Proof of Ownership

[johncal]

In case it's ever required, I want to be able to prove my lawful ownership of gun on the spot.

What I did to make sure I'm always prepared for this was to make a copy of my receipt (with serial #)along with My photo drivers license.
I then folded and rolled the copy up and stuck it in the fake buffer tube. Especially with the Butt Stock Pad I added, unless you removed The stock, you'd never know it was there.

But it would be pretty irrefutable proof it's yours, especially when you pull off the Butt Stock, open the compartment, and pull out your legal proof of ownership.

Just a thought.

[g8rb8]

What state do you live in where you have to show ownership? In Kansas you'd have to be acting real squirrely with your rifle to have an officer ask for proof of ownership.

John
Scoundrel and Ne'er-Do-Well in Training

[tomcatt51]

Originally Posted by johncal

In case it's ever required, I want to be able to prove my lawful ownership of gun on the spot.

Are you serious? Do you carry proof of "lawful ownership" of the undies you're wearing too?

[johncal]

Originally Posted by tomcatt51

Are you serious? Do you carry proof of "lawful ownership" of the undies you're wearing too?

No need for that..... your comment that is.

[gabe221]

They can look the proof of ownership up if ever needed, it's not your problem, the serial number is on the rifle. If you bought it from an individual, a bill of sale is all that's needed.

[Fishinfool]

"Possession is 9/10th's of the law".

That said, for the other 10%, I have always hidden my name and DOB somewhere on most of my guns, usually on paper, under the but pad, or under a grip. Figure it may help top identify one if stolen. Smart thing these days is to keep a computer data base / print out of all your valuables, including serial numbers, along with pics, incase of theft or fire. Not everyone keeps receipts over the years, or even has one sometimes.

Larry

[Comrad]

It this day and age, proof of ownership of anything can by fabricated on a laptop and printed out, with ruffles and flourishes. I'm with the possession is 9/10ths camp here.

[GhostMutt]

In the UK I take my license with photo ID and serial number, with me to the range whenever I travel with it, with no concealed carry permits or liberal gun ownership laws here in England, I can just imagine the fuss that would be ensue should some policeman/woman, ask to see what's in the bag and I pull out a M&P 15-22. haha. I even transport mine in a guitar bag, so as to not arouse any suspicions from anyone.

[vipermd]

I have never had anyone ask to see proof of ownership for firearm/suppressor but it is in my 15-22 butt stock also. I still have the receipt of my first deer rifle purchased in 1975 from my brother's brother in law. Who would ask?? Probably no one , ever, having photo ID and receipt in butt stock would make it a short conversation and all one sided!! As for my undies- the wife puts a picture of her 45 with humanoid target that has been emasculated. Never Lost Them. Be Safe,

[colt_saa]

Originally Posted by gabe221

If you bought it from an individual, a bill of sale is all that's needed.

Actually, Federal Law does not require a bill of sale in a personal transaction between two individuals.

Some State laws might

[colt_saa]

Originally Posted by johncal

In case it's ever required, I want to be able to prove my lawful ownership of gun on the spot.

What I did to make sure I'm always prepared for this was to make a copy of my receipt (with serial #)along with My photo drivers license.
I then folded and rolled the copy up and stuck it in the fake buffer tube. Especially with the Butt Stock Pad I added, unless you removed The stock, you'd never know it was there.

But it would be pretty irrefutable proof it's yours, especially when you pull off the Butt Stock, open the compartment, and pull out your legal proof of ownership.

Just a thought.

Not sure where you live, of even if you are in America.

But there is no requirement under American Laws to carry "Papers" to show the Government.

If you are doing something bad enough for Law Enforcement to get to the point they want proof of ownership, odds are you are being arrested anyway.

[gdnagle]

Originally Posted by colt_saa

Actually, Federal Law does not require a bill of sale in a personal transaction between two individuals.

Some State laws might

Yea but nice to have if the seller decides to call it in lost or stolen or latter it's found to have been stolen. I don't want to be accused of the dastardly deed. I don't trust anyone anymore.

