I really don't have much experience zeroing rifles and I have a lot of questions to ask. I understand the concept: Get your shots on paper, if the rifle is shooting too far to the right adjust the sights to the left, if the rifle is shooting too far to the left adjust the sights to the right, if it's shooting too high adjust the sights lower and vise versa so on and so forth. However late last summer I tried zeroing my TruGlo 5 MOA red dot at 30 yards and I had a terrible experience.

I couldn't get my shots anywhere near the paper, I couldn't even see where the shots were landing. Plus the range was packed and my time was running out. I had to call in one of the safety officers to help me out. Within a minute he had the rifle shooting on paper and showed me how to fine tune it. At that point I tried to zero the rifle to hit the center of the target. Problem was when I fired the rifle the rounds seemed to hit randomly all over the target. Again running out of time I called the guy back again and he had it hitting dead center within a minute.

This was my first and only experience zeroing in a firearm, it sucked and I don't look forward to doing it again. However I just bought a set of Magpul MBUS and I want to swap out the TruGlo for a Primary Arms 2 MOA red dot in another few months. Next month I am also going to order a rifle rest to see if that makes the process easier, the last time I used sand bags.

Now for the questions. For a rifle like the 15-22 shooting a .22LR round what's the optimum range to have this rifle zeroed? Ideally I would like to have this rifle zeroed to hit targets accurately from 1-100 yards. Secondly, what kind of targets should I use for zeroing my rifle? I see they have 25 Meter targets for the M16A2 that helps you zero in the rifle. Do they make something similar for a .22LR rifle like the 15-22? My final question revolves around the adjustments made to the optics/iron sights. Each click left, right, up and down how much adjustment does that typically equal to? I'd assume each click must be an inch or less of adjustment where the bullet lands on the target.

Thanks again for your time, any help would be appreciated as this issue has been haunting me for some time now.

Start at 25 yards and work your way up. If you zero to a specific distance you have compensate. Average drop for .22LR is 4-6 inches @ 100 yards (depends on the ammo). Many optics have built-in MOA marks for this. But a standard red-dot usually won't.


Those targets work just fine. Or pick up a standard sight-target like this: 94043 - Precision Sight-In Targets 100-Pack

It depends on the sight. Usually under one of the scope dials you will find the MOA click value (1/2, 1/4, etc.) If it's not there it should be in the manual for the optic. 1 MOA is equal to 1.05" @ 100yards. However, if you are like me and hate math, you can pick up reference cards from AccuScope or if you have a smartphone, you can get their app.

When I dial in this is what I do:
1 - steady the rifle
2 - take 3 shots aiming center bullseye
3 - determine the center of those 3 shots
4 - launch Accuscope app
5 - fill in the yardage, MOA, elevation and windage info
6 - click "calculate"
7 - adjust elevation and windage
8 - take 3 more shots
9 - repeat steps 3-8 if necessary, especially if dialing in longer distances.

This all depends on how secured your optic is. you need to make sure it's not moving or coming loose. And using a 5 MOA dot is kind big. That means the dot will cover 5.25 inches of target @ 100 yards. I prefer red dot for up to 50 yards and my 4x scope for 50+. But that's just me.

Hope this helps.

In addition to the above good advice, when zeroing any firearm/sights combination, shooting need to be done from a solid rest - at least sandbags under both the fore end and butt stock. An actual shooting rest is even better. Trying to zero without a solid rest is an exercise in frustration, and wastes ammo.

How to Zero your AR15 / M4 / M16A2 Platform: Mechanical Zero & the 25m Target - YouTube

^ I use a method similar to this guy's.



If someone else can get your rifle to hit paper, then you have to start thinking about what you may be doing wrong.

How is your eyesight? Are you employing the proper shooting fundamentals of sight, grip, trigger press, etc?


Good idea. I would also bring along a friend who has more experience zeroing a rifle to give you pointers.


Seeing that part of your issue is seeing the shots, use one of the Birchwood Casey hi-viz targets. That should help you see where the shots are landing.

