My 11 year old son and I like to compete with a dueling tree. Basically, it is a reactive steel target with the paddles swinging from one side to the other as they are hit. There are a total of 6 paddles, and when the game starts, there are three on each side.

After each shooter shooting 10 rounds, the shooter with the most paddles on their side looses.

My son continuously beats me at this game!

So I took his Savage Arms Mark II to the range and compared it to my 15-22.

I was able to knock out the bulls eye section clear off the target; the grouping was so tight with the Savage Arms rifle.

With the 15-22, the groupings were close, but nothing like the Savage Arms rifle. I had several flyers whick made the grouping look like a splatter pattern compared to the nice tight grouping of the savage arms.

I now understand why he is beating me so soundly at the dueling tree.

Being new to the sport, I don't understand why the big difference in accuracy.

So, the savage arms has a longer barrel and it is a bolt rifle. The guys at the range say that a bolt action rifle is much more accurate than a semi auto.

I am bummed out that my son has a much more accurate rifle!

Any suggestions on a semi-auto, 'tactical' type of 22LR rifle with accuracy like the Savage arms?

Thanks from a newbie....

Andrew

there is a m&p version thats a performance model i think that has better accuracy
but if its just an accurate rifle you want then why by a fun gun like and m&p there hardly sharp shooting guns

saying that i find mine very accurate with a good scope well for a tactical .22 it is

Yes, that's quite typical. My $99 Savage puts smaller groups on paper at 100 yards than my $450 15-22 at 50 yards. But I didn't buy the 15-22 for precision shooting.

Suggestions for other .22 black rifles? American Rifleman did a comparison of all the black rifles in their Dec issue. The Ruger, Remington and Sig522 performed well. Here is my Sig522 SWAT with a 4x scope at 50 yards slung over my range bag



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The first thing to look at is your ammunition. .22s are extremely ammo sensitive, one ammo may shoot great out of one rifle and very poorly out of another. Check out a bunch of different ammo an see which one your 15-22 likes best.

The other thing is Savage makes a very accurate rifle, you are going to be hard pressed to find any out of the box semi auto that can compete with it for less than double the cost of the Savage. If you want to compete with a bolt action .22 your best bet is to get a bolt action .22, I recommend a CZ 452 to compete with the Savage.

__________________
Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

A friend practically got hysterical when I called his military styled .22 autoloader a plinker, but it is less accurate than a 50-year-old Browning lightweight .22 autoloader I have.
You can get any number of bolt actions that will outshoot one.
A CZ, Kimber, Savage or Anschutz target bolt rifle will put all the bullets in one hole at 50 yrd off a rest for less money. For $2000, you can get a custom competition .22 autoloader based on the Ruger action that will not be quite as accurate as the bolt guns.

So whatever the 15-22 may be (bunch of fun) it is not even close to being a target rifle, and all those huge high power scopes some put on them is ridiculous. Set up a row of 6" plates at 50yds, use whatever ammo you find it likes best, and mow 'em down. Don't get in an accuracy contest with a bolt action. I have a 617 revolver that is as accurate as the 15-22.

__________________
Science plus Art

Yup,
While the S&W 15-22 is accurate in its own right, it wasn't really meant for precision shooting (PM excluded). It was meant for a fun, low ammo cost, ar-style good time. Try a few different ammos out and see if you can tighten up the groups. If you still dont like the results let me know. Ill trade you a Mark II for your 15-22 today

What an education!
I have a Leupold Mark 4 scope mounted on the 15-22, cost just as much as the rifle! Before that I had a cheap $79 scope. I thought that the reason it was all over the place had something to do with the scope.

The Savage Arms has a cheap 4X Simmons scope...go figure...

I really thought that accuracy was a factor of optics and a steady hand. I really wanted the 15-22 to be a tack driver at 100 yards. Now I understand why I am so frustrated trying to hit the dueling tree at 100 yards... Sometimes I hit, sometimes it flies all above, below, and to the sides....

So, the 15-22 for plinking fun - and I guess I need to get a bolt action if I want to stay up to par with my son....