Years ago you use to put your SSN on everything now with ID theft you don't want you SSN on anything. DL numbers now.

Most places if the firearm isn't recorded as stolen, if or when they check the number you really don't need proof.

Maybe you might want to seal the info in a water proof enclosure so if it get wet it's still readable.

[Road Man]

For proof of ownership I scan a copy of the receipt and keep a copy of it on my hard drive. The paper receipt gets placed in the safe. I do keep a database with serial numbers and lots of other information, this file is encrypted and password protected, but can be accessed using my cell phone if needed.

In the fake buffer tube I keep a printed copy of the BATFE letter that states that my Slide Fire stock is perfectly legal. No one has ever wanted to see the letter, but shooting it sometimes means lots of questions.

I placed a discreet p-touch label on all of my firearms with my name and cell phone number, but the database with the serial number is the option that I would use to prove ownership if a dispute ever occurred. The paper original will hold up in court if it ever got to that point, but the real reason I keep the original information is if I ever need to file an insurance claim. I have pictures of each of my firearms to back up the condition of the guns.

One reason to carry some sort of way to prove ownership of your gun is if there are two otherwise identical guns at the range and someone gets confused about which one is theirs. Of course it is always possible that there is no confusion, rather the "other guy" is trying to switch his worn out gun for my gun that is in better shape.

[MichiganScott]

Originally Posted by johncal

In case it's ever required, I want to be able to prove my lawful ownership of gun on the spot.

What I did to make sure I'm always prepared for this was to make a copy of my receipt (with serial #)along with My photo drivers license.
I then folded and rolled the copy up and stuck it in the fake buffer tube. Especially with the Butt Stock Pad I added, unless you removed The stock, you'd never know it was there.

But it would be pretty irrefutable proof it's yours, especially when you pull off the Butt Stock, open the compartment, and pull out your legal proof of ownership.

Just a thought.

That is just plain goofy. Anyone asking me to prove ownership, including a LEO, would be told three simple words.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by johncal

In case it's ever required, I want to be able to prove my lawful ownership of gun on the spot.

What I did to make sure I'm always prepared for this was to make a copy of my receipt (with serial #)along with My photo drivers license.
I then folded and rolled the copy up and stuck it in the fake buffer tube. Especially with the Butt Stock Pad I added, unless you removed The stock, you'd never know it was there.

But it would be pretty irrefutable proof it's yours, especially when you pull off the Butt Stock, open the compartment, and pull out your legal proof of ownership.

Just a thought.

My current plan is to settle this issue with my other gun . . .

[DSLKSL]

I write mine inside the flash hider...wanna see?

[Majorlk]

In over forty years of firearms ownership and living in multiple states during that time, I have never been asked to prove ownership of a firearm.

[BillyJack2012]

OP, and this is a serious question, not sarcastic, are you new to gun ownership? Like Majorlk, I've shot and owned guns for 33 years and have never thought twice about something like this.

[Buckshot Barry]

I've got a slightly different slant on this. Firearms I frequently take outside of my home I keep their description and serial numbers in my iPhone in case they are lost or stolen. Because my iPhone is backed up in the Cloud, I do not keep all my firearms listed there, but at another secure location.

[ibewbull]

Recording the serial numbers at home in a fire proof box should be good for any of us. In the USA.
NJ CA and some other Peoples Republics may vary.
Check the NRA site and the insurance information page.

We had claims after a fire and needed serial numbers and estimates for a pay off.

New and Enhanced insurance coverages through the NRA Endorsed Insurance Programs. Enroll on-line for Life, Health and Accident and Individual Property and Liability insurance or call Toll free 1-877-NRA-3006 (1-877-672-3006.) New Commercial Property Liability Insurance Program for NRA Affiliated Clubs and Business Alliance Members, visit on-line or call Toll Free 1-877-487-5407.

[johncal]

Originally Posted by BillyJack2012

OP, and this is a serious question, not sarcastic, are you new to gun ownership? Like Majorlk, I've shot and owned guns for 33 years and have never thought twice about something like this.