The other issue you have is getting shots on paper. Don't be overly concerned about the 100 yard shot. Put your first target out 7 yds. See exactly where the rounds are impacting in relation to your point of aim. Make small adjustments.

Then push the target out to 10 yds, make small adjustments.

Then push the target out to 20 yds, and make small adjustments.

Then push the target progressively until you get to 50 yards. Each progression making small adjustments.

Then go for the 100 yard shot. If you're not using a magnified optic, then bring along some binoculars to see your target. Make the necessary adjustment to your sight.

The adjustment "click" on an optic can be found in the instruction manual of the optic. This is given in MOA. Then you have to do some math to figure out the MOA on target.

The click adjustment distance is dependent on the distance to target.

I'm just throwing out some numbers as examples. I rough guess that a 1 MOA dot covers an inch on a target set at 100yds.

A 1MOA dot roughly covers an area of an inch at 100yds. If the click adjustment is in 2MOA increments and you adjust a click, you've moved your point of aim 2 inches on the target.

A 3MOA dot roughly covers the area of 3 inches at 100yds. If the click adjustment is in 2MOA increments, and you adjust a click, you've moved your point of aim roughly 6 inches.

Then you also have to adjust for wind.

(The math & practical sighting confuses me. I try to keep it simple in terms I understand. The more experienced people will correct me.)


1. Sight in your irons to the distance you want.

2. Mount your optic solidly, no shakes or wobbles. I use a dab of blue thread locker on the mount screws to keep the screws from vibrating loose.

3. Leaving your irons up & the optic on, look through the iron sights as you normally would. Adjust the dot position to just over/on the top of the front sight post.

Done.

i know when my dad would always put a scope on a rifle, he would bore site it before it even left the house. i'm not familiar with this gun...yet...as i am thinking one may be my next purchase...is this an option with this 15-22? dad is no longer around, but his bore sighter is.

You can certainly bore sight a .22 just like you can any rifle.

The above gave you great advice. If you're having serious issues with it, I would also emphasize the fundamentals. If you go again and have problems, post up a photo of your target and we can help you out. Different shot patterns can tell us if you're jerking the trigger, slapping it, having breathing issues, etc.

I use a laser bore sight to make sight adjustments before going to the range. It at least gets me on paper.

I then work from there

__________________
-John

Bore sighting is good to get you close on target. The first time you put your scope on it could be off bad at even 25 yards so a big target would be best or make a closer shot cause if you are not hitting the paper you don't know where your hitting.

If your scope adjusts 1/4" 100yards 4 clicks would move it 1" at 100 yards, 8 clicks at 50 yards would move it 1", and at 25 yards 16 clicks would move 1". Hope this helps.

i guess i should have stated that bore sighting only gets you close, not zeroed. there seemed to be an endless stream of people around deer season that would knock on the door, ask dad to bore sight the gun because they got a new scope, then hand him a stack of targets and say let's go shoot(dad always had a 100yd range set up). i've shot so many peoples guns because of that. it amazing how people shoot the same gun differently. if i was zeroed in at 100yds, dad was an 1" left and 2" low of me. knowing that, we could use each others hunting rifles(always sighted in 2 each), just in case. that was a long winded, round about way of saying you can have a friend help you get close, but one might not be able to zero for the other.

This wasn't an option for me the first time since I was shooting at fixed targets at 30 yards, the new range I am joining has a lot more options. I guess the best approach is start zeroing at a target much closer.


Thanks, I think I am going to buy some of those.

By 1 MOA at 100 yards I assume you mean each click (If the sight adjustment is 1 MOA) would move the sight 1" to the left, right, up and down of where my shot is landing? I have a Motorola Droid Bionic and found the AccuScope app and was looking at it. Seems like a good app but how am I supposed to figure out the elevation and windage? This helps but I was hoping the process was simpler than I was making it but it seems it's more complex. The guy who zeroed my red dot at 30 yards made it look so easy. After what you told me I think I will only zero this rifle in at 50 yards. Down the road I wanted to buy a Ruger 10/22 and put a magnified optic, that will probably be a better idea than making my 15-22 an "Everything" rifle.

