only can. Oh well.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-09-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:44 PM
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I am months and months away from getting it, I just sent the check to my SOT to order from Liberty so the can wont even be made for another 3 weeks or so I will let you know if I can remember lol It seems that in other fourms aluminum cans are frowned upon and stainless needs to be the first requirement thats what ive seen at least and whats why silencerco just trashed their old sparrow for new SS baffles.

being months away is why I offered the advice from someone close with the company and knows their baffle design very well and has tested with full auto and so on yadda yadda.

Thanks again for the input, its pretty sweet you design cans and baffles too

Im still up in the air against MP 15-22 and CMMG Quebec-A but that MOE is just sweet and 100 less for me to spend on glass
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:29 AM
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I thought I'd pop in and add some pics. I'm a silencer addict of sorts and was really a .45 addict prior to cans..(Love my Smith and Wesson model .745's..have 3..) But when I got that model 41 threaded for a can that was it. Game over..Dozen more rimfire hosts including an H&R M-16 with the sole purpose of rimfire.

I'm off the opinion that the tax stamp isn't going to stay at 200 bucks forever, and when it doesn't the silencer game is over. Sure some companies have military contracts but that won't pay the electric bill without the general public. So the fun is over.

I don't believe AL has any use at all in cans. My Multimount after only 400 rounds showed severe erosion on the blast baffle with the LID. I put another 600 rounds through it on my Mac in Full auto and with that mount allowing the blast to open up the erosion stopped. But I still sent it to Liberty to have the blast baffle duplicated into Steel and made take apart. (Neither Dave or myself knew the endcap was just threaded on then)

The TL at a mere 6 ounces I wouldn't describe as overbuilt. yes it will last millions of rounds that your great great grandkids will be using, but is neither a larger OD or to heavy. It is a bit longer than some but that is part of the lack of blowback built into the design. Silencers by nature really gun up the works so to find a design that the host weapon runs cleaner with the can on than off is unheard of. No other can that I'm aware of can do that.

Sukhoi was reffering to the dreaded "dip" 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and vinegar that some use to remove lead and will also dissolve AL. So far no one has found anything in the silencer community that will clean cans by soaking. (other than that mix) But even carbon has proven impossible. We have played with Ultrasonics, Kroil in a bag in the tumbler..You name it..So all ears to hear something that would work! It seems like take apart is the only solution and is really fine..But even K baffles (primitive idiotic invention) are such a dread to clean when you can even take them out. Granted with the collection I have now a bead blaster is in my future but I hate to take up more real estate here for a one purpose machine. Plus all my K's and AL monocores either are or have been anodized..so not much help there.

Here' some pics..You can see Liberty's work has already been copied now so its getting out there.
The TL centered had over 9000 rounds through it at the time of this pic. You could still see the tool marks from the day it was made under a loupe. 100,000 rounds and toss it on the dip and no one would ever be able to tell if you ever fired it. Though helps if the tube is still in the white..just run some steel wool over it.The Essence (Top) is all TI..The TL (center) is exactly the same baffle design just steel and the Steel version (bottom) has both a steel tube and core..Rated for Hornet and 5.7. You'll notice the baffles are thicker for the higher rating..weighs in close to 9 ounces!! The TL can handle both but is not rated for it because of reloaders like me that push the limits.

My opinion and as a student of these things. The most perfect design ever made. Not only is the TL the quietest rimfire can but has the best tone..some meter very close but its a tone game when you get under a 120 db's..Essence and TL meter exactly the same but the Essence sounds better (I don't really count the Essence as a production can because of the cost..its for just us nuts)..But the lack of blowback is what sets this can apart..Sure you can scrape it clean with just a knife..and take it apart in 10 seconds..But no blowing **** back into the action is what keeps us high volume shooters in love!

Speaking of my Gunsmith just got 32 cases (yes cases!) of 0035 in..I'm gonna go broke..This is the last of it forever..though they said that the last 4 runs..

Told you Sukhoi that the M&P was just fine.. These guys love em..Thanks for the heads up to the forum..You only know me as a silencer guy..But a die hard Smith and Wesson fan..Even have a model 53.




After the 250 round dump you saw on youtube plus another 350 rounds.



AL blast baffle being duplicated..BAD BAD material!! for a lifetime toy..If we could keep extras on hand and with no fears of the laws changing then who would care.

Last edited by KodiakChondro; 03-10-2011 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:25 PM
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Yeah, what he said lol.

I think I will give dave a try and see what he says about his mp 15 22 with the kodiak TL or have chondro stop by. then see what mods should be made.

thanks again,

Suhkoi.
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