Not at all. I've owned a gun for 40 years. I was asked 1 time when I was stopped for speeding if I had a weapon in the car. I answered honestly that I did not. Whether or not he had the right to ask I dont care. I prefer to be prepared. If anybody else here doesnt want to do it, I really dont care. I only offered up what I did for those that might be concerned.

[photoracer]

Originally Posted by johncal

In case it's ever required, I want to be able to prove my lawful ownership of gun on the spot.

What I did to make sure I'm always prepared for this was to make a copy of my receipt (with serial #)along with My photo drivers license.
I then folded and rolled the copy up and stuck it in the fake buffer tube. Especially with the Butt Stock Pad I added, unless you removed The stock, you'd never know it was there.

But it would be pretty irrefutable proof it's yours, especially when you pull off the Butt Stock, open the compartment, and pull out your legal proof of ownership.

Just a thought.

Are you really sure you want a photocopy of your DL in your rifle? If it was ever stolen they would have an instant means to identity theft.

[Muss Muggins]

I'm not sure I can prove I own my home in less than a couple weeks. Lighten up, Francis . . .

[Jerry N.]

So someone steals your gun and now they also have everything they need to steal your identity. I would not have my drivers license in the gun.

[johncal]

Originally Posted by Jerry N.

So someone steals your gun and now they also have everything they need to steal your identity. I would not have my drivers license in the gun.

Its a photo id with your face on it. Thats why it has your face on it. To prove its you. Not valid without looking at it. Im fine with my decision. But i appreciate the concerns.


Besides if they want to steal my face I'm ok with that. Maybe i could get an upgrade

[Majorlk]

I carry my DL on my person; why would I ever need a copy in the firearm somewhere to prove who I am?

How many ATF agents can dance on the head of a pin?

[686-380]

Originally Posted by Road Man

For proof of ownership I scan a copy of the receipt and keep a copy of it on my hard drive. The paper receipt gets placed in the safe. I do keep a database with serial numbers and lots of other information, this file is encrypted and password protected, but can be accessed using my cell phone if needed.

In the fake buffer tube I keep a printed copy of the BATFE letter that states that my Slide Fire stock is perfectly legal. No one has ever wanted to see the letter, but shooting it sometimes means lots of questions.

I placed a discreet p-touch label on all of my firearms with my name and cell phone number, but the database with the serial number is the option that I would use to prove ownership if a dispute ever occurred. The paper original will hold up in court if it ever got to that point, but the real reason I keep the original information is if I ever need to file an insurance claim. I have pictures of each of my firearms to back up the condition of the guns.

One reason to carry some sort of way to prove ownership of your gun is if there are two otherwise identical guns at the range and someone gets confused about which one is theirs. Of course it is always possible that there is no confusion, rather the "other guy" is trying to switch his worn out gun for my gun that is in better shape.

I also register my weapons with the manufacturer. I don't know if this would be of any help if one of my guns were somehow stolen. At least I have the warranty....

[fredg19]

I recently traveled from Kansas to Arizona passing through Tribal Indian land.

From what I have read when on tribal land pretty much they call the shots even when on a major highway. So "show me your papers" applies on tribal land since they make their own rules and laws.

I heard stories of guys getting pulled over by tribal police and they have a loaded gun in the car AND a conceal carry permit but the tribal police took possession of the gun anyway told the guy he could come to the station and provide proof of ownership and get it back. No loaded guns on tribal land period, even major highways passing through.

The gun was bought from a gun show private seller with no paperwork. He had no way to prove ownership and lost his gun.

I made sure to have copies of all my receipts for my guns while traveling and made sure to unload and lock up the gun and ammo in separate containers when traveling through tribal land even though I have a CCL that it good in all states that I was traveling through.

I read a few accounts of this which was enough for me to not take a chance, are the stories BS? Maybe, but I wanted to make sure I came home with all my guns. I did see a couple of people pulled over by tribal police going through Arizona.

[telero]

I have nothing to back this up, but...

