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Old 06-30-2011, 08:57 AM
paulj2 paulj2 is offline
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Default Effects of Removing Forend Cap

I am curious of the long term effect of removing the forend cap from the handguard. In another thread, concerns were mentioned about the possible stresses on the poly receiver.

I can understand the concern, but also think of the after market barrel nut that allows an AR-15 handguard with no barrel support.

I am asking for comments from those that have removed the end cap alone or installed the after market barrel nut and AR handguard. Have you experienced any problems, particularly concerning flex or damage to the receiver?

Thanks for the input.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:15 AM
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I took mines off and had no problem. All shots were still placed in a good group.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:09 AM
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Mine was removed many thousands of rounds ago. I haven't noticed any changes in my POA/POI with my 4x scope ever since removing, along with no observable issues regarding barrel/receiver. I even have a barrel shroud on mine, which there is no contact with the rail/handguard and adds just a little more weight on the forend. I also use a GripPod, mainly as a handy bipod at my local range, so have been adding pressure to that area of the rail with no adverse effects.

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Old 06-30-2011, 06:20 PM
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Thanks for the replies. Anyone else that has done this and would share your experience?
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:31 PM
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There is a stainless steel bushing molded into the upper that is pinched between the breech block and the barrel nut.
There is no mechanical difference to the 15-22 between the factory barrel nut and the aftermarket adapter for the AR/M4 free floating hand guards.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:27 PM
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Because there was some talk that not letting the forend cap contact the barrel was good; I took the cap off and opened up the opening for the barrel with my Dremel until iti no longer contacts the barrel no matter which way I push on the forend. The thought was that that procedure was the equivalent of "free floating" the barrel, so the pressure on the barrel (in this case none) was the same whether you used a bipod, sandbag, whatever. Short answer: Gun shoots great without forend cap touching barrel.
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:34 AM
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My forend cap has been off the 15-22 after about the second range run.
I saw no difference at all with it on or with it off. I have the RRages Navy Seals fake suppressor on the rifle at present again, without the forend cap.

Have found that the ammo you use will indeed have an accuracy effect. To date for me the most accurate is the Aguilla Match Target 40g lead. At 50 yards with a 19X scope, I can put 10 rounds into a consistent nickle sized hole. Second best ammo was the Fiocci Match 340 also a lead 40g bullet with similar results. The copper plated bullets are perhaps the least accurate at 50Y in my particular 15-22.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticool22 View Post
There is a stainless steel bushing molded into the upper that is pinched between the breech block and the barrel nut.
There is no mechanical difference to the 15-22 between the factory barrel nut and the aftermarket adapter for the AR/M4 free floating hand guards.
I was hoping you would answer this question. Not trying to belabor the point, just trying to be clear, I take from your response, you have seen no problems with the receiver or the rifle in general by either removing the end cap or using your barrel nut adapter and free float AR handguards?

I appreciate all the responses, just want to be sure removing the end cap won't somehow "injure" the polymer receiver or barrel connection.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:51 AM
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I have not seen or heard of any problems.
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:06 PM
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I removed the fore end cap and just returned from a short test session. For my shooting position, I was prone in the cheat grass, my back pack for the front rest and my off hand fist for the rear stock rest, using Armscor 36 gr hp.

I fired several groups to center the scope at 50 yards. Shots 41-50 made a ragged 3/4" hole, only because 1 round expanded the group from 1/2". This is better by far than I shot with the end cap in place using the same ammo off a bench with bags.

My conclusion, for my rifle, it shoots best with end cap removed. This may not be the case for others, but for me, the end cap has been officially retired.
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Old 07-02-2011, 03:11 PM
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I made some clearance between barrel and cap.....about 1mm. So barrel is free, but cap will support barrel, if some accident happens....drop or something.
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:33 PM
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I took my 15-22 out this morning to re-zero a different optic on it. After I got it zeroed, I took the cap out of the forend to see if it made any difference. I was shooting at 50 yards and the Federal 36 gr bulk pak 22 shot their usual mediocre group with the cap in the forend. Shooting with the cap out , the Federals were definitely shooting tighter groups. So I grabbed some other flavors of ammo and shot. all seemed to shoot better than I remember. The gun is just a tin can killer and general plinker, but I still like to have a gun shoot as accurately as it can; I'll be shooting the 15-22 without the cap.
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:42 PM
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I didn't believe it, but removing the end cap actually seems to improve accuracy! At the range the past weekend, I had a weird shifting point of impact while shooting off a bag (impact up to a couple of inches higher than point of aim depending where the rifle was resting on bag). I ditched the end cap, and got much, much better groups. Thanks for the advice!