Yeah I was looking at this rest on Amazon: Amazon.com: MTM K-Zone Shooting Rest (Red): Sports & Outdoors

When I tried sighting in the rifle I only had bags under the front, the rear was tightly against my shoulder.

The sights on this rifle are 2.5" higher than bore center. If zeroed at 25 yards the bullet's trajectory will continue to climb and strike higher at 50 yards because of the barrel angle needed to adjust the trajectory to line of sight where originally zeroed.

Common mistake is to aim a 25 yard-zeroed rifle higher at 50 when it really needs to be aimed lower. This is really exaggerated if the rifle is zeroed very close in at (say) 15 or 25 feet! My not even be on the paper at 50 yards. It'll be way over the top.

I've found a good "battle sight" range for this rifle to be 50 yards. Bullet strikes a little low at shorter and longer ranges but good enough to chase shotgun hulls around on the range using a 4 MOA red dot aimpoint clone.

Precision shooting is possible but will take creation of a table of sight or scope settings. Too cold out for me to fool with this.

-- Chuck

Elevation and windage relates to how the rounds land on paper. Not the outside elevation or if the wind was blowing.

It's OK you had it at 30 yards. I said 25 because that's where I start, that's all.

If you are thinking of the Accuscope app or cards, go here: Scope Sighting Tool - How to Sight a Scope - Sight a Gun - Sight a Rifle - Sight in a Scope - Minute of Angle - MOA - AccuScope and watch the video. It shows how to sight in using the cards, but it's the same principle as the app.

Optics are set with directional arrows that say "Up" and "R". Turning the knob in the direction of the arrow will move the point of impact up or right. if you are already shooting high and right, the knobs turn the other way for down and left.

This target is designed for iron sights, but the principle is the same with optics. http://ohmr.ohio.gov/forms/ohmr2444-b.pdf

Just remember that "rear sight" is windage (left-right) and "front sight" is elevation (up-down) on the file above. And the arrows might not correspond to directions for optics, but will for your iron sights.

If you do go the wrong direction, you'll know it. just reverse the dial twice the amount of clicks.

I watched this video a few months back and the theory is sound but I don't know if it would apply to me since I have a .22LR rifle and I don't have A2 style sights.


Well my eyesight is perfect (20/20) but I will admit my shooting skills are only in the beginning stages. I have only shot at targets from 50-90 feet and while standing, never in a rest. When zeroing the rifle I tried my best, holding my breath and trying to gently squeeze the trigger until it broke. I know for a fact it's something I am doing something wrong.

Sadly I am not from the area so I am short of friends, I am hoping I can figure this out on my own.

The last time the targets didn't come close to hitting paper. I think they were landing way high out of my sight picture. When the range officer came buy I got behind a sighting scope to tell him where the shots landed and with that info he was able to fine tune the optic to land on paper. After what Big Dawg told me I think I will zero for 50 yards since I am not using a magnified optic. I will invest in another platform in time for that 100 yard shot, something with an optic that will help me compensate for the 100 yard shot.

The best advice I have gotten here is to start with targets that are close by and slowly move out making fine adjustments.

This I am dreading, I was hoping the process of zeroing would be less complex. I am going to try to avoid getting into the math when making adjustments to my irons/optics. It seems though based on what you say about the adjustments it's the dot coverage multiplied by the increments adjustments which equals how far you moved your point of aim. Hopefully if I can get the irons zeroed in correctly I can just use your advice of leaving the irons up and fixing the red dot to right on top of the front post.

I am counting the first time I tried this as a draw since I was under a lot of stress at the time and had time constraints.

It still moves; I know from learning the hard way.

BTW, there's no need to spend big (or even little) money on sighting-in targets; targetz.com has several styles that are free for the downloading and printing. The only downsize is most of them print 8.5x11. There is a section of multi-part targets that print on multiple pages and you tape them together.

There are several dozen different target styles available.

