Well, I am sending my 15-22 back a second time to get the extractor replace. This is after less than 300 rounds since they replaced the original. Was using Federal and Winchester Bulk ammunition. Again, it would sure be nice if they sold the individual parts and had a diagram for this firearm. I am sure that I could replace the extractor myself!

How often have you cleaned the gun? When you clean it, do you accidentally bump or snag the extractor? If you do, and bend it, you'll throw it off and will all kinds of fte's

CDRJED, Mud King is correct, the extractor is mounted to the barrel end in the breach, if you bend it during cleaning, you will be sending it in after every cleaning. I use a bore snake, but I pull it out of the breach in line with the extractor, some pull it out of the breach towards the barrel end, and the snake can hook the extractor and bend it. Even cleaning that area with a tooth brush, can bend it.. I use Q-Tips and lightly clean that area out after spraying it with a cleaner. I think that is a little bit of a weak area of a design by the engineers, but once I understand it, I'm aware of the design, I have had no further issues.

Thanks all. I am well aware of the geometry required to clean my M&P 15-22 and find that using the OTIS system makes it much easier to avoid stress on the ejector. Early on I did the "bend the ejector" trick and have been very careful when cleaning. Since the rifle has been returned I have not had any more trouble (fingers crossed). I have put about 600 rounds through it since it was returned. They did replace the springs in the FCG this time around.

CDRJED, great I hope you are on your way to killing more paper Zombies then.. What I like about the 22 rim fire, being so fickle and such, when it has a FTF or FTE, it's also training you to clear and get your weapon back in fire mode, something I use to do as a trainer on the AR15 platform. I had to create a jam, and teach the Officers to learn how to clear them. The 22lr does it on it's own, anytime it wants to.. Happy shooting and keepem in the X.... Happy Holidays..

Mudking, I think CDRJED is referring to the extractor in the bolt, not the ejector which is below the bolt, attached to the receiver near the bottom of the barrel. Just got my 1522 back for the second time, also

Not to be a ****, but why so many issues with these designs?? The Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin 60 have been around since Moses carved rules on rocks...... and they just tend to work right forever. How is it that a rifle based loosely on a military platform which SHOULD lend itself to the first and foremost design ethic of a weapon RULE#1. It's gotta WORK, and be dependable.)

Is this a design oversight? A cost cutting measure that is coming home to roost?
And, last question; does someone make a better one that can be added via aftermarket? It would seem that with a price point 2-3 times as much as a Marlin 60, it should at least work as well, if not better.
Please give me some details if you have any, or links to the issues and fixes if you know of any. Thanks!! Paul.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Sorry to hear about your ongoing problems. They should replace the whole bolt IMHO. They very well might.
My only experience with them involved my PC model not being accurate no matter what I ran through it. They replaced the whole upper. My point is to write them a detailed explanation and express your displeasure in the gun's performance. Bad PR doesn't sell guns.

Hope you get it sorted out soon.

Hobie

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You are kidding, right?

It appears that you have a "real" AR15 but do you have the 15-22? Have you closely looked at the design differences that are the result of a round that has about one tenth the energy of the bigger version? Yup, the AR15 buffer tube/spring, bolt carrier and gas tube system would work real well in a .22 system.

S&W did a great job making the 15-22 as close to the full AR15 as possible. Some trade off were necessary. No other company has come as close.

The two rifles you mentioned were able to be designed using a clean slate and had parts optimized for a .22 without having to fit into the form factor dictated by the AR15 design.

Many of us have run thousands of rounds thru our 15-22 with no problem issues that can attributed to S&W's design or workmanship.

The Ruger 10/22 (and I love Ruger stuff...have several) doesn't even come close to being an AR15 type design...

No, I am not kidding. I have read of countless AR lookalike .22 that malfunction, or are killed by using the 'wrong' .22lr ammo. That's pretty disturbing that a round so small will render the machine a paperweight. You'd think that as in any other firearms test it would be PT to 1.5 times max pressure from the cases it was expected to fire.
I know the companies are working to make good on the product. But my neighbor has the M&P 15-22, and had the first one die from the wrong .22 ammo. Then, the replacement had some other kind of issues. S&W gave him a credit for the value of the rifle. That part is good.
My issue- pretty simple: The bolt and chamber can be made to cycle cleanly. These are a 100% different upper than a regular AR 15. All these rifles were started with a clean sheet of paper (Well, a clean computer screen....) and it's not like there was no prior .22 semi's out there to look at from a design POV and understand what works and why. To insinuate it was going to be so much more complicated is silly. The .22lr mechanism is far less complicated, unless they are literally trying to copy a DI gas system rather than stick to a dependable, robust blowback system. You cap off the buffer tube or install a tube made to carry the different style spring that properly cycles a .22 bolt, and go from there. All the housing around it is fluff; the chamber and bolt are where the pressure lies.
I am asking because I see a fair dose of issues with these, and it seems like some hard testing should have shown the shortcomings and then give an engineer time to clear up the issues. Being partial to S&W over the years, I have seen them blow a LOT of money on warranty stuff that there was no rhyme or reason to have to deal with.