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Old 07-13-2011, 05:13 PM
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i have had my 15-22 for about a week now and so far I am curious about this end-cap debate--the dealer who sold me the rifle mentioned a few of his customers reporting the same things i am reading here--no doubt that there is something to it--

barrel whip? i know from varmint slaying in Western Nebraska with distance modified AR-15s and .308 bolts that this is the primary reason for muzzle-brakes and free floating barrels--

or is it a design flaw causing too much pressure at a specific point on the barrel length itself? Any ideas or theories?>
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:31 PM
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How about the people that bought one of belt feds shrouds? I know the cap has to be removed to install the shroud, is the accuracy affected by the weight of the shroud? I would think that the extra weight would effect the barrel somehow. I want to order one but not if its gonna effect the accuracy of the rifle.
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:41 AM
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I have seen no difference with my original heavy shrouds or the new lightweight ones.
Point of impact changed on some rifles, but accuracy generally increased.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:36 AM
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Thats good to hear.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:18 AM
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it's just like any other rifle. adding weight to the front of the weapon is going to change the POI, though on a .22lr it should be a much smaller adjustment. went though this a few years ago with some friends that had gotten into shooting mosin nagants. they were all jacked up talking about barrel harmonics and some other nonsense when shooting with bayonets on and bayonets off. they were utterly convinced it was something way more scientific that is actually was. weight on the rifle will change POI plan and simple...that being said the shrouds i got from tacticool22 are extremely lightweight and recoil on a .22lr is next to non-existent so i don't imagine too much adjustment to the sights will be necessary.
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BXRandall View Post
it's just like any other rifle. adding weight to the front of the weapon is going to change the POI, though on a .22lr it should be a much smaller adjustment. went though this a few years ago with some friends that had gotten into shooting mosin nagants. they were all jacked up talking about barrel harmonics and some other nonsense when shooting with bayonets on and bayonets off. they were utterly convinced it was something way more scientific that is actually was. weight on the rifle will change POI plan and simple...that being said the shrouds i got from tacticool22 are extremely lightweight and recoil on a .22lr is next to non-existent so i don't imagine too much adjustment to the sights will be necessary.


Very good point...the barrel shroud seems like the end-all of what to do about the 'end cap issue' and this is probably why...
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:11 PM
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the end cap is a problem because it causes the barrel on the 15-22 to not float. fixing this is just like what you do with a regular stocked rifle when you want to increase accuracy by floating the barrel. in a regular rifle you bed the action and float the barrel in the barrel channel in the stock so that it's not touching. on the 15-22 the barrel is essentially floated to start with, except that pesky end cap is clearly contacting the barrel. so you have 2 options, remove enough material on the inside diameter of the end cap to create a gap between the end cap and the barrel --OR-- remove the durn thing completely, which is the easiest option. now as long as the barrel is firmly and properly attached to the upper assembly then you have a nice little "float" on the 15-22 and your groups should tighten up accordingly
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:48 PM
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Sounds like an opportunity for making better aftermarket endcaps that don't touch the barrel, but still provides structural rigidity for the forearm. Otherwise, if you shoot off a bag, you POI may be too high and if you shoot with a tight sling (ala Appleseed) your POI may be too low.

Any volunteers?
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:58 PM
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unless you are jumping up and down on the rifle or using it as a club or running over it with a big heavy vehicle you shouldn't have to worry about rigidity in the handguard. ditch the end cap, it shouldn't matter if you are shooting from a bag or a sling supported position.(1) if your POI is changing based on whether the rifle is on a bag or being shot from a sling supported position then you might want to check the tightness of your barrel in the upper. (2) if it is still changing with the barrel secured and tightened properly you are more than likely applying too much tension somewhere in your shooting setup, not likely when shooting off a bag/bench but definitely could be a problem if you are putting a lot of tension on the sling when shooting that way.
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:00 PM
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I don't want to step on any toes here. I am sure I am in the minority here and this only my experience with my MP 15-22. I can see no real accuracy improvement with or without the forend cap using the same ammo for both tests. In my opinion a 16inch .22LR barrel doesn't create enough barrel vibration or heat ( the way I shoot anyway ) to make freefloating the barrel a accuracy improvement. I do know on a 24inch ( or longer ) high powered hunting rifle sometimes freefloating or a damper on the barrel can tighten shot groups. And I have had rifles where freefloating the barrel made accuracy worse and I needed just some small amount of even pressure between the barrel and the stock. Of course this is all just my 2cents worth and don't want to create a firestorm of controversy here.