As I understand it tribal land is still bound by Federal law, so shouldn't FOPA apply? As long as you are unloaded and locked out of reach (as defined in FOPA), there shouldn't be a problem. Loaded/concealed would be another issue.

[fredg19]

Originally Posted by telero

I have nothing to back this up, but...

As I understand it tribal land is still bound by Federal law, so shouldn't FOPA apply? As long as you are unloaded and locked out of reach (as defined in FOPA), there shouldn't be a problem. Loaded/concealed would be another issue.

I believe so... that is why I unloaded and locked up when passing through tribal land. It's the loaded gun in the car that gets the tribal police wound up and apparently they do not recognize or care about your CCL.

[MichiganScott]

There is no way I'm pulling over for tribal police because I'm not a tribal member. As long as I'm in my vehicle on a public right-of-way I have no reason to believe that they have any jurisdiction.

[pmosley]

Originally Posted by MichiganScott

There is no way I'm pulling over for tribal police because I'm not a tribal member. As long as I'm in my vehicle on a public right-of-way I have no reason to believe that they have any jurisdiction.

May want to give that decision more thought. Like many things in this life, all is not black and white.........
http://www.indiancountrynews.com/cri...on-reservation


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fredg19]

Originally Posted by MichiganScott

There is no way I'm pulling over for tribal police because I'm not a tribal member. As long as I'm in my vehicle on a public right-of-way I have no reason to believe that they have any jurisdiction.

And they will chase you down with the help of the local state troopers and put you in jail. I saw two different cars pulled over by tribal police on Highway 40 in Arizona or New Mexico I don't remember but the SUV was clearly marked as "Navajo Nation Police".

Do a Google image search for tribal police and see all the official vehicles.

[wbear]

In 1975 I was visiting my grandfathers farm in Ohio groundhog hunting. As I was commuting between hunting spots on I70 I was pulled over by an Ohio State Trooper.

He noticed that I had a large wooden gun case in the back seat, 20rd AR mags on the floorboard and ammo boxes on the front seat. He asked what I was doing and I explained the visit. He told me to slow down and watch it cause there were anti gun Troopers around who may not be so friendly.

At the time the OSP were known as the strictest in the nation and gave no quarter. Guess he took pity on me. If I had been made to show proof of ownership I would have been still in the slammer.

[Jerry N.]

Originally Posted by johncal

Its a photo id with your face on it. Thats why it has your face on it. To prove its you. Not valid without looking at it. Im fine with my decision. But i appreciate the concerns.


Besides if they want to steal my face I'm ok with that. Maybe i could get an upgrade

Your original post said your photo driver's license. In Michigan, our name address and more important, birth date is on your license. That's enough to open accounts in your name.

As for your face, don't be so casual. I know someone who does facial recognition work for law enforcement. You'd be surprised how your picture can be used. Of course, that's way on the very unlikely side of things, but it does happen.

Be careful.

[gm272gs]

And here I am - out of popcorn - again!

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by MichiganScott

There is no way I'm pulling over for tribal police because I'm not a tribal member. As long as I'm in my vehicle on a public right-of-way I have no reason to believe that they have any jurisdiction.

Good luck with that . . . .

[Majorlk]

Originally Posted by MichiganScott

There is no way I'm pulling over for tribal police because I'm not a tribal member. As long as I'm in my vehicle on a public right-of-way I have no reason to believe that they have any jurisdiction.

I hope you enjoy your stay in the tribal jail. On tribal lands the tribal police have ABSOLUTE jurisdiction.

As far as the Feds are concerned, these are independent, sovereign nations. Under certain circumstances, their laws supersede federal law. I would not bet that FOPA necessarily applies without verifying that first. It applies to NYS, but they routinely ignore it and arrest travelers quite often.

PS - Do you refuse to stop for a trooper in another state because you aren't a resident of that state?

[Majorlk]

Originally Posted by gm272gs

And here I am - out of popcorn - again!

I have popcorn but no butter.