Anyway, Thank you for the response.

The extractors in these guns are paper thin. One little bend and your gun will give you endless headaches. It's something I think could use a little more improvement.

Paper thin and long.

"The bolt and chamber can be made to cycle cleanly"??? Even on the AR15 that doesn't always happen... Zip to any AR15 forum for confirmation of that.

You really must not have paid much attention to the internals of your neighbor's 15-22. The S&W is not 100% different than a standard AR.

(Yes, virtually 100% of the parts aren't interchangeable per se, but the functionality of the majority of the parts on the 15-22 are an almost 100% match, unlike the other AR15 .22 models)

Again, S&W wasn't able to use as "clean a sheet of paper" as you assume. By matching the form/function of the full AR15 as closely as they did, they were severly constrained.

The 15-22 uses the exact same trigger mechanism as on the AR15 (look at the number of people who use RR triggers as upgrades). That means whatever bolt system that is used in the upper has to match a true AR in the trigger interface area. The 100% difference number you talked about just dropped.

The fire/safe mechanism functions the same, some of those others you talk about simply have molded bumps on the stock where the mechanisms would be. Further from 100% difference.

The Mag release is in the exact same area and the functions the same. Very few of the other units have a LRHO like the AR15 and the 15-22.

The bolt release lever is in the same area and functions the same. That's a big plus for the 15-22 when you are using it as an AR trainer.

The charging handle is the same area and functions the same. Don't know how that would be implemented on the Ruger or Marlin.

The unit breaks open and separates by pushing the same two captive pins. Again that means the 100% difference isn't really the case.

The hand grip is standard. Many replace those on their 15-22s. The design of the hand grip affects the pins that hold the upper and lower receiver.

Stocks can easily be replaced cuz Smith's design follows the AR15 design the closest.

Virtually any BUIS sights can be used cuz the rail is standard and the heights are correct. You can mix and match, I use a Magpul rear sight and the standard S&W in the front.

Dozens of threaded flash hiders, muzzle breaks, suppressors and/or compensators all fit on the threaded barrel.

Name one other AR "copy" .22 that can do all that. They can't because they didn't try as hard as Smith did to stay true to the AR design.

None of the internal mechanisms of the 10-22 or Marlin can be easily adapted to do the same. They would have to totally redesign their system and if they did there would not be any guarrantee that they would work any better.

CMMG makes fairly popular .22 upper units and drop in adapter kits that turn a AR15 in to a .22 version. Look at how they did that and note the similarity between their mechanism and Smith's.

Maybe there are a few areas that Smith needs to work on. But, they come light years closer to a AR15 style .22 than any other off the shelf model available today.

Rimfire ammo is one of the most unreliable rounds built (ever see a video on how the primer is put in place?) There is a reason it costs only a few cents per round. Expecting any firearm to be reliable 100% with 3 cent ammo is unrealistic, IMHO.

^sounds like the end of the conversation, well said.

Nah; they will keep having issues with them. Wait a week......

The point is, and was..... with a company the size of S&W, and with as much experience as they have, it's bizarre and almost unbelievable that they would have not vetted the rifle more before rushing them to the market. It's not like there have been only 3 issues out of a million sold; if it were, we'd be telling people to just accept that they got a rare problem child of a rifle.
It goes much deeper than that. If a person wants to defend their purchase, and justify it?? That's fine. But to a great many folks, the $400-500 they drop on these rifles represents a lot of money, and to see their money sidelined by malfunctioning parts is disheartening.

Especially when there are solid performers that cost 40% less. That- that part is the REAL rub.

I hate to break it to you but the other AR15 .22LR models that are "40% less priced" they don't represent a true AR15 at all. The Mossberg's charging handle is just molded in the receiver and serves no purpose. I believe the chamber release is just a loose piece that also serves no purpose. The Colt UMarex, the lower assembly is a completely sealed off compartment of no comparison to a true AR.

I guess the old saying, "You get what you pay for," really pays off on a 15-22 then...

I was not referring to other AR based 22's. I was talking about the ones that have a long proven history; ie Ruger 10/22.

It's hard to argue with a $160-260 semi that just plain works. (Though you are gamely defending the 15-22, which is fine.)

I Looked at Bud's Gun Shop this morning at some of the more popular AR .22 style brands.