My MP 15-22 is no tack driver by any means no matter what I do including different ammo, forend cap on or off. All in all it is the most fun to shoot of my .22LRs and the meanest looking also.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:54 AM
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[QUOTE=team sidewinder;136034484]I don't want to step on any toes here. QUOTE]

I see no reason to take offense at someone else's observation. Being able to share the experiences with this rifle is why I keep checking this forum. When I tested my rifle, it performed better with the end cap removed. My advice to anyone considering this, is to test with and without and make the decision to leave or remove it.

I agree with you, this rifle is no tack driver, but for me, it is the most fun of any 22LR I have owned.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:17 AM
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I think I saw somewhere else mentioned on this forum talk about a different material for the forend cap. I think maybe something like a hard rubber with just a little more give might work better than the hard rigid polymer end cap now on the 15-22. I think such a material would have less affect from heat or pressure than the polymer cap. I would like to see a aftermarket product like that and would have one on my rifle in a heartbeat.

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Old 07-15-2011, 10:59 AM
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I wanted to get S&W input on this. Basically what is the end-cap for. Is it cosmetic or functional. Here is the reply:

"The cap is for appearance. It is used to plug up the hole in front. You can shoot the gun without it and not cause any damage."

Regards, Steve

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Old 07-15-2011, 02:44 PM
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Thanks MZ, that is good news. My end cap will officially remain on the shelf.
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:48 AM
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mine will be going byebye tommorrow before the trip to the range...Thanks for the 10-4 on that!
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:24 PM
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added a Tacticool shroud--now its definately gone for good lol
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:37 AM
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Heading to the range today, will see if removing end cap has any effect. Have been reading all the posts here concerning this subject and figured I didn't have anything to loose, so off came the end cap (very easy removal).
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:08 AM
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Heading to the range today, will see if removing end cap has any effect. Have been reading all the posts here concerning this subject and figured I didn't have anything to loose, so off came the end cap (very easy removal).
Went to the range (8-2-11) put about 100 rds. down range but did not see any noticeable change in POI by removing end cap, probably because I was having trouble getting my scope to sight the same between the 4 reticles. Groups were good with the 3 & 10 MOA dots @ 25 yds., but when I changed to the Cross hairs or the 65 MOA circle W/3 MOA dot, I was either high & left or low & right. I am not very pleased with this Bushnell Trophy scope so until I can get things straitened out I will leave the End Cap off and try again at a later date.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:44 AM
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I just received my tacticool shroud in mail! Soo lightweight and great quality, very impressed!! I want to say it is lighter than my flash hider and also takes an inch or so off overall length. Love it. Endcap comes off with ease after pressing the tabs in.

