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Old 06-25-2012, 02:39 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Default HELP! New guy with major FTF problems!

Hi all, new to the forums but have been lurking for a bit since I picked up my 15-22 MOE a couple weeks ago. Went to the range today and ran about 400 CCI AR Tactical rounds through it, and had major FTF issues. At least 1 round every magazine would lodge on the ramp and the firing pin would strike the side of the case. The interesting thing is that it was more often than not around the 20th round in the mag, close to the end.

I LOVE the gun, and other than the FTF issues it was a blast to shoot, but I'm sure I'm like the rest of you in that something like this can tarnish your view of a firearm. I don't want to jump to conclusions, and I know it needs it's break in period still, but I was wondering if any of you had similar issues or any insight into what I can do before I ship it off to S&W (my last resort, I do not want to do this). I'll attach a few pics of my gun and the rounds that were struck when they were lodged on the ramp. Each of them bent and had a slice in the middle of their nose where I'm assuming they were caught on the ramp. The bolt would close about 3/4 of the way and I could see the round caught in there before I popped it out.

Oh, and yes, I cleaned the gun before I ever fired it. No extractor issues or anything, just this feeding nonsense toward the end of my mags (in all 3 it was the same thing so I don't really think it's a magazine issue).

Thanks in advance for all the help and looking forward to being a part of your community!




Last edited by pmbspyder; 06-25-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:02 PM
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Not really an expert with this, although I have an M&P-15-22 and have had no malfunctions in the couple hundred rounds I've put through it. In looking at the ammo it appears to my untrained eye have a bit longer overall length than it should. Compare them to some other brands and see if that's the case. If so, I'll bet that's your problem.
Jim

Oh, almost forgot, Welcome to the Forum.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:11 PM
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Does this happen when loading from one particular magazine? Or from several?

While I agree that it could be an ammo issue, the first thought that came to my mind was the magazine.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:11 PM
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seems that many issues such as this are caused by the loading of the magazine itself. If the brass is not stacked correctly they just will not leave the magazine correctly.

This may not be your issue but its a good place to look.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:22 PM
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Most feeding problems disappear when the loading method described in the manual is used.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:13 PM
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nice looking gun. since it seems to be a specific round across all 3 mags, id agree that is probably a loading issue.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:18 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Thanks for the replies guys. I'm stumped on this one. I'm using ammo that is recommended specifically for this gun (which disproves the length issue), I'm loading 1 round at a time exactly like it says in the manual, and I'm not overloading the mags. I checked everything out when I cleaned it today and everything looks good. I don't know what's up. The only thing I did to the mags was RIT dye the followers black, but that shouldnt have any effect on performance. I guess I need to wait until I can get to the range again to see if the problem will eventually self correct or if I got a lemon. Any other theories or helpful ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks fellas!!
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:22 PM
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I know I read somewhere in another thread that the newer guns the guys weren't loading the magazines to the full stated capacity as it caused issues. Try loading only 20 rounds into each mag and see what happens?

Hope that helps!
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:27 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copper06 View Post
I know I read somewhere in another thread that the newer guns the guys weren't loading the magazines to the full stated capacity as it caused issues. Try loading only 20 rounds into each mag and see what happens?

Hope that helps!
Hmmm that's strange, but would make sense as it was always towar the very end of the mag that I had issues. Do you have a link to that info? Thanks for the thought by the way!
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copper06 View Post
I know I read somewhere in another thread that the newer guns the guys weren't loading the magazines to the full stated capacity as it caused issues. Try loading only 20 rounds into each mag and see what happens?

Hope that helps!
Nonsense. At the range Saturday we had about a dozen people shooting 15-22s over the course of the day - some bought within the last month or so. No feeding problems from any of them. If short-loading is necessary, there's something wrong with the loading method.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbspyder View Post
Thanks for the replies guys. I'm stumped on this one. I'm using ammo that is recommended specifically for this gun (which disproves the length issue), I'm loading 1 round at a time exactly like it says in the manual, and I'm not overloading the mags. I checked everything out when I cleaned it today and everything looks good. I don't know what's up. The only thing I did to the mags was RIT dye the followers black, but that shouldnt have any effect on performance. I guess I need to wait until I can get to the range again to see if the problem will eventually self correct or if I got a lemon. Any other theories or helpful ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks fellas!!
If you used a hot dye bath, it is possible you deformed the followers. Not saying you did, just trying a process of elimination.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
If you used a hot dye bath, it is possible you deformed the followers. Not saying you did, just trying a process of elimination.
Hmm, they sat in a simmering dye bath for a while, but hot water shouldn't deform polymers like these. You think that could have actually happened? I would find it very hard to believe but I guess it would be a leading theory. They look perfect but I guess if something is slightly out of spec it could cause a feed issue at a certain point in spring tension toward the end...