I think that's what I want, if I set the sights to 50 yards I assume shooting at targets that are closer the rifle will only shoot maybe an 1-2 inches lower at closer targets. I really want to keep is simple, set it and forget it.

That video was helpful and I might invest in this system down the road, for now I want to try the targets from CheaperThanDirt that you linked me. They seem to have the MOA grid and I assume they also have instructions on how to make the adjustments. I also appreciate you clearing up my confusion on windage/elevation. Thanks again, hopefully this information will get me on the road to properly adjusting my irons then my optic.

I am starting to see a lot of factors negatively effected my ability to zero my sights, poor technique and me generally. For now I am going to invest in that 100 pack of targets from CheaperThanDirt for $15. I am buying myself a real AR-15 in another month and will need them to zero in that rifle also.

I was looking at the Magpul MBUS PDF instructions: http://cdn.magpul.com/downloads/MBUS...514_Update.pdf

It seems at 100 meters windage is adjusted 3/4 of an inch from POI and elevation is adjusted 1 7/8 of an inch from POI. At 50 meters (Yards) would these adjustments be different?

I also learned I need an A2 sight tool to make adjustments to these sights.

The caliber may be different but the process is the same. I go through the zeroing process with my MAGPUL front & rear MBUS on my 15-22 the exact same way as my 15-Sport with it's fixed A2 sight.

The key is to look at the target. The projectile impact tells the truth. Adjust your sights according to the truth.



Fore end on bag (not barrel). Hand on grip, squeezing not to firm & not too light. Take a few deep breaths. My weak hand is not touching the rifle at all.

Slow down your breathing. I don't hold my breath. I break the shot during my natural respiratory pause on the exhale, before inhaling.

Press the trigger back with the pad of your finger slowly. Follow through on the trigger press all the way until it stops& do not release it right away.



I am short of friends in this area that shoot. There are only three of us who shoot. I had to figure things out on my own just like you are now.

I'm no expert. I just watched videos, read books, and tried to apply what I learned. Lots of trial and error.

Just practice, practice, and practice some more. With .22lr, you can practice without breaking the bank.

My first rifle was a Ruger 10/22 with a BSA 3-9X40 scope. It took me a few range trips to figure out how to zero, how to hold the rifle, how to shoot.



Farthest distance in that indoor range is 77ft.

That math is just to illustrate the difference between a 1 MOA dot v.s. a 3 MOA dot. Your original post stated you tried to use a 5 MOA dot to hit a 100 yard target.

A 5 MOA dot will cover 5" of the target(?) at 100 yards. So imagine trying to hit a pop can at 100yds with a dot that obscures your entire target and then some.

I figured it would be different since the ballistics on the .223 and .22 are different. I will look at that video again.


That's a new one for me, I always heard hold your breath as you break the trigger. I will try that one next time.



I have been reading, just now I spent the past 2+ hours reading on the subject and I am getting overwhelmed on the information since it's very technical. I guess like you will say it will come down to trial and error. It's obvious to move onto the next step I have to get 3 shots within an inch of each other. I think once I achieve that everything following afterwards will be easier.

Great, that should simplify things.

I think now I have a general understanding of what needs to be done but I will probably be in for some trial and error once in the field. I plan on using the Champion Targets from CTD:



94043 - Precision Sight-In Targets 100-Pack

This is a 16x16 target with 12 squares horizontally and vertically. Am I right in assuming each square is equal to 1 inch by 1 inch? Now according to the Magpul instructions the Windage adjustment (1 click) is 3/4 of an inch at 100 meters and Elevation (1 click) is 1 7/8 of an inch (1.87 inches or nearly 2 inches) at 100 meters. With those figures say I was to hit where 5R and 5D hit on the grid. Would I be correct in making 6-7 clicks to the right and 2-3 clicks down to hit dead center? Based on my division it comes out to to 6.6 clicks on Windage and 2.6 clicks on Elevation I guess I would just round up to the next click?