Question - I also have the M&P15 V-Tac rifle. Does this also apply to the 223 bigger brother? I seem to get better results with it - I have attributed it to a faster and more powerful load, i.e. less drop. But maybe the big brother is different.

Thanks for all the responses

The 'newbie'...

Andrew

Move that Dueling Tree in from 100 to 50 yards and make the competition a timed event. Your 15-22 will be in it's element.

It was at 50 yards. His rifle was zeroed in at 50 and he soundly whooped my butt!

I, for challenge, shoot it at 100 yds. Or more like, try to shoot it at 100 yds.

I also noticed that sometimes I was unable to completely flip the paddle, I think the bullet had more fps coming out of the barrel of the savage versus the 15-22. Maybe because of the greater length.

Andrew

What Leupold Mark 4 did you buy for the price of a 15/22?

Mark 4 AR 4-12.

Without starting a debate on barrel length/velocity/velocity loss due to barrel friction after powder is spent/accuracy... on and on... I don't think that any velocity difference that might exist is an issue with flipping the paddles. Where the bullet strikes the paddle will make the most difference. If those paddles are about 2-2.5in you ought to be hitting them most every time from a supported position at 50 yards. Like Smith357 suggested, try some different ammo.

Man! I can't even blame FPS! I will have to live with realization that he is just that much better than me!

Wait, it's not him, it's the rifle! That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I too was disappointed when I first realized how much more accurate my thirty to fifty year old bolt-action 22lr and the Browning autoloader are than my MOE.

But, it saves me a ton of money when I feel like shooting a black gun since 5.56mm's aren't getting any cheaper, the MOE fits the bill. Plus, it's all decked out now with fun goodies.

Although I never forget to bring the bolt-action 22lr with cheap ten year old bulk ammo I use for some more accurate plinking.

__________________
Jeeps are my other addiction

Just checking because Leupold does not sell any Mark 4 scopes in the $500 range, or even close to the that range. I was hoping that you didn't say a Mark 4 3.5-10X as if you bought one of those for $500 you most likely would have got one of the counterfeit ones and not a real Mark 4.

BTW your scope is a Mark AR, not a Mark 4. I have one of the Mark AR 3-9x scopes and like it a lot, your 4-12x is also a very nice scope.

What's MOE?

does the barrel rifling have anything to do with this? seeing how its only 1- 15" twist. Wouldnt something that got more rotation on the bullet be more accurate like a 1-9"

In addition to ammo, the trigger can be a major factor on accuracy. Did you do any tuning of the 15-22 trigger?

Also, perhaps the major consideration in accuracy is who is behind the trigger. Perhaps you son is just a better shot??

Magpul Original Equipment

It's a version of the 15-22 with Magpul stock, pistol grip, and backup front/rear sights.

+1.

The accuracy of my 15-22 is very ammo dependent. With some ammo I'm lucky to get consistent 3" groups. With CCI Tactical, Winchester Super X (~1300 fps version), and Eley Purple box standard velocity I can get ~1.5 groups at 50yds (supported).

With the right ammo, this rifle is more accurate than I can shoot it. I'm the limiting factor.

I have a Ruger 10/22 that I upgraded with a bull barrel and did some trigger work. This particular gun is more accurate across a broader range of ammo than my 15-22, but it's not nearly as fun to shoot IMO. I'm not sure what the technical reason for the increased accuracy and why the ammo type is less critical in my 10/22 (it was just as accurate before I put the bull barrel on it - it just doesn't loose accuracy with a rapid succession of rounds). If I want to impress someone with my marksmanship, I'm going to use my 10/22.

The fun factor for me is with the 15-22.

I do forget sometimes!!! I have two Romanian M1969 trainers that I got for less than $60.00 each.
Shooting the cheap stuff, or any thing else they are accurate. I need to take them out more often.
Guy22

The only ammo I shoot is CCI mini mags, 36 HP and 40 Solids.

The issue with the paddles is that sometimes my hits won't flip them. My son's hits, on the other hand, always flip them. That is why I think the longer barrel is giving the bullet greater FPS. In the game, flips counts, hits don't.