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Old 05-12-2015, 12:41 PM
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I removed the front cap and cut two inches off the fore grip, no problems whatsoever. I use a TrueShotTechnologies A2 sight instead of a rail mounted front sight. I like the looks and performance. Go for it.
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Old 05-12-2015, 12:52 PM
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Here I have removed two inches from the fore grip. The cap is still present here but was removed shortly after. I have had no problems whatsoever without it.
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Old 05-12-2015, 06:18 PM
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how do you remove the end cap.
thanks
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
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how do you remove the end cap.
thanks
First, remove the flash hider if there is one. Then look around the perimeter of the fore grip and you will see four tabs in opposing pairs through the holes in the grip. press each of these until they pop loose and pry the end cap out, very easy to do. Then slide the cap off the barrel and replace the flash hider. There ya go, free floating fore grip. good luck. FYI. I got my A2 sight from TrueShotTechnologies.com.
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Old 05-13-2015, 02:53 PM
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The only time you will notice anything is if you are shooting iron sights. Any stress on the handguard will cause it to flex and throw the alignment of the front sight off. It requires a lot of stress to deflect the barrel in the receiver enough to throw off a receiver mounted red dot or scope.
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Old 05-13-2015, 03:03 PM
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Speaking of barrel whip, has anyone tried one of these ?
Sharpshooter X-Ring | LimbSaver
Yes they work, especially for getting bulk ammo to shoot tighter groups. Someone several years ago did a test on RFC and posted photos of the targets using Fed. 550 bulk from WM and the groups shrunk by at least 30%. Some rimfire benchrest shooters use them also. The position has to be tuned for your particular ammo to get the smallest groups but just putting them near the end of the stock or handguard can get improvement. The one time I tuned one on a Rem 597 the best spot was about 6 inches from the end of the barrel using CCI MiniMags. When I rebarreled the 597 with a Volquartsen carbon fiber tensioned barrel and a Jard match trigger its accuracy got down to .5 MOA without the barrel de-resonator using CCI-SV so I did not bother to put it back on. They also work on centerfire rifles. Sometime next year I plan on putting them on a couple of my other rifles and tuning them to see what they do on centerfire (I have one each of the sporter and bull barrel versions).Thinking about putting the bull version on my .308 LR match rifle to see what it can do at 1000 yards.
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Old 05-13-2015, 03:43 PM
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My H/G cap has been off my PC model since the day I opened the box. Speaking of barrel whip, has anyone tried one of these ?Sharpshooter X-Ring | LimbSaver
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:23 AM
stonecutter stonecutter is offline
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Hi Guys, a very interesting and timely thread for me.

I propped my Smith 15-22 up against the desk while I was getting my stuff ready to go to the range.
And yes of course it fell over, so I thought when I get to the range I would bench it just to make sure it was still holding zero.

I have an Aimpoint Comp C3 on it as I use the Smith just for running and gunning in Mini Rifle Comps.
When I got to the range I realised I had left my Caldwell bag behind so decided to rest the gun on the edge of my range bag.

To make matters worse I have an injury to my left shoulder which made it very difficult to get into a stable comfortable position.

I thought I had zeroed the gun in no problem, just to make sure I decided to recheck it but because of my shoulder injury I couldn’t get in a good position.

What I found out was that I must have been putting quite a lot of pressure on the gun when I was shooting it because the group had moved up by about 4 inches.

At first I didn't believe I thought it must have been me, so I tried it again I shot another group without putting any pressure on the gun and then a group while bearing down on the gun and the group had moved up again.

What I need now is a barrel wrench to check the barrel nut is good and tight and when I do that I may just leave the forend cap off all together.

Any thoughts?
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Old 05-14-2015, 08:51 AM
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What I need now is a barrel wrench to check the barrel nut is good and tight and when I do that I may just leave the forend cap off all together.

Any thoughts?
I think all owners need a good barrel wrench & barrel vise. It is a good idea to verify your barrel is tightened properly plus I take my barrel off for cleaning. I got my tools from Tacticool22.

The end cap is purely cosmetic and can possible touch the barrel depending on how you grip, so I'd remove it.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:35 AM
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I think all owners need a good barrel wrench & barrel vise. It is a good idea to verify your barrel is tightened properly plus I take my barrel off for cleaning. I got my tools from Tacticool22.

The end cap is purely cosmetic and can possible touch the barrel depending on how you grip, so I'd remove it.
Thanks for the input Jim, The problem is i am in the UK and getting the wrench & vise at a reasonable price is a problem, in fact getting anything firearm related at a reasonble price in the UK is always a problem Jim.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:56 AM
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After reading through all this I'm thinking opening up the hole in the cap with a dremel or drill bit is probably the best idea, as SW Gun Guy stated. This way if there is a drop or fall the HG can't be flexed too far.
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Old 05-14-2015, 01:27 PM
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Thanks for the input Jim, The problem is i am in the UK and getting the wrench & vise at a reasonable price is a problem, in fact getting anything firearm related at a reasonable price in the UK is always a problem Jim.
Nope, no problem.
Everything in our store can be sent to you and at reasonable rates. You should have a few international shipping options.
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:12 PM
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Nope, no problem.
Everything in our store can be sent to you and at reasonable rates. You should have a few international shipping options.
Wow great news thanks!

Most companies in the USA no longer ship to the UK
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:45 PM
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Wow great news thanks!

Most companies in the USA no longer ship to the UK
I did not start a company to be like most others.
Anybody can do average.
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Old 05-14-2015, 03:23 PM
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I did not start a company to be like most others.
Anybody can do average.
Lol......Nice one
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