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  #1  
Old 04-09-2011, 09:55 AM
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Default Muzzle break on a 15-22. REALLY?

Edit title: Muzzle brakes

Okay, I got a new Battlecomp 2.0 Muzzle brake for my AR so the Surefire MB556K move over to the MP15-22.

Honestly, I only put it on there for looks thinking there wouldn't be any performance enhancements. For those who don't know, muzzle brakes are design to reduce muzzle climb and recoil. But on a .22LR I didn't think it would do anything since there is very little recoil and muzzle rise. Plus the brakes are designed for the .223/5.56mm

Well, I thought wrong. Here are pics of what I did yesterday. I used both on the 1 Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22. one with the original bird cage and the other with the Surefire MB556K. I did 5 rapid fire pulls, 25 rounds @ 50 feet.

Most brakes are about $150. The KAC triple Tap is about $400, but that's another story.







up to you guys. This was just shock discovery to me, and if you are that type of shooter worth the purchase.

Last edited by SU17; 04-10-2011 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:23 AM
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Well it is definitely longer than the stock bird cage flash hider so I could see it adding length and therefore adding to the accuracy.

But my real question is, it sounded like you were using two DIFFERENT rifles? Were these two different rifles, or the same rifle and you just switched the flash hider?

I have seen differences in rifles like this before, just because it is the same gun does not necessarily mean they are built to the same tolerances. When building high production .22 caliber rifles like this the tolerances can be very different.

None the less, your new flash hider is very cool and obviously improves the grouping on your rig.

Thanks for sharing
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:05 AM
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I changed mine based purely on looks. Well, and the ad claimed that if I ran out of ammo, and it became a knock-down, drag out fight, I could always just gouge the squirrel in the eye with it.

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Old 04-09-2011, 11:26 AM
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Just a guess here... but you seem to have everything but the kitchen sink clamped onto the 15-22 with the Surefire. Do you have so much on the other 15-22? Rifle weight can make a BIG difference. In any event, you might try swapping muzzle devices on each rifle at the range while leaving everything else alone and compare. My guess is that the muzzle device has little impact. But if it does...

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 04-09-2011 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:55 AM
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sorry if I worded it wrong... forgot to proof read it

1 S&W M&P 15-22

I actually did the Surefire MB556K first and was impressed. Then I took it off and put on the original bird cage that came with it just to see the comparison and see if actually did improve the grouping.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:56 AM
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you think that is long. The MB556AR was the first design.



more of a competition brake
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:01 PM
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for those not liking the style of this break,

this is the company I used for my AR about the same length as a standard bird cage A1/A2

Battle Comp Enterprises, LLC

unfortunately I can't test it on the M&P 15-22 because the BC 2.0 is pinned on my middy



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Old 04-09-2011, 12:13 PM
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Very cool results then if this was on the same rifle and the only difference was the flash hider.

Cool test, thanks for sharing.
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spleify View Post
Well it is definitely longer than the stock bird cage flash hider so I could see it adding length and therefore adding to the accuracy.
The added length won't add accuracy because you are not:
- adding to the length of the sight radius (not relevant if an optic is being used)
or
- adding to the length of the barrel (i.e. lengthening the part of the barrel that has rifling)

Once the projectile leaves the crown of the barrel, the muzzle device is no longer going to have an effect on the projectile.