I've also shot over 6k rounds through the 15-22, at first strictly CCI blazers, something like 1k in an afternoon, which really fouled the barrel.
I wonder If all the fouling and subsequent cleaning (once the brush got stuck inside, it was so fouled) has worn the barrel or damaged it lowering the accuracy.

The trigger is the stock one. My VTac has a JP trigger which is awesome. Are there any trigger kits that are just dropped in? I am not handy with tools at all!

Thanks

Andrew

Andrew,
Any small pin AR drop in trigger will work. There are dozens to choose from. Sky is the limit on price, but changing them out is pretty straight forward. Break open the rifle, push out the trigger pins and done.

GOOD QUESTION............

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I put this trigger in my 15-22 and am very happy with it. 3 1/2 -4lb pull, easy to install, modular, etc...

It's pricey just like all of the drop in triggers, but this is one of my few hobbies and relatively easy for me to justify.

The reasons I picked this trigger was the 'drop-in' fit, pull weight, and the trigger shape/size which is almost stock AR. The trigger size shape was important to me because it's what I'm familiar and comfortable with and didn't want to with anything narrower/straighter, etc. with a different feel.

CMC Triggers Tactical Drop-In Trigger Group Curved AR-15 Small Pin .154" Single Stage Matte - MidwayUSA



One thing to be aware of is that the stock AR trigger/hammer pins are held captive by the hammer/trigger springs. The pins are grooved and the spring legs fit in the groove. When you install a modular (i.e. one piece) drop-in like pictured above, the trigger and hammer springs no longer keep the pins captive. My trigger came with two pins. The pins had a cap on one end and a groove on the other end for small retaining clips. This is problematic on a 15-22 since the lower receiver is wider than a standard AR lower. The pins I got with my trigger were not long enough to put the retaining clips on. The pins did fit tight enough that they were not likely to walk out but I wanted a better solution than that.

I ended up getting some JP anti-walk pins which are basically a pin with a treaded hole in each end and two small cap screws. Something to consider if you get a drop-in kit.

http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.8.1.php

I also had flyers when first attempting to sight in my 15-22 with a 4 power BSA at 50 yards. Blaming the inaccuracies on the scope, I quickly mounted a Burris 3-9 on it from my .270. The only difference was the target was clearer and the flyers were more visible. Then I thought there had to be something going on with the barrel. I did remove he quadrail endcap for initial cleaning after purchase and I noticed it was applying quite a bit of upward pressure on the barrel. I simply removed it, and let me tell you, it was like I was shooting a whole different gun. Insead of leaving it out, I rolled up a sheet of 80 grip sandpaper and reemed out the endcap hole so I just cleared the barrel, all the way around. This way, if the quadrail flexed, it would only be 1/32" or so... I also did some trigger work. It felt like I was pulling a runner sled across a dirt road.

I have a high power scope on my 15-22 and I hit a pop bottle lid 3 times in a row at 60 yds.

Did this yesterday. 3 rds @ 100yds, Nikon 3X-9X Prostaff scope, bench, sandbag supported, CCI Mini-Mags, no wind, a little luck.

I think this rifle is plenty accurate, even in the hands of an amateur.

Be happy your son is a good shot, encourage that and maybe get him in the sport, something you can help him with.

Ammunition, try lots of brands. Mine really like the Bulk Federal. Just because a bullet is more expensive doesn't mean your gun will like it.

And then practice, practice, pratice.

My son is happy, although when we get done shooting he always says he's a terrible shot. I think he finds a real gun is quite different than his video games. I just tell him to keep practicing, it doesn't happen over night.

Jollymon,
Heres something else to consider, since in all the replys no one has mentioned this and its just my opinion! Rimfire actions headspace on the rim of the cartridge, whether its a bolt or a semi auto. I shot a lot of smallbore rifle with an Anshutz rifle while attached to the U.S. Navy shooting team. we sorted our match ammo according to its rim dimension and it eliminated flyers. then Eley ammo came out and at the time it was the ammo all competitors went too. One of the reasons for its accuracy was due to consistent rim thickness, you can still buy rim thickness gauges from sinclair International for like 31.95 and start sorting your ammo and your accuracy will get better! the other item you need to check on that 15-22 is barrel nut torque if this comes loose accuracy goes down hill.