Interesting thought, thank you
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbspyder View Post
Hmm, they sat in a simmering dye bath for a while, but hot water shouldn't deform polymers like these. You think that could have actually happened? I would find it very hard to believe but I guess it would be a leading theory. They look perfect but I guess if something is slightly out of spec it could cause a feed issue at a certain point in spring tension toward the end...

Interesting thought, thank you
The polymer in the followers is comparatively soft, so who knows. I think the simmering (that's just at the boiling point) might have been too hot, but I don't know that for sure.

Just a theory ...
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
The polymer in the followers is comparatively soft, so who knows. I think the simmering (that's just at the boiling point) might have been too hot, but I don't know that for sure.

Just a theory ...
Easy test

get a NEW Mag and try it.....

i have used RIT dye many many time... but not in this way... usualy it is Boiling water.... that COULD deform these plastics/Poly in my opinion
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:27 PM
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Yeah well I live in MD so I have to travel pretty far to get mags. I emailed customer service to see if I could get just the followers, so we shall see. I'm hoping it's just that and I don't have to send my gun in!
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:41 PM
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So just as a follow up, I called S&W and spoke to "Jeff". Really nice guy, took my name and address and told me he'd have 3 followers dropped in the mail and on their way to me. Now that is customer service!!! I will report back after my next range trip in a week or so, and hopefully this will mitigate my FTF issues...
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:58 PM
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good luck, looking forward to the results.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:12 PM
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I found this in order to explain it better to you (and others)

The Mag-Snag is a common problem when you're reloading incorrectly.



Avoid this problem by simply staggering rounds.



Check these videos out too:

Smith&Wesson M&P15-22 Instructional Series: Magazine Loading

New spin on loading the magazines!

Last edited by E6type; 06-25-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:51 PM
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Follow E6type's second link, the "new spin" link. It's been rock solid for me.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:53 PM
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tap the mag. this seats all rounds to the rear. Think every Nam movie you have ever seen
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:12 PM
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Thanks fellas, I'm gonna try all the advice given in this thread, I'm convinced this is not a gun problem, more a magazine/me issue. Like everyone else I could swear I'm loading correctly (just like in my other firearms) but time to swallow my pride and troubleshoot a bit! Thanks again everyone...
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:31 PM
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Did you try another brand of ammo? I've had off and on issues with cci tactical to the point I've stopped purchasing it (initially loved it). last couple lots i got at cabelas had issues w/ loose casings to the point where normal loading will slightly skew the bullet in the casing causing issues. I don't have these issues with the winchester m-22, or either of the federal bulk packs (the federals have probably used 10k+).
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:59 PM
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Nah I haven't tried different stuff yet, but next time I go to the range I'm gonna run a different brand and see if it helps...
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:25 PM
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Try some federal bulk, or even a 50pk or federals, grab a box of cci mini mags will your at it and give em a try, could be a ammo issue? Or loading issue,
I had a problem with mine doing the same thing when i first got it ( used from a friend) started loading the mags properly and the problem hasnt happened in ohh.. 1k+ rounds
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:18 AM
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Thanks guys, these responses make me feel better. I'd much rather fix something I'm doin than have to fix something wrong with the gun!
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:23 PM
theflyshark theflyshark is offline
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This was my first trip to range with my new 15-22. I had the same issue today with FTF and the firing pin hitting the side of the round. I done a lot of research on this gun before I bought it and already knew to make sure to stager each round. I started with CCI mini-mag and had 2 FTF within the first 100 rounds. Switched to Federal champion 525 bulk pack and ran perfect, shot around 100 rds. Went back to CCI and had 3 more FTF shooting a total of 175 round of CCI with 5 FTF. Continued with Federal and only issue I had was one time bolt did not hold open on last round. I shot around 400 rounds of the Federal. Now I only have 1 magazine so its not that. I do remember during my research that the round needs to be angled up for better feeding so I was looking for that as well. Let me know what you find out.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:35 PM
theflyshark theflyshark is offline
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Here are some Pics from the range today
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:56 PM
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Hmm interesting that ammo had that much to do with it. The only difference I see is that my round was loose when I pulled the mag, it wasn't still stuck in there. I'm hoping to get to the range either Friday or Tuesday so we'll see what's up with my rig. I will report back for sure.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflyshark View Post
This was my first trip to range with my new 15-22. I had the same issue today with FTF and the firing pin hitting the side of the round. I done a lot of research on this gun before I bought it and already knew to make sure to stager each round. I started with CCI mini-mag and had 2 FTF within the first 100 rounds. Switched to Federal champion 525 bulk pack and ran perfect, shot around 100 rds. Went back to CCI and had 3 more FTF shooting a total of 175 round of CCI with 5 FTF. Continued with Federal and only issue I had was one time bolt did not hold open on last round. I shot around 400 rounds of the Federal. Now I only have 1 magazine so its not that. I do remember during my research that the round needs to be angled up for better feeding so I was looking for that as well. Let me know what you find out.
It may not apply, but with my daughter's Sig Mosquito, I tried running CCI Mini Mag 36 grain through it and had FTF at least 3 times in each magazine. Load up Winchester M-22 40 grain and it functions flawlessly.

I have been running the Win M-22 40 grain exclusively in my 15-22 and after 1,500 rounds have had only 4 FTF/FTE.

I'm heading to the range tomorrow and still have a box of CCI mini-mags 36 grain so I'll load them up, see what happens and report back.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:30 PM
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I'd been having FTE problems with my 15-22, made some adjustments and went to the range today. No FTE, which is great. But surprisingly, 200 rounds Federal bulk = no problems at all, but 100 rounds CCI AR Tactical gave me 2 FTF. First I'd had. Only 2, but surprised to get more with CCI than Fedral, like you.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:13 PM
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I've been hearing really good things about that win m22 stuff, may have to give that a try... Any and all feedback on ammo is appreciated, I wanna find what my gun like before I go out and order a case
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:04 AM
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I had a similar mag jam issue across a half dozen 10-round mags when my rifle and mags were new. What I did was fully load them all and let them sit that way for a couple of weeks and the problem went away. I had read about, and loaded the mags the 'correct' way both before and after this btw. I now store them loaded as well and I don't have the problem ever. Fed bulk #745 runs fine in mine..

Doing the same thing also fixed the same problem in some new metal 5 round mags I got for a win mod 69 bolt 22. I assume it helps the mag springs settle in a bit..

Dave
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:17 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna go load them up now!
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Old 06-27-2012, 04:17 PM
deallad deallad is offline
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next time you go to the range ask another 15-22 owner for one of his mags AND ammo and try it if its your mags at fault it will show and get him/her to fire yours and if they have the prob
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  #35  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:11 PM
theflyshark theflyshark is offline
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Originally Posted by daveomatic View Post
I had a similar mag jam issue across a half dozen 10-round mags when my rifle and mags were new. What I did was fully load them all and let them sit that way for a couple of weeks and the problem went away. I had read about, and loaded the mags the 'correct' way both before and after this btw. I now store them loaded as well and I don't have the problem ever. Fed bulk #745 runs fine in mine..

Doing the same thing also fixed the same problem in some new metal 5 round mags I got for a win mod 69 bolt 22. I assume it helps the mag springs settle in a bit..

Dave
Just picked up 2 new mags and now all 3 are loaded up, heading to range again tomorrow after work, hopefully everything runs good. I'll let you guys know.
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  #36  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:19 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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While I don't have a problem loading mags beforehand, and it may be better having been done in a more comfortable, less-rushed environment, I don't think keeping them loaded vs not would/should make a difference. If the springs "settle" by letting them sit, then that would mean the steel is taking a permanent set, which should not be possible on a properly designed spring. Or if it is, it will occur the first time it's used, then be the same thereafter.
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  #37  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:36 PM
theflyshark theflyshark is offline
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Back from range and got same results. Shot over 500 rounds of federal and runs perfect. Shot 2 clips of CCI mini mag and each clip had 1 FTF. Guess I rather shot federal anyways since its cheaper.
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  #38  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:20 PM
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knock on wood, up to 800 rounds without any issues.
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  #39  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:35 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Trying to get back to the range this weekend, but it may be next week unfortunately.
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  #40  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:12 PM
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I registerd to post a reply to this thread, but I have had a 15-22 for about a month and a half or so. I had a similar problem two weeks ago. I went to the range to try 5 different types of ammo. CCI Mini Mag, Golden Bullet, Wild Cat, Wincherster M-22, Federal Champion. All of them ran fine except the CCI Mini Mag which was doing the exact same thing as the OP's. Rounds would jam in the gap on the magazine feed ramp. I did notice the top round was almost level rather than canted upwards like they normally are. The Mini Mags were the last ones I ran that day so I figured things just might be dirty, but then I decided to use the same mags I had problems with and load them with Federal Champion and they ran fine.
One thing I noticed was the Mini Mags felt a little sticky and I think they have a wax coating or something one them, but not sure. I was thinking that possibly I got a bad batch because I have used the prior to this incident and they ran fine. I have also used CCI Tactical with not problems, it was just those mini-mags that were jamming ever 5th round or so.
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  #41  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:55 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Hmm maybe cci is dropping the ball on qc? I'd find that hard to believe though. I'm running the ar tactical and those are the ones that seem problematic for me. Everyone swears by cci mini mags but seems like federal and m22 are having the most consistent positive feedback. Thanks for the reply!
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  #42  
Old 07-02-2012, 11:24 PM
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Default Same problem

