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  #1  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:04 AM
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Red face Aguila 60GR SSS functioned flawlessy

Bowling pin top rimfire match at 21 feet.

The 15-22 sent them downrange every time and the pintops were taken off the table with authority.

When I did my part.
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:07 AM
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Is that the ammo that almost sounds like it comeing out of a suppressor?
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  #3  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardC View Post
Bowling pin top rimfire match at 21 feet.

The 15-22 sent them downrange every time and the pintops were taken off the table with authority.

When I did my part.
You just think they functioned flawlessly, just like xxxxxxxxxxxxxx that is clueless about ballistics. If you try and shoot them any farther down range than about 10 yards you will find they start keyholing. A 1:16 twist rate barrel is not sufficient spin rate to stabilize the bullet. Same reason you can't get 77g Sierra Matchking .223 rounds to shoot accurately in a military 1:9 twist rate M-16 barrel. When a bullet is not spinning fast enough for its sectional density it starts to rotate around its balance point. In short it tips over and starts to flip, then you don't know where the bullet will be going. The Aguila SSS needs a 1:9 spin rate barrel to prevent this.
Nothing you can do with a 1:16 twist rate barrel is going to prevent this. The only thing you did was hit targets so close it was not happening yet. Nobody said they won't fire out of any .22 except those with a match chamber (don't try this with the PC model).
And by the way at our bowling pin matches we shoot full size tenpins with .22lr handguns (and centerfire). And they have to be completely cleared off the table. I usually average around 3sec for 5 pins with my race Buckmark(you can check the scores at our club website if you think I'm kidding).
I use Mini-Mags which are plenty able to take a 3.5# bowling pin off a table with 1 shot.

Last edited by handejector; 02-29-2012 at 06:07 PM. Reason: insult removed
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:23 AM
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Photoracer, who peed in your sandbox?

I think you could have replied with a bit more tact and avoided calling the op an idiot. You make some great points but lost me after your initial insult.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:08 AM
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Sorry I tend to get cranky at my age (64) when people think they are successfully defeating the laws of physics. Sort of like the same people who use really hot loads in their magnums because they like how the pins fly off the table, not realizing that they should be using the weakest load they can make up that get the job done because you can shoot faster. The weakest loads I reload in my 41 MAG revolver are the ones for bowling pins. The hottest ones are the ones I need when I am carrying in the wilds around major predators.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:15 PM
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Just to add to the subsonics key holing, I have shot a few thousand out of a kimber 1911 22 conversion and they do go sidways at a distance as few as 10 yards (sometimes). Barrel 5 inch 1-16. These ammo test pics where at 10 yards. 5 shot groups. They do cycle the 1911 nice.



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Old 02-27-2012, 08:03 PM
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I keep the Aguila 60gr in my Ruger Bearcat. I want them to tumble and keyhole if I ever have to shoot something with them.
Seems like that might do more damage than a .222 (+/-) diameter hole.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photoracer View Post
You just think they functioned flawlessly, just like xxxxxxxxxxxxxx that is clueless about ballistics. If you try and shoot them any farther down range than about 10 yards you will find they start keyholing. A 1:16 twist rate barrel is not sufficient spin rate to stabilize the bullet. Same reason you can't get 77g Sierra Matchking .223 rounds to shoot accurately in a military 1:9 twist rate M-16 barrel. When a bullet is not spinning fast enough for its sectional density it starts to rotate around its balance point. In short it tips over and starts to flip, then you don't know where the bullet will be going. The Aguila SSS needs a 1:9 spin rate barrel to prevent this.
Nothing you can do with a 1:16 twist rate barrel is going to prevent this. The only thing you did was hit targets so close it was not happening yet. Nobody said they won't fire out of any .22 except those with a match chamber (don't try this with the PC model).
And by the way at our bowling pin matches we shoot full size tenpins with .22lr handguns (and centerfire). And they have to be completely cleared off the table. I usually average around 3sec for 5 pins with my race Buckmark(you can check the scores at our club website if you think I'm kidding).
I use Mini-Mags which are plenty able to take a 3.5# bowling pin off a table with 1 shot.
Was this necessary as a reply? WOW

Last edited by handejector; 02-29-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wattsnot View Post
Was this necessary as a reply? WOW
Sometimes they are, to educate and inform.
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:21 PM
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Whether or not they keyholed, I think his point was that they worked for what he was using them for. Maybe it helped knock the pins down. ;-)
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:27 PM
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ummm wasnt that one of the selling points of the original m16?the m16 was billed as a meat chopper because of end over end spin and thought to be a more effective rifle because it inflicted more damage than any other round at the time,after this problem was (fixed by the military reports of barely effective knitting needle size wounds were reported-this spin may make the .22 a more effective round as proven by history,if the round is still accurate within reason and causes maximum damage .what harm does tumbling do unless you are trying to one hole a paper target?i do not think any of us bought a 15-22 to shoot dime size groups at 100yds---btw from now on how about trying to share your knowledge and educate new shooters instead of chastising them-we all ask a few
(dumb questions) along the road to knowledge
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:26 PM
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Gentlemen:

Perhaps I could have saved some unnecessary fuss and feathers if I had taken time to preface my report with:

" While it is common knowledge that 60GR rimfire bullets require a faster rate of twist than the 15-22 offers, I thought this upcoming pintop match at our club would be a great opportunity to test out the old heavy & slow versus faster and light debate but with rimfire ammo on bowling pintops with rifle and pistol... So, I ordered a few boxes from Midway USA with the intent of trying them out and having some fun with friends while doing so."



Photoracer:

I would like to point out that the match rules were published months in advance, and specified bowling pin tops at 21 feet. It was NOT a silhouette match nor a metric prone regional.


"Nobody said they won't fire out of any .22 except those with a match chamber." Really?

From the Midway website :
" This ammunition is new-production and non-corrosive and is recommended for use in bolt action rifles. "

SSS Sniper Subsonic Ammo 22 Long Rifle 60 Grain Lead Round Nose

That's a pretty clear warning that it may not function properly in semi-autos, which is why I thought to share my experience in the 15-22 forum.

Your assertion that I am an idiot, and ignorant of internal and external ballistics knowledge is misguided.

Your condescending lecture belongs in another thread, not this one, as does your self-aggrandizing boast about your Superhero performance with a "race Buckmark" at your own club matches.
I really don't care.

What does give me concern is your continued irrational response to a forum member simply sharing observations from a shooting event.

Do you react this way in real life?

Last edited by handejector; 02-29-2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: retort removed
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattsnot View Post
Was this necessary as a reply? WOW
Sometimes they are, to educate and inform.
I wouldn't advise it.

If a reply needs an insult to make the point, I'd suggest moving along.
Free advice.
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Lee Jarrett

Last edited by handejector; 02-29-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:24 PM
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I have read that the twist rested on the m&p 15/22 is slightly faster than the saami standard 1-16" twist. This appears to be supported by the fact that even as far out as 100yds my 15/22 will shoot feed and most importantly group with aguila's 60g sss load with no signs of keyholing evident.

As to the comments about twist rate above they are by in large incorrect. Bullet weight is only one factor in bullet stability bullet LENGTH is much more important. A short blunt 60g bullet can be stabilized quite effectively from a 1-14 twist as is the case with the old sierra smp from a 22/250, with a soft lead 22lr bullet being even shorter needing even less twist.

This group was fired at 100yds, I fired two such groups but the first one and smaller of the pair landed on my backer and not on the plate where I wanted it so its not shown.

This said I would be reluctant to shoot too many of these as the bolt velocity"felt" much faster than 36 or 40 g high velocity loads.

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Old 06-04-2012, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.W.Dale View Post
I have read that the twist rested on the m&p 15/22 is slightly faster than the saami standard 1-16" twist. This appears to be supported by the fact that even as far out as 100yds my 15/22 will shoot feed and most importantly group with aguila's 60g sss load with no signs of keyholing evident.

As to the comments about twist rate above they are by in large incorrect. Bullet weight is only one factor in bullet stability bullet LENGTH is much more important. A short blunt 60g bullet can be stabilized quite effectively from a 1-14 twist as is the case with the old sierra smp from a 22/250, with a soft lead 22lr bullet being even shorter needing even less twist.

This group was fired at 100yds, I fired two such groups but the first one and smaller of the pair landed on my backer and not on the plate where I wanted it so its not shown.

This said I would be reluctant to shoot too many of these as the bolt velocity"felt" much faster than 36 or 40 g high velocity loads.

The correct twist rate for Aguila 60g SSS is 1:9. Not very close to the 15-22's 1:15.6. It is also the longest bullet made in .22LR, requiring the short CCI-Stinger case if I am not mistaken. I have some myself and also experimented with them in the past. Since my AR15-22 is the PC model and has a match chamber I won't shoot them out of that or my Remington 597 with its match chambered Volquartsen CF bull barrel. Since the 60g SSS is about the same length as a 55-62g .223, and the standard AR is also a 1:9 twist you are correct that the issue is bullet length. The best platform to shoot them out of, short of a a custom 1:9 twist barrel (you can get 10/22 barrels in this twist rate) is any standard AR rifle with a CMMG/Ceiner/Stag .22 conversion (not a dedicated upper because those all have 1:16 in them) so you can use the twist rate of the AR barrel (1:7 to 1:9). Shooting them out of a barrel with a 1:14 twist is incorrect by any accuracy standard, period. That does not mean that you might not have conditions that would produce no external forces on the bullet so as to have no random longitudinal rotation. In otherwords you might luck out for a few groups. My own experience is that out to 100 yards, under normal circumstances, you can expect defections from keyholing to hit around 20% of the time, on average.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photoracer View Post
It is also the longest bullet made in .22LR, requiring the short CCI-Stinger case if I am not mistaken.
Well this thread sure went in a bad direction fast. Just going to throw this out there. The Stinger uses a longer case, not a shorter case.

My understanding is that the Aguila uses a .22short case. Just remember that we are all here to have fun!

Last edited by TacoDaTugBoat; 01-03-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 Thread, Aguila 60GR SSS functioned flawlessy in Smith & Wesson Rifles and Shotguns; Bowling pin top rimfire match at 21 feet. The 15-22 sent them downrange every time and the pintops were taken ...
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