Last edited by CPTBeaker; 04-09-2011 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 01:20 PM
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All I gathered is blah, blah, blah SU17 has a sick looking gun. I think I've seen uglier supermodels...
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Old 04-09-2011, 03:15 PM
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You guys really need to pick up Hatchers Handbook.. Hatcher was the millitaries go to guy for 60 years. If they want to know if you fired a 30 cal 1919 straight up in the air would the bullet be leathal when it returned to earth. He answered the question and the answer is no its not. The book post many of his findings so basicly its a book of facts and a very interesting read. He addresses this very question in his book showing groups fired with and without muzzle devices. And he stated that its not some magical taming of gasses or anything cool like that but simply dampening of vibrations in the barrel.. so called "tuning" if you will... Your break adds weight to the end of the barrel, the weight you added just so happen to be the right weight and is allowing less vibration in the barrel while allowing it to settle in the same place for the next shot. kinda like target shooters adding pads to the end of their stocks to apply slight upwards pressure on the barrel, you are adding a downward pressure to yours
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Old 04-09-2011, 03:55 PM
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makes sense.
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Old 04-09-2011, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELT_FED View Post
You guys really need to pick up Hatchers Handbook.. Hatcher was the millitaries go to guy for 60 years. If they want to know if you fired a 30 cal 1919 straight up in the air would the bullet be leathal when it returned to earth. He answered the question and the answer is no its not. The book post many of his findings so basicly its a book of facts and a very interesting read. He addresses this very question in his book showing groups fired with and without muzzle devices. And he stated that its not some magical taming of gasses or anything cool like that but simply dampening of vibrations in the barrel.. so called "tuning" if you will... Your break adds weight to the end of the barrel, the weight you added just so happen to be the right weight and is allowing less vibration in the barrel while allowing it to settle in the same place for the next shot. kinda like target shooters adding pads to the end of their stocks to apply slight upwards pressure on the barrel, you are adding a downward pressure to yours
*Ding* We have a winner! Barrels are made out of hard steel, they vibrate when a round goes through the barrel, much like a tuning fork. This particular break seems to me taming the vibration of the barrel. It is working, that much is for sure...
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:01 PM
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Are the vibrations from a .22LR going to cause the 15-22 barrel to vary bullet placement 3-4" at distances under 20 yards? That would require almost noticeable flex in the steel, not just a resonance that usually counts for variations in sub-MOA groups at much longer distances.

The added weight may cause a change in vibration frequency, but adding weight to the end of a cantilever usually doesn't add to the stability unless you've stumbled on a near-perfect setup.

My guess is the brake (not a break as that would be bad) is doing its job and directing the gasses in such a way as to stabilize the small amount of muzzle flip that these rifles do have and cause the recoil to act more linearly. The factory flash hider is NOT a brake of any kind. There is a reason these muzzle devices cost a hundred dollars or more and the A1 flash hider can be picked up for less than $5.

Edit to add:
.22 rifles also haven't been traditionally shot in "tactical" scenarios or setups, so I doubt many people have even attempted to put a working brake on one. Especially since when shooting for accuracy you shoot slowly with a heavy barrel where recoil and barrel harmonics are ignored or mitigated.

Last edited by Rustpot; 04-09-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:41 PM
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Here guys.. it will explain everything

watch this video of the Surefire MB556K

YouTube - SureFire Muzzle Brake video
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:49 PM
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I'll go the other way and ring the Bonk bell.

While the extra weight and gas direction of the brake may have helped the shooter maintain steadier more consistent aim during 'rapid fire', I have difficulty with the notion there is (as indicated on the targets for comparison) 3-4 inches of shot dispersion caused by barrel harmonics to dampen out at a mere 50 feet.

Since most of these rifles shoot 2in groups at 50 yards, how is it possible to take out 3-4 inches of barrel harmonics at 50 feet?

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 04-09-2011 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:44 PM
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Yes I agree that there is very little vibration in a 22. But look at it from this stand point. You have a piece of plastic sandwiched between two pieces of metal and the part inwhich that stablizes is nearly 16 inches long and you have ahold of the first inch. My money is on the fact that added weight makes the barrel settle to the same point after each shot. (Lowest point of travel) which makes the gun more repeatable. Everytime a rifle is fired the barrel whips this may be very little on the 15/22 but if the barrel settles to a different point everytime its fired it doesn't matter how good the barrel is.. id also say that if a man took a torque wrench and played with the torque on the barrel nut to tune it to the round being fired he would be amazed
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:13 PM
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I'm with ChattPhil. I have a Browning 7Mag with the BOSS so understand barrel harmonics and have tested many o'loads. IMO the results are phenomenal, almost unrealistic at 50 feet. I would like to see the results from a bench under controlled fire. Grrrrr, “Honey I need the check book!!"
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPTBeaker View Post
The added length won't add accuracy because you are not:
- adding to the length of the sight radius (not relevant if an optic is being used)
or
- adding to the length of the barrel (i.e. lengthening the part of the barrel that has rifling)

Once the projectile leaves the crown of the barrel, the muzzle device is no longer going to have an effect on the projectile.
To add to that even if your barrel is longer does not mean it will be more accurate, in fact theoretically a shorter barrel will be more accurate due to the bullet being in the barrels for a shorter time so there is less time for the barrel to move while the bullet is in it.
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:57 PM
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I'm just a n00b here, but have been shootin' rifles for a long time. . .