[CrazyFingers]

Gun laws in Arizona - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's from Wikipedia, so take it for what it is.

[RED ZMAN]

Originally Posted by MichiganScott

There is no way I'm pulling over for tribal police because I'm not a tribal member. As long as I'm in my vehicle on a public right-of-way I have no reason to believe that they have any jurisdiction.

Hahaha, not worth getting shot or run off the road for. Won't pull over for a taillight being out, so you'll risk a felony?

They have TONS of power, they flex their muscles in NM occasionally and put roadblocks over state highways that cross their lands to protest or prove a point. Yeah, they can arrest the HELL out of you.

[fredg19]

Originally Posted by CrazyFingers

Gun laws in Arizona - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's from Wikipedia, so take it for what it is.

Ah perfect! Thanks for finding that.

From Wikipedia:

Navajo Nation police will seize any loaded firearm found to be accessible to the driver or passenger and confiscated firearms are not returnable unless the owner can establish proof of ownership of the firearm and ammunition by presenting a bill of sale or other evidence at the police station at a later date.

And below is exactly what I did through most of New Mexico and Arizona just in case since it's not clear where tribal land starts and stops.

During such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm or ammunition must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by johncal

Not at all. I've owned a gun for 40 years. I was asked 1 time when I was stopped for speeding if I had a weapon in the car. I answered honestly that I did not. Whether or not he had the right to ask I dont care. I prefer to be prepared. If anybody else here doesnt want to do it, I really dont care. I only offered up what I did for those that might be concerned.

That question gets answered "Why?"

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by fredg19

Ah perfect! Thanks for finding that.

From Wikipedia:

Navajo Nation police will seize any loaded firearm found to be accessible to the driver or passenger and confiscated firearms are not returnable unless the owner can establish proof of ownership of the firearm and ammunition by presenting a bill of sale or other evidence at the police station at a later date.

A picture of the gun with the serial number recorded (MiGuns app) would seem to constitute "other evidence," but I don't have any plans to get anywhere near a reservation with a gun.

[NMPinNYC]

I have reservations about this topic of traveling with firearms on Indian land...

[bill1917]

Concerning the broader topic of proof of ownership, remember the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. A lot of guns were confiscated, and the police demanded proof of ownership before returning them. If I remember right the NRA filed a suit against the city over this. Don't assume this could not happen again.

[CrazyFingers]

Originally Posted by bill1917

Concerning the broader topic of proof of ownership, remember the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. A lot of guns were confiscated, and the police demanded proof of ownership before returning them. If I remember right the NRA filed a suit against the city over this. Don't assume this could not happen again.

Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not saying it could not happen again. Armed law enforcement (local, state, or federal) can do whatever they want and there isn't anything you or I can really do about it except get shot.

But it isn't supposed to happen again.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by CrazyFingers

Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not saying it could not happen again. Armed law enforcement (local, state, or federal) can do whatever they want and there isn't anything you or I can really do about it except get shot.

But it isn't supposed to happen again.

Never use Wikipedia as a "go to" source . . .

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by NMPinNYC

I have reservations about this topic of traveling with firearms on Indian land...

George Armstrong Custer's last words: "Where the hell did all those Indians come from?"

[CrazyFingers]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Never use Wikipedia as a "go to" source . . .

I understand your point, but please show where the information was incorrect.

Clicking on the second reference in the Wikipedia article takes you to the LoC Bill summary:

SUMMARY AS OF:
4/7/2006--Introduced.

Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006 - Amends the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act to prohibit any U.S. officer or employee, or person operating under color of federal law, under control of a federal official, or providing services to such person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, from: (1) seizing, or authorizing seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under federal or state law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation; (2) requiring registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by federal or state law; (3) prohibiting possession of any firearm in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited; or (4) prohibiting the carrying of a firearm by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a federal agency in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency.

Authorizes any individual aggrieved by a violation of this Act to seek relief by bringing an action for redress and by bringing a civil action in U.S. district court for return of a confiscated firearm.

The current status of the bill and the relevant amendments can be found here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:H.R.5441: