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Old 10-22-2011, 09:56 PM
Snyderman Snyderman is offline
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I am a lifelong handgunner, and am relatively new to rifles and optics. One thing I have always wondered, why do people set up their red dots so that the front irons can be seen thru them? I see this on 22s to 5.56s and above. I thought the whole idea of the red dot was an unobstructed field of view. What am I missing?
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:11 PM
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Gopher Slayer Gopher Slayer is offline
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Redundancy/back up. If the batteries die or the optic fails, you still have a way to hit your target. Ideally, the co-witness is in the lower 1/3rd. That way you can use the dot without the sights getting in the way. Mine isn't used as a trainer, just a plinker/gopher exterminator. I like having a choice without taking the optic off and risking a shift in POI. My AK is setup the same way.

Try it......I think you'll like it.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:01 AM
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ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyderman View Post
I am a lifelong handgunner, and am relatively new to rifles and optics. One thing I have always wondered, why do people set up their red dots so that the front irons can be seen thru them? I see this on 22s to 5.56s and above. I thought the whole idea of the red dot was an unobstructed field of view. What am I missing?
Unlike a magnified optic, a 1x red dot has unlimited FOV designed to use with both eyes open. The other advantage is unlimited eye relief. Both are useful for fast target acquisition.

I enjoy using a 1x red dot because my eyes are older and don't focus as well on the sights as they used to. With a 1x red dot you focus only down range at the target.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:45 AM
rojodiablo rojodiablo is offline
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Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Unlike a magnified optic, a 1x red dot has unlimited FOV designed to use with both eyes open. The other advantage is unlimited eye relief. Both are useful for fast target acquisition.

I enjoy using a 1x red dot because my eyes are older and don't focus as well on the sights as they used to. With a 1x red dot you focus only down range at the target.
Thank you; that was a great description of how the rifle red dot works with sights. Makes it easy to understand for folks!!
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Old 10-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Snyderman Snyderman is offline
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Thanks guys. Ill have to check it out. I only have a 3-9x with a co-witness mount now. Im buying a red dot soon. I guess the flip up magpul sight allows for the best of both worlds.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:59 AM
Aceman58 Aceman58 is offline
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More food for thought: It's called co-witnessing, and it is used by military and police agencies. Since our weapons are used in real life and death situation, not targeting or plinking. Having optics with no magnifcations, like a RED DOT, that uses batteries to operate, as in Murphies law, it the battery dies, or something stops working, you can flip up the rear folding iron sites and you're back in the fight. Backup is important when your life is on the line, thus the invention of co-witnessing was born. Hope this helps..

Note: You can't really co-witness with magifications, it will blurr your optics, thus the invention of flip up front/rear sights, i.e. example MagPul MBUIS, but you should have a quick release on your scope to remove it before you can use the MBUIS. Red Dots are for up close from 12 up to at least 100yds depending on the size of your dot, 2 to 8 MOA, larger size covers your target. Just more food for you to digest..

Last edited by Aceman58; 11-07-2011 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:48 AM
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Co-witnessing the red dot so you can see the dot at the tip of the front sight with looking thru the rear sight is more than redundant. It gives you a single trajectory vs line of sight. If the aiming plane is different you get different trajectories to bring the bullet up to line of sight.

The constant trajectory is vital in battlesight riflery. The concept of battlesight is you use the same point of aim for every shot. If you zero the M4 Carbine at 200 meters the bullet will never stray more than 2 inched from line of sight from just forward of the muzzle to 220 meters. Just lay the front sight or dot where you want the bullet and send it. No metal computations required. Fast and accurate. (There is a happy first trajectory cross-over at 50 yards with 5.56mm, but this really is a 200 meter zero.)

This only holds true with .22LR out to maybe 75 meters but it's still good trigger time and sight setup.

If you shoot with both eyes open there is no need to open the front cover on a dot sight. Your natural binocular vision will "look around" the obstruction and you'll just see the dot on the target. This is a very good way to learn to shoot with a dot sight as it literally forces you to shoot the "right way" with both eyes open.

One of the first sights like this was the Armson OEG (occluded) gun sight and there was no way to look thru it at all. Still available as the link shows.

-- Chuck
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:20 AM
Aceman58 Aceman58 is offline
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Good stuff Chuck S, One more thing on the Red Dot, the only Red Dot I know is parallax free is the Aimpoint line of RDs. Aimpoint uses two lenses in the front so the RED DOT, once zero'ed, will hit that spot whether the dot is in the center of the 30mm tube or off to the side. Others like Vortex, SightMark, etc. uses only one lense and parallax can be off by a few inches within 50 yards (Vortex says that on there product, SightMark doesn't) but that is one of the many difference in price, $550 for Aimpoint ver. $149 and $79 for the two listed above (also pressurized, water proof 135 meters, solid long lasting batteries and solid electronics is the other cost). I will only take the Aimpoint to battle, the others for paper zombies..

Now for CQB, your still in the kill zone, so it's not a show stopper. But if you're attempting accurate shooint withing 50yards, well make sure the Red Dot is centered on anything that's not an Aimpoint..

Last edited by Aceman58; 11-08-2011 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:45 AM
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Nearly 100% light transmission is another advantage of the real Aimpoints and Eotechs vs the clones. As in telescopic sights the quality of the optics is important and, unsurprisingly, good optics cost more than mediocre.

-- Chuck
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