Seems to me there is much over-thinking taking place here.

The guys said rapid fire, so it would seem pretty simply that muzzle rise/flip/whatever you like to call it is being lessened in the very brief time allowed between shots.

As for barrel length, there is a reason sniper rifles have long barrels. And even at the much lower muzzle velocity of the .22lr, the round has left the rifle behind long before the barrel rises.

And regarding harmonics or vibrations, it is my understanding that these phenomena are more meaningful when measured between controlled shots; a locked down bench rest for sighting or checking accuracy from a bench rest when testing a particular round for example; one has to chalk up an unknown percentage of variance to these effects, the rest being the rifle/shooter/ammo.

So, again, in the OP's scenario, I would have to say it is purely muzzle rise/flip. The gun is obviously moving around so much during rapid fire bursts that I don't see why would you even care about vibration/harmonics?
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:10 PM
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I understand he said "rapid fire". Why care about vibration/harmonics? Hello!!!...= better accuarcy! And if these results are the same from bench, I WANT ONE!!!
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
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As for barrel length, there is a reason sniper rifles have long barrels. And even at the much lower muzzle velocity of the .22lr, the round has left the rifle behind long before the barrel rises.
You bet there is - velocity, not accuracy. The difference in barrel length on accuracy is minescule but theoreticlly shorter is more accurate. Look at benchrest guys, they shoot short barrels so that there is less barrel movement. And yes the bullet is gone before the barrel rises but the barrel can and does move from the time the trigger is pulled and the bullet leaves the end of the barrel. A couple inches at 1500fps+ in like I say minescule but if you are looking to ring every thousanth of an inch out of your group it can make a difference.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelman View Post
You bet there is - velocity, not accuracy. The difference in barrel length on accuracy is minescule but theoreticlly shorter is more accurate. Look at benchrest guys, they shoot short barrels so that there is less barrel movement. And yes the bullet is gone before the barrel rises but the barrel can and does move from the time the trigger is pulled and the bullet leaves the end of the barrel. A couple inches at 1500fps+ in like I say minescule but if you are looking to ring every thousanth of an inch out of your group it can make a difference.
Well, I'm certainly no expert, perhaps there is a middle ground sweet spot too? I know it's more about sight radius with pistols, but from what I read, a 20in 22 rifle will generally be more accurate than say a 16in. Now you got me wondering lol.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:41 PM
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Ah didn't see the rapid fire part.. ill have to agree weight on the end of a barrel does seem to steady a rifle off hand but id say its mor of a muzzle flip thing than anything else... shorter barrels are usually used because of less vibration and less chances of defects in the rifling and lands themselves with that said sniper rifles have long enough barrels to sqeeze every last fps out of a round just to make it flatter shooting and a more reliable burn everytime (less differences between fps shot to shot) but with custom hand loads where you don't need 4000 fps to shoot 1600 yds a shorter barrel is usually prefered.. or atleast this is my understanding if more was better then bench rifles would have 30ft barrels on them..lol
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:42 PM
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I understand he said "rapid fire". Why care about vibration/harmonics? Hello!!!...= better accuarcy! And if these results are the same from bench, I WANT ONE!!!
I would definitely care about harmonics under the right circumstances. I just don't think that during rapid fire, in any gun, that it matters enough to warrant consideration. The movement of the gun caused by recoil has a 1000 times more impact on accuracy than vibration. Like the other poster said, for squeezing out every 1000th of an in, you bet! But how you going to do that during rapid fire?

Either way though, I agree with you. . I want one too! But that probably won't happen any time soon lol.

And I'd have to agree with BeltFed, he most certainly know more than I. 30 foot barrels!