I just picked up my FDE Magpul on Tuesday and put a quick 75 rounds through on sat. Had a FTF about every 10-15 rounds!!! Was horrible. I don't want to buy any new mags until the FDE ones are available. What a pain
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  #43  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:20 AM
Intania072 Intania072 is offline
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Default too much lube in front of the bolt is another cause

I did have that FTF problem almost once (or more) every 10 rounds. (CCI-Mini-mag)

I found out later that the front of the bolt got too much lubrication. Since I am fairly new to the shooting(2 months), I lube everything without knowing where not to.

So, make sure that the front of the bolt does not have any lube.. if it helps.
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  #44  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:36 AM
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Took my 15-22 to the range today and got about 6 FTF in around 400 rounds fired. All 6 were CCI Mini-Mag hollow points that I had purchased a couple of weeks ago at Wally World. Each round stovepiped at the top of the magazine and got tweaked by the bolt. The FTF's seemed to occur at random intervals while I was trying to sight in my red dot. I was careful while loading the magazines to insure that rounds were staggering properly.

Once I got through the 100 rounds of Mini Mags, I shot around 200 rounds of bulk Remington Golden's, 50 rounds of old CCI Blazers, and 40 rounds of American Eagle's without incident.

Last edited by Martimus; 07-04-2012 at 01:39 AM.
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  #45  
Old 07-04-2012, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intania072 View Post
I did have that FTF problem almost once (or more) every 10 rounds. (CCI-Mini-mag)

I found out later that the front of the bolt got too much lubrication. Since I am fairly new to the shooting(2 months), I lube everything without knowing where not to.

So, make sure that the front of the bolt does not have any lube.. if it helps.
There is no need for any lubrication on the bolt face.
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  #46  
Old 07-04-2012, 06:18 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Ran another 500 rounds through this week, stil having about 1ftf every mag. Tried different ammo with no such luck and it's staying pretty consistent around the 20th rnd that it's happening. I'm still waiting on the new orange followers and will report back. I have to think it has something to do with it....
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  #47  
Old 07-06-2012, 12:46 AM
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Clean gun thoroghly, load 2 rounds less than magazine will hold for awhile see if problem still is there. after mag spring wears a little feed it max capacity rounds. It fixed my problems. its like the first couple of rounds were to snug to feed properly. Once spring wears a little problem goes away
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  #48  
Old 07-06-2012, 10:27 AM
Plumbago Plumbago is offline
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Most likly just a stagger loading issue. Also try some different ammo. Most importantly, Check your mag springs and be certain they are in the correct direction. I found some brand new mags upon delievery with the springs in backwards.......best regards Plum
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  #49  
Old 07-06-2012, 01:52 PM
pmbspyder pmbspyder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumbago View Post
Most likly just a stagger loading issue. Also try some different ammo. Most importantly, Check your mag springs and be certain they are in the correct direction. I found some brand new mags upon delievery with the springs in backwards.......best regards Plum
Backwards? How can you tell?
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  #50  
Old 07-06-2012, 07:41 PM
Plumbago Plumbago is offline
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Mr Spyder: When you assemble the mag, the open end of the spring should be toward the front , or bullet end of the follower and mag. This generally holds the front of the follower in a more upward tensioned position aiding bullet feed. You might also try putting the spring in from the other end, turning it over to achieve the same position as above...I have found some springs run up and down in the mags smoother better one way then another.....best regards Plum
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