Rem 597VTRCS - $489
Umarex Colt M4 - $487
Ruger SR-22 - $462
M&P 15-22 - $418
Mosberg Tactical - $233
---------

Other stuff... My Sig522 SWAT was around $550. Lowest price I could find on Google Product Search for the HK16 was $527. Most of the ATI models are around $350 for various firearm copies.

Looks like to me that the 15-22 is reasonably priced compared to the competition.



Why compare apples to oranges?

If you want to compare the 10-22 to the 15-22 then that would be the Ruger SR-22. The SR-22 is priced higher than the 15-22, and it doesn't even come with sights or a quad rail.

If someone does not want an AR styled rifle in .22LR then I would agree there are many fine alternatives at much lower prices. However, for those who do want an AR style, the 15-22 is hard to beat in both price and operation.

The OP said "2'nd time extractor has failed". What is happening? Not extracting the cartridge from the chamber? Or not ejecting the cartridge from the bolt, stove-piping perhaps?

The extractor is contained in the bolt assembly and after just looking at mine, you'd have to get aggressive with the cleaning brush to bend it as it sits flush in the bolt with just the little hook sticking out.

The ejector is the long skinny piece of metal that can be bent easily if not careful. I put a piece of R/C engine fuel line over it to keep from being hooked in the cleaning process.

I wonder if the OP's gun's chamber might be a bit tight, causing unduly hard extractions.

Hobie

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My 15-22 rifle was perfect right out of the box, but my 15-22 pistol had all sorts of extraction/ejection problems until I figured out what needed to be done. Using the rifle as a reference, I cycled several mags through the rifle using the charging handle, and I noticed that the cartridges barely spilled out of the ejection port. When I did the same with the pistol, I noticed that while some of the rounds would spill out, others would flip out pretty hard. I should note that in live firing the casings ejected solidly up to the right and back. After much experimentation cycling by hand and live firing, I figured out that the lip of the casing can not run along the side of the ejector at all. The only thing the casing should hit is the tang at the end of the ejector. I know there are videos on the internet that show a guy bending his ejector inward , but if you bend it in too far you will have issues, The lips on .22 cartridges vary quite a bit in size, and I confirmed that the casings with the larger diameters were the ones that were snapping out hard when ejecting with the charging handle. When I actually fired the gun, I believe that they were getting pushed out of the recess in the bolt, out from under the extractor, and then stovepiping. I made some simple adjustments and I now have 2 guns that I take out and shoot 300-600 rounds through without any problems save for the occasional ammo issue if I use the cheap stuff.

That's pretty interesting. It sounds like a little offset or flex on the extractor can give you headaches, especially when tied to the rim being different on the ammo types.
Is there a way you can see into your chamber and get a look at the finish? If there is even a small burr or chafed spot it can give issues with extraction. Couple this with any of the other issues, and it can be a real headache. Maybe a camera on the macro setting zoomed in can get a better look in there for you.

Look guys, I am not bashing on the 15-22. I am wondering what is the reason for the different issues the rifles are having. If I look to buy one for my son, the last thing I want is to give him a headache as a Christmas present. (He's asking, and he's eating me out of house and .223 ammo....) Please don't take it the wrong way. I am trying to learn what the problems are, and the fixes if there have been any.
Paul.

Springs seemed to be the cure for most all returned rifles. This Forum was rife with complaints a year ago. Since then there have been fewer and fewer gripes, and mostly happy campers. The most common issue is loading the mag. The rounds don't stack properly if pulling down too far on the load assist button. If you just push the rounds in you wont have any problems.

I wouldn't fret... Put a 1522 under the tree and have a great Chistmas shooting with your son.

Good grief, I offered a scenario and posed a question about function and it's like I never posted.

Hobie....being grumpy.

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OP posted in messages 1 & 4 and hasn't responded since.

Your questions appear to be directed at him in post 19.

Unless you want us to answer for him, we should be invisible.

Good analogy:

The 10/22 and the 15-22 both use .22 LR ammo.

Apples and oranges both grow on trees.

Hey-hey.... these are plastic guns, not wood guns. Don't bring trees into this equation!!!

The only extractor issues I have read about was after an out of battery discharge.

Who said ARs don't grow on trees?



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I wouldn't presume that anyone should answer for him. I posed a couple of rhetorical questions and was expecting to read someone's response to them, not just the OPs. Considering how the thread swerved off course into who's .22 manufacturer is better, the OP probably just said to heck with it. Also, the usage of extractor/ejector bounced around a bit.

It all really doesn't matter to me. My guns have worked flawlessly since I bought them. I don't like reading about people that are having on-going problems. I tried to help, to no avail.

Hobie

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