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Old 09-14-2012, 10:27 AM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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Default Smaller Peep Hole in MOE Rear?

My old eyes are such that I almost need my red dot or scope on my 15-22, but I still like to shoot irons (okay, MBUS plastics). When I was shooting the other day at the range, the fellow shooting irons next to me mentioned that moving the stock back further helped him, making the sight hole smaller. I moved mine back to the last notch, and it helped marginally, but not enough.

The problem is, with or without glasses, the rear peep hole is VERY blurry. I find myself focusing on it as best I can, trying to center the front sight in it, then try to hold that position while trying to aim the whole thing at the target, which is a blur for me as well.

I'm thinking a smaller peep hole in the rear of my MOE sight would help. I'm already using the smaller of the two, but I don't think it's small enough.

Has anyone ever tried to make the hole smaller? Maybe by gluing a short piece of tubing into the larger hole (which I could remove without messing up the smaller hole)? I would also consider a new rear sight, if I knew beforehand that the hole(s) were a good bit smaller AND that it folded as well. It needs to fold like the MBUS to clear my scope. But I'd rather have a cheaper solution, if it would work.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rraisley View Post
The problem is, with or without glasses, the rear peep hole is VERY blurry. I find myself focusing on it as best I can, trying to center the front sight in it, then try to hold that position while trying to aim the whole thing at the target, which is a blur for me as well.
You focus on the FRONT sight, not the rear sight; Basic Sight Picture 101.

It is not possible (for 99 percent of shooters) to have the rear sight, front sight and target in focus at the same time, so quit trying.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:05 AM
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Rear sight should be blurry, front sight clear, target somewhat blurry. Do you wear glasses? If so I've heard of some shooters getting "reverse" bifocals for shooting.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:09 AM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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You focus on the FRONT sight, not the rear sight; Basic Sight Picture 101.
I know that. But in turn, I have to center the front sight in the rear sight's peep. It's so big (relatively) that it's hard to do. So I temporarily TRY to focus on the rear sight, try to center the front sight in it, hold that position, focus on the target, try to center it, and finally focus on the front sight to shoot.
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It is not possible (for 99 percent of shooters) to have the rear sight, front sight and target in focus at the same time, so quit trying.
Yeah, I know. And it's a lot easier for pistols. But with the rear sight as blurry as it is, I just feel a smaller hole would at least provide more accuracy. I now find my eye shifting all over the place just to see if I'm aiming anywhere near the target, or if my front sight is anywhere near the center of the rear sight.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:12 AM
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But with the rear sight as blurry as it is, I just feel a smaller hole would at least provide more accuracy. I now find my eye shifting all over the place just to see if I'm aiming anywhere near the target, or if my front sight is anywhere near the center of the rear sight.
Glue a piece of heavy paper over the hold and then poke a smaller hole in it. Or move the rear sight forward a couple of inches. There's no law that says it has to be at the very rear of the rail.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:22 AM
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I did the neon green front post paint job, it helps my brain "see" that something isn't lined up quicker, the contrast in color helped.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:26 AM
Beuford T. Rimfire Beuford T. Rimfire is offline
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A small piece of plastic tubing would work. You'd just have to experiment with size.

I thought the whole philosophy behind the ring and post style sights was to get a faster target aquisition based off the premise that your eye was naturally going to center up your target in the "ghosted" circle without you having to even think about this. With that in mind, all one should be really concerned with is the front post's location. The post/POA should theoretically gravitate to the center of the circle anyway.

Ring and post is not the same sighting idea as target-style peep sights. If a peep sight is what you are looking for, I'm sure someone sells a picatinny mounted version for AR's.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:48 AM
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Glue a piece of heavy paper over the hold and then poke a smaller hole in it.
Excellent idea. A small piece of thick plastic, with a hold drilled in it, would work, and I could start small and work up to what worked, without really damaging anything.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:52 AM
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I did the neon green front post paint job, it helps my brain "see" that something isn't lined up quicker, the contrast in color helped.
I use a bright yellow on mine - high contrast against a dark target.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Beuford T. Rimfire View Post
I thought the whole philosophy behind the ring and post style sights was to get a faster target aquisition based off the premise that your eye was naturally going to center up your target in the "ghosted" circle without you having to even think about this. With that in mind, all one should be really concerned with is the front post's location. The post/POA should theoretically gravitate to the center of the circle anyway.
You are absolutely correct.

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Ring and post is not the same sighting idea as target-style peep sights. If a peep sight is what you are looking for, I'm sure someone sells a picatinny mounted version for AR's.
You are correct again.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:05 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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I think part of the problem was that the last time I was shooting, and noticing this, was indoors, where the lighting is not that great. I was shooting on an orange target, with small green bullseye, and really can't see the bullseye at all without magnification. So I'm trying to center the peep hole on the target, and centering the front sight on both. Holding the gun and looking outside through the sights, the peep hole doesn't look so large, now.

Near as I can tell, the hole is about 0.067" in diameter, and the sight radius about 14.25". That means that if held ANYWHERE within the circular sight, it could result in hits within a 4.23" circle at 25 yards, or 17" circle at 100 yards. I shoot somewhat better than that, so obviously I'm somewhat centered in the circle.