I consider you the expert. Anshutz makes great .22lr rifles. I understand that most service teams use them now. What kind of matches did you Shoot? 3×20 sporter category or other?
How did the Navy do against the Army, and Marines?
Back in the day shooting 3 position with Winchester 52's and Winchester Match ammo. We used a very accurate high grade scale to weigh every round. Talking .1 of a gain here.
We would take 5 rounds of identical weight and put them in our blocks from heaviest to lightest.
Also would put all our ammo for the next days shoot in our freezer, so all the ammo was the same temp., at the time of shooting.
All we were doing was trying to take out what variables we could, and be consistent with what we had.
Sounds like you were doing the same.

With the M&P I just load CCI mini mags, and have fun!
Guy22

Guy22
When I first arrivved in San Diego the small arms training unit handed me a model 52 with adjustable tuners in the forend! I went to the first match at the LAR&R Club and one the shooters told me if I expected to do well I would need to get an anshutz or a BSA Martini so I bought 1 of each and never looked back. I shot a lot of the 3200 and 6400 matches and 3 position, at first I sorted the winchester match ammo but as soon as I started buying Eley Tennex I started winning! I have always thought that the Army team and the Marine team are the best and whichever one you choose to be first is more personal preference than anything because there can only be one winner. Sometimnes the Marines are first and sometimes the Army is first. I have my distinguished badge and won 1 of my medals at the nationals at camp perry 1st gold in the NTI. Its funny you mentioned keeping your ammo refrigerated cause I have done that many times and actually bought a styrofoam cooler and ice to keep the ammo coolwhile at a match shooting and yes it does make a difference. Thanks for jumping into this conversation it brought back lots of memories!

Try some Wolf Match Target. Made in Germany for over 100 years. Very accurate .22 ammunition.

+1 on the Wolf Match Target, I shoot a lot of it in a Kimber 82 in IR 50 matches and it flat out shoots!

Here's something to ponder: Comparing a bolt action to the M&P 15/22 is really not fare for the M&P. Bolt action rifles are built to be more accurate, the lock up is solid, speed is not part of the design. The M&P is more geared for semi-automatic combat shooting accuracy, in other words 3 to 4 inch spread for a semi-auto is considered pretty accurate, but not for a bolt action. So cut the M&P some slack, it is design as a combat weapon not bullseye...Combat is different for sure, dropping the threat is more important than scoring a 10...

I agree with aceman58. There is a army of gophers out there every spring. If I want to sniper them I use my Remington 541S bolt action and the body count is high ( 98% ). If I want to have some fun and give them a fighting chance I take the M&P 15-22 for some fun.

My thoughts exactly!

Bang for the buck Savage rifles are real shooters. They are famous for their accuracy versus price. I don't own a Savage and like many I have built 10/22's, 77/22's. Bottom line not many rifles today mach up to the Savage rifles. Due primarily to their new trigger design, barrel making process, and their price.

As someone already mentioned with the number of rounds you've put yours through plus you mentioned barrel fouling and getting a brush stuck at one time I'd definitely look into the torque of your barrel nut and maybe even have a trusted gunsmith give your weapon the once-over. Can't hurt and will give you peace of mind.

The gang mentioned in a round about way the steel gong problem but to put it more simply, since your 15-22 isn't quite the tack driver as your son's rifle, he's hitting it close enough to center each time that it's swinging it to score the wins. Your rifle has a bit of a spread and your self-admitted fliers so even if you're hitting the gong, you're not hitting it dead center to give it the "oomph" it needs to give you the win.

I'd be willing to bet that competition aside if you switch with your son now and then letting him use the 15-22 and you the bolt action, you'll beat him but he'll be begging you to give him the 15-22.