Last edited by awake33; 04-09-2011 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:02 PM
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okay well this got put in whole different direction... I thought you guys watched the surefire video I posted and understand what I was explaining

I actually went out and took all my accessories off and left the A front sight and rear MBUS..

Yes rapid fire of 25 shots @ 50 feet

Left is the standard bird cage and right is with the MB556K



sorry I didn't have anymore of the same target paper available
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
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Look at benchrest guys, they shoot short barrels so that there is less barrel movement. .
What barrel length are being used by ARA benchrest champions?
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Old 04-10-2011, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
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okay well this got put in whole different direction... I thought you guys watched the surefire video I posted and understand what I was explaining

I actually went out and took all my accessories off and left the A front sight and rear MBUS..

Yes rapid fire of 25 shots @ 50 feet

Left is the standard bird cage and right is with the MB556K



sorry I didn't have anymore of the same target paper available
Pretty definitive to me.
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Old 04-10-2011, 12:26 AM
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Speaking of long barrels, oversized scopes and slow bullets..;-) phil I've got a new toy you need to play with.. that mkII trr-sr is crazy.. with aguilla standards at 40rds a 10 shot group looks like 3 holes.. can't wait to shoot it at 250..
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Old 04-10-2011, 08:20 AM
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I gotta get up there to check out that new rifle... and meet your son.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:08 AM
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Yes u do.. we r going to try and get some trigger time in Monday or Tuesday with myfriend that does the sniper comps.. he is all tore up they r having a 1600yd bonus target this weekend at the shoot in ky
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
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Yes u do.. we r going to try and get some trigger time in Monday or Tuesday with myfriend that does the sniper comps.. he is all tore up they r having a 1600yd bonus target this weekend at the shoot in ky
1600... Way out of my league. I'm just learning how to shoot at 200-500.... I could sure use some pointers from you guys. Will talk on PM so to not clutter up this thread.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 04-10-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awake33 View Post
I would definitely care about harmonics under the right circumstances. I just don't think that during rapid fire, in any gun, that it matters enough to warrant consideration. The movement of the gun caused by recoil has a 1000 times more impact on accuracy than vibration. Like the other poster said, for squeezing out every 1000th of an in, you bet! But how you going to do that during rapid fire?

Either way though, I agree with you. . I want one too! But that probably won't happen any time soon lol.

And I'd have to agree with BeltFed, he most certainly know more than I. 30 foot barrels!


I am totally in agreeance I didn't see the rapid fire in the original post and as soon as I seen that this wasn't out of bags all arguements from me r off. Heck my groups vary that much between mags.. there are many more on here that know way more than me all I was stating was Hatchers findings that a certain mass at a certain point of the barrel reducess vibrations and will tighten groups up.. With that said no bags no test period.. I really got in to those books a few years back and read a bunch of therories and thoughts but Hatcher really puts his money where his mouth is so to speak. And the only reason I was reading was purely selfish, I was getting beat in matches and I wanted to know why.. when I knew my gun was built to tighter specs.. but it was all in tuning
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Old 04-10-2011, 05:41 PM
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Those are great results. Is there notable difference if not shot rapidly? How much is that muzzle break and is there a link to it?
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:15 PM
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Just to clarify some folks have been using flash supressor and muzzle brake as if they were one and the same - which as far as I am aware is not correct. The flash supressor, well supresses flash, which unless you are shooting at night is really not an issues - especially with the 22LR. The muzzle break on the other hand is a device that diverts propellant gases thereby reducing perceived recoil, and muzzle rise.