If this is all right that would be awesome and means I got it but I still have one lingering concern, the Magpul instructions say: "Point of Impact 3/4" Windage at 100 meters" and "Point of Impact 1 7/8" Elevation at 100 meters". Are these figures going to stay constant at less than 100 meters? I plan on starting out close maybe 3 yards, then going to 10, 20, 30, 40 onto 50 yards where I want to have my rifle zeroed at.

I'd not use that Redfield target unless you're using a telescope as there's no aiming point. And you should zero the iron sights first.

The M&P15-22 comes with USGI-type M4 Carbine sights (just not with a handle) that are adjustable for windage and elevation.

The M4 Carbine is zeroed with the rear sight all the way down with elevation changes made with the front sight only. This may or may not be possible with the M&P15-22 depending on the range you select for zeroing as you may have to raise the front sight too far or lack the travel to lower it far enough.

Start at "mechanical zero:" Rear sight all the way down (the range numbers are meaningless with .22LR) and the front sight post level with the top of the front sight A-frame.

Recommend 50 yards which means outdoors for most of us. If ya really gotta get a quick zero a 25 yard indoor range is better than nothing but you may run out of front sight adjustment. Don't move the rear sight.

-- Chuck

If those are the instructions, then your point of impact will move half as much at 50 yards per click. 1/4 as much per click at 25 yds, etc.

No you don't need a special tool to adjust a front sight on an AR. Most people do this with the tip of a 223 round. I have also used the point of my pocket knife. Tools are sold for this but they are pointless IMO.

Well all I am going to have on my 15-22 now are the MBUS and in a few months I will add a red dot as my primary sight. What target do you recommend? I am looking for just a general target that is cheap, in bulk and can be used to zero both irons and optics. I am a little confused with you say rear sights all the way down. They only adjust to the left and right. Do you mean the front sight?

Great that means my POI will be different for 7 yards, 20 yards, 40 yards and 50 yards. This makes things much more complicated. At least I don't need that tool.

US andAs I posted earlier, you can get all the sighting in targets you need FREE at targetz.com.

Free Targets for Shooters!

That's how it was for me. I read about different techniques. I watched different videos. It got confusing and overwhelming.

It was confusing because I had no practical frame of reference in which to put the information & technique into context. I put a few rounds down range and it started to click.

"Oh! So that's what the author/video meant when they said to..."


That's one that got me at first too. Think of the path of the bullet not as a straight line, but as an ballistic arc.

Draw an arc on a piece of paper. Divide the arc into 4 equal parts with perpendicular lines of the same height. The arc will intersect the perpendicular lines at different places.

In simple terms, this is what a projectile does in flight.

Hypothetically, let's say that the middle line intersecting the arc is your 50yd zero where point of aim equals point of impact. Will the bullet intersect the same spot on the other perpendicular lines on different points in the arc? Nope.

I'm not going to read through this entire thread again. I think I remember a statement that a .22lr bullet drop is 6". Think of it as being near the terminal end of that imaginary arc.

To compensate for the 6" drop at 100 yds, you have to hold up & compensate an equal amount.

Past 150 yards, the drop is so severe that it's not easy to gauge the hold needed to compensate.

This illustration (source = http://www.lassensharpshooters.com/L...ingFactors.htm ) is a good visual of bullet path & bullet drop. Notice the path starts out straight, then drops in an arc.


(Direct Source Image Link: http://www.lassensharpshooters.com/ballistics500011.jpg)

No you don't, but it just makes it easier.

Thank you for the link!

While it's an airgun, I found these three series of videos to be informational.

You can view the position of the intersection of his cross hairs in relation to the actual point of impact. You can also see the arc the pellet takes in flight.

1. Pigeon Shooting 100 Yards in 25mph wind [visible pellets] - YouTube

2. Air Rifle Pigeon Hunt Explained: Mil Dot Ranging Estimation - YouTube

3. Pigeon Hunting in Wind - Chairgun Demo using Mil Dot Scope - YouTube

This one is just amazing. He hits a tiny bird at 125 yds with an airgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38XtL-3SB2o

Yeah I just hope everything clicks this time, it's been very frustrating so far.