I think some of the guys here are using Red Dots to good effect up to 50 yards also, not sure about 100 though. Very fast acquisition of target and some of them even co-witness with your iron sights. Reason I mention it is by using a red dot vs. a magnified optic you may even the odds a bit as you'll be acquiring the target faster than your son and pinging the gong a few times to his one. Worth a shot anyways especially if you know someone who has a red dot on their firearm that you can try.

First off I'd definitely check into the barrel nut and have your weapon looked at by a gunsmith though. I'm relatively new to the forums myself but a LOT of these guys just love their 15-22's and have never mentioned problems with steel plates and such.

Most importantly, keep having fun with your son! :-)

__________________
Live For Today Not Tomorrow

I took my son to the range today. It was his first time shooting with the optics and grip pod.

The right lower group was his first group. He had parallax issues as he had never tried the scope before. The left lower group was after a little coaching. He got better as he figured it out some.

The middle four groups were mine. The top two and the water mark on the upper right corner were his. The small target groups were shot at 25 yards. The bigger group was shot at 50 yards.

Groups were all 25 shots. Seated, bench rest off the bi-pod.
Due to a lack of time all groups were shot in a 30 minute time frame. The gun did not seam to loosen up as it got hot.

We have just over 1000 rounds through the gun. It has been broken down and completely cleaned every 250 rounds or so.

I have tried CCI Stingers/Winchester Super X-HP/Winchester Super X bulk and the M-22. So far the best groups have been with the M-22.

I feel the groups could be tighter with a lighter trigger set. I'm doing research to figure out what one I will go with.

The equipment used is as follows.
MOE 1522(non perform)
Nikon P-22 scope
Burris PEPR mount
GRG MFG Grip pod
Winchester M-22 ammo

Jay

Attached Images

	group1.jpg (46.5 KB, 64 views)
	group 50 yard.jpg (31.1 KB, 55 views)

M-22 is decent ammo but I find my Performance Center AR15-22 likes CCI-Tactical even better. And so does my CMMG .22 conversion in either of my ARs.
A good lighter trigger will do wonders for your long range accuracy. If you want a precision trigger get the Jard model that you can adjust down to 1.5#. If you want a speed trigger then spring for a Geiselle Dynamic Super 3-Gun. If you put a set of the JP low power yellow springs in the Geiselle you will have a trigger around 1.25#. I tried it and it worked 100% of the time but I went back to the stock Geiselle springs (2.5#) so that it felt the same as my Stag 3G.
Getting the tool and switching the polymer handguard for some kind of modular alloy one will also tighten up the groups because the barrel nut is then anchored to a long metal piece instead of a plastic one. it changes the barrel resonances in a positive direction. A cheap accuracy improving step is to bolt the plastic receiver and the plastic handguard together using a 6" long 1/2" riser or make your own bracket.

Best thing to get is a set of the KNS non-rotating trigger pins. They now make a set for the AR15-22 that takes into account the thicker polymer lower receiver (I thick they work on the FA polymer lowers also).

Accurate out of the box autoloader.. marlin model 60s and marlon 795s... the micro groove barrel is the cats meow!!.. i had a 1981 glendfield model 60 ( marlin with different name) and i never missed a squirrel out to 100 yards..
My 1522 shoots great and plenty accurate if i do my part in fact i just shot a 27 shot 1" group at 50 yards last night with one flyer

Dueling tree is actually designed to be used for pistols at shorter ranges. My club actually has a match for both centerfire and rimfire handguns every now and then. If you don't have a time limit it just becomes like playing Tic-Tac-Toe where most games are a draw.
The way it is supposed to work is the first one who gets all the targets on the other shooters side wins, not shooting so many rounds with no limit.
If you want to win you have to shoot the match correctly. Both start out with 10 rounds in the mag (or whatever). When the timer goes off you try to shoot and move all the plates to the other side momentarily. If you do you win if the other shooter can't shoot fast enough to keep at least one on your side. In that case your kid is going to want an AR15-22 also so he can shoot faster because he won't win any of them with a bolt gun.