Also while I am sure barrel harmonics exist - going back to my college physics I am pretty sure that in order to counter balance the harmonics you would need a very specific 'weight' which would vary depending on barrel length/weight/thickness/ammo and would not be something that would would be 'plug and play' between rifles.
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:02 PM
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I will post some pics of targets with and withour our muzzle brake. The results are as dramatic as previous pics.
AM1 Muzzle Brake [AM1] - $39.00 : Tacticool22, Tactical .22 Rifle Parts and Accessories
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:28 PM
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That's a pretty good price..
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:36 AM
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I run a PWS FSC556 on on of my ARs and it rocks, but the best reasonably priced compensator for the AR-15 is the Rainier Arms XTC for $57. It would probably work good on the 15-22 if you thought you needed a compensator.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:21 AM
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I will post some pics of targets with and withour our muzzle brake. The results are as dramatic as previous pics.
AM1 Muzzle Brake [AM1] - $39.00 : Tacticool22, Tactical .22 Rifle Parts and Accessories
what's the diameter of the brake?
IDPA only allows 1" diameter.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:30 PM
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It's the same as an A2 birdcage .870
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:41 AM
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Wow, this is news to me, a 22LR with a muzzle brake that works taming the recoil of the gases from a 22LR???? I'm going to have to do this test myself. I can see this on a 22 Magnum, more powder, more gases, but a 22LR... You see I am learning something new every day...
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:50 PM
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Are these ok for compliant states? How does one put these on?
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:12 PM
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Are these ok for compliant states? How does one put these on?
It's good in CA. They should just screw on & off.
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  #44  
Old 10-20-2011, 08:16 PM
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One question, were both shot at the same speed, or did you take more time, slowed down with the muzzle brake? Just wondering, again hard to believe the gases were high enough to control the tip, but I've seen movement on a 22lr, so there is some. I've got two Jerry Miculek compensators, I will be swapping one over to the M&P 15/22 when it comes in next week. This I have t see myself to believe...
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  #45  
Old 11-09-2011, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
What barrel length are being used by ARA benchrest champions?
Joe Friedrich's 9850 all time best 22LR score was shot with a custom 16.5" barrel with both a tuner and a SIMS Barrel De-Resonator on it.
As I once said match ammo powder is fully burned in about a 16" barrel length.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Aceman58 View Post
Wow, this is news to me, a 22LR with a muzzle brake that works taming the recoil of the gases from a 22LR???? I'm going to have to do this test myself. I can see this on a 22 Magnum, more powder, more gases, but a 22LR... You see I am learning something new every day...
I know for a fact that with compensated 22 rimfire pistols, especially lightweight ones built for speed steel, the faster the ammo the better the compensators work. At anything up to HV rounds whether they work or not does not make as much difference as the weight of the gun. Once you start shooting 1400+ FPS the recoil and muzzle flip reduction of the comp starts to work. At CCI-Stinger velocites that is the flatest shooting rimfire pistol setup you can put together. Unfortunately most venues now frown on using Stingers in matches due to excessive bullet velocity.
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  #47  
Old 11-12-2011, 04:43 PM
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I ASKED before but no answer that I can remember- are there any muzzle brakes or compensators (BUT NOT FLASH HIDERS) that work for non threaded barrels? I live in NJ and cannot have flash hiders nor threaded barrels, but would not mind a decorative and tacticool / blacktical ( if not at all? functional?) muzzle device... the only thing so far I can see is a $100+ fugazy suppressor.. maybe I'll do this but would not mind a cool muzzle device / brake / compensation devvice.
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  #48  
Old 11-12-2011, 05:30 PM
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ScrapmasterFlex check out Tacticool22.com - Parts, Tools, Accessories, and Resources for 22 Caliber Firearms and see if anything, like the threaded barrel end, works for you. Then you can put on any muzzle brake that the State approves??? Good luck in NJ
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  #49  
Old 11-13-2011, 12:07 AM
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Got mine, installed a Jerry Miculek, and correct, it does just fine with it on, even less recoil and faster follow ups..

[IMG][/IMG]
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  #50  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticool22 View Post
I will post some pics of targets with and withour our muzzle brake. The results are as dramatic as previous pics.
AM1 Muzzle Brake [AM1] - $39.00 : Tacticool22, Tactical .22 Rifle Parts and Accessories

Part apparently isn't available anymore.
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223, 22lr, browning, compensator, m16, model 16, mp15, rimfire, ruger, suppressor, surefire, tactical, tacticool

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Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 Thread, Muzzle break on a 15-22. REALLY? in Smith & Wesson Rifles and Shotguns; Edit title: Muzzle brakes Okay, I got a new Battlecomp 2.0 Muzzle brake for my AR so the Surefire MB556K ...
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