Well that I understand somewhat but I am talking about the adjustment points on the irons/red dot. Each adjustment is rated 3/4" of an inch and 1 7/8" inch at 100 yards but if I am trying to zero for 50 yards those figures change. I think all these iron sights should come with multiple figures for 10 yards to 300 yards depending on what the user wants his zero set to. I was asking this question on another sight and the person said if I had to make double the clicks at 50 yards and quadruple the clicks at 25 yards to make adjustments.

I was also thinking a pair of needle nose pliers would make the task easier.

Appreciate it.

Sounds like you've got all the "book" knowledge you need to be successful. Now you just need to keep all of this in mind and get in some trigger time.

You'll get an "A-HA!" moment, and things will fall into place.

Great, thanks JaPes and everyone else for the knowledge you guys shared. Once I get my new membership and get out there I will let you know how it went.

First thing you need to do is remember you are chasing the point of impact. So when it shoots to the right you adjust the sights so that the dot or reticle moves to the point where your bullets hit the target, to the right.
When you do that the barrel in relation to the sight moves the opposite direction so when you put the dot on the bulls eye the next time they will be closer or in the correct area of the target. Only pay attention to the arrows of up or right on the sight adjustments if they are going in the direction you want. Some foreign scopes point the wrong way, or used to.
Iron sights are the same principle but as always it depends on the range of MOA adjustments. I have some scopes that each click is 1/2 MOA. Those are usually short range or CQB optics like 1-4x or 1-6x.
I have some scopes with adjustments as fine as 1/10 MOA. Those are long range tactical scopes like 4-14x designed to engage targets out to 600m or more, way too long for a .22LR.
Normally you zero a .22LR at 50 yards or 100 yards depending on the scope. Not a centerfire bolt gun you usually adjust for hunting. Meaning you adjust it to give the greatest over all range of drop or rise so that you know anything in that range will be hit no more than 1" high to maybe 3" low. On my Remington 30-06 that means I usually go to the range and sight it to shoot 1-1.5" high at 100 yards that means I can hold right on the crosshair from around 50 yards to as long as 225 yards at least and know that it will be lethal. If I have to shoot longer then I have to either adjust the sight, use a scope with a ranging reticle or use Kentucky windage. I prefer a scope with turrets I can reset to zero so I can apply windage and elevation correction. But my late father, who was one of the great shots during WWII and hunting afterwards never bothered and just used a German Leitz 4x sniper scope with a single post on his 30-06 and never adjusted anything. And never missed either.

I totally agree - this is what I was going to say.

When it comes to sighting in a new gun, I'm no good at all. A couple of years ago, I finally bought a laser bore sighter. It was a cheap one - the kind that sticks out of the muzzle, with several adapters for different calibers.

At first, I regretted it, because that it cost more than I wanted to pay. However, I've sighted in each gun, sometimes several times, and easily saved that much in ammo.

I can get fairly close with the laser. In fact, I don't even bother firing any shots for my pistols - the laser is probably as close as I'll ever get.

For my rifles, I wait until almost dark and then walk off about 50 yards (from my deck to the edge of my back yard is about 50, but I've also done this at the range). I put up a white sheet of paper or tag board and line up my sights. Even with my .223, this is a great place to start - makes my range time much more productive.

Thanks for explaining how it works, I learned a lot from your post. I had no idea the barrel moves opposite of the sight when adjusting. One thing I don't understand is why I have to pay attention to the up or right arrows if everything is zeroing in correctly?

Would a bore sighting device also work with irons? I might buy one since I am getting a red dot shortly. I never used a bore sighter before I assume you can lock the upper/lower closed with this device in the bore? With the BCG removed I assume. What brand would you recommend? I too don't want to spend too much money.

Amazon.com: Bushnell Laser Boresighter: Sports & Outdoors

^ That's the one I use. I put on the .22 caliber nub on the end of it & put it down the muzzle. You can use it with irons, dot, scope, whatever.

I chose this type over the cartridge type because I can use it with different caliber firearms.

Again, it gets you on paper. You still have to make adjustments from there.