I realize this type of sight is intended for rapid target acquisition, but I'm not in that business, being strictly a paper-puncher (as well as golf balls and other such inanimate targets). I guess I really need something more like a target sight. If they make a folding one that isn't /that/ expensive.

Or, I can just be happy with what I'm hitting (and not hitting), and use the red dot and scope when I want to shoot better.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:24 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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The SR Microsight looks like exactly what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure I'm ready to put out $140 for it, especially as it doesn't fold down. At first glance, it looks like just a smaller size hole (0.040"), but the writeup seems to indicate it has a lens in there as well. I can duplicate the 0.040" hold, but not the lens.

Still, this is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. If it were cheaper. And if it folded down..... oh well.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:27 PM
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Ring and post iron sights do not work well in low-light situations, nor with targets like that. High contrast (black on white) targets are best in those conditions.

Quote:
I realize this type of sight is intended for rapid target acquisition, but I'm not in that business, being strictly a paper-puncher (as well as golf balls and other such inanimate targets). I guess I really need something more like a target sight. If they make a folding one that isn't /that/ expensive.
I don't think you are going to find inexpensive target-grade sights that are rail-mountable. Lyman (and Weaver) has excellent match sights, but they are all receiver-mounted. They do have this little item that may be of help to you:

Lyman Products Your Primary Source for Reloading Equipment

Last edited by Majorlk; 09-14-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:29 PM
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I can duplicate the 0.040" hold,
Hole is the word you are looking for.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:41 PM
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They do have this little item that may be of help to you:

Lyman Products Your Primary Source for Reloading Equipment
I actually bought a Merit adjustable iris similar to that, for pistol shooting (darn old eyes). It helped a lot (outdoors, at least), but I had a hard time getting it to adjust to a good position (I seem to look out the very top of my shooting glasses), and it always fell off into the dirt and crud at least once per shooting session. I'm sure it would help outdoors (where there's lots of light) with my rifle as well, but I'd probably have the same problems with it.

And of course, it looks stupid, and ruins the cool factor I have when holding my 15-22.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:42 PM
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Hole is the word you are looking for.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:48 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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I actually bought a Merit adjustable iris similar to that, for pistol shooting (darn old eyes).
I just got the Merit out to give it a try. Man, I've already got a head ache and a crook in my neck from trying to line up the Merit, mounted on my glasses, with the peep hole, front sight and target, pointing it out the window. And it really reduces the amount of light. Not an option, here, I think.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:49 PM
Beuford T. Rimfire Beuford T. Rimfire is offline
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If you attempt to make a plastic insert for your sight aperture, you might concider purchasing an oxy-acetlyene torch tip cleaner.... Get the one that looks like a metal pen and has bunches of little drill-bit looking files in it that will insert into a chollet in the end of the pen. Then essentially you have a hand drill that works well on small holes especially in plastic and softer metals. Works great for precise oversizing of holes for custom fit projects. (These things are invaluable when working with ATV's, dirt bikes, etc. that have carb. jets - jet not big enough - just slightly file it out a bit.) Get a small pilot hole in your new aperture, then file it out incrementally until you get the size you prefer.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:56 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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If you attempt to make a plastic insert for your sight aperture, you might concider purchasing an oxy-acetlyene torch tip cleaner.
Good idea. I do have numbered drills down to 0.040", and another set to #80, along with a Dremel and pin-vise, so could use those, I think.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:33 PM
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i think the cheap/easy fix is coloring or replacing the front sight post with a fiber optic. the only thing is picking a color that contrasts with most targets you shoot.

if you make the rear sight hole too small, then it will take you longer to align the sights. this may work for slow range shooting but i dont think it helps you in the long run.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:36 PM
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i think the cheap/easy fix is coloring or replacing the front sight post with a fiber optic. the only thing is picking a color that contrasts with most targets you shoot.
Well, maybe, but I'm not having a problem seeing the front sight. I just need to make sure it's centered in the rear sight.
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if you make the rear sight hole too small, then it will take you longer to align the sights. this may work for slow range shooting but i dont think it helps you in the long run.
I'm not concerned with speed, here, nor rapid target acquisition. This is strictly a plinking and casual target gun.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:39 PM
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stick a small grape on the front sight post, it'll fill up your rear aperture. problem solved.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:51 PM
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Very interesting conversation here and good ideas for raisley.

I do have a question for those that have modified the front iron sites, what did you use for the color contrast on the front sites?

Would be interested in modifing my sites, would like to know the options.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:54 PM
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I just used my wife's acrylic craft paint. In my case I used a bright yellow. Lime green, orange and white all work well against dark targets.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:46 PM
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As a user of several stock colt a2's with factory irons at work, I will tell you that their large aperture (they have 2 sizes that you select) is about 2x the size of the MBUS hole, I do not like it either for anything other than bullseye shooting. The MBUS hole is about the same size as the a2 small aperture, which my training tells me should be used when distance approaches 50 yards.

I say you will be much happier with a larger hole in your rear sight. You will be amazed at how tight the group is with that huge sight hole.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:00 AM
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So one thing to consider, are you needing to cowitness your irons and red dot? I ask because if you find a rear sight that you like a lot, but it doesn't fold you could possibly try 45 degree offset mounts for them. You said it was strictly a paper-puncher so you might not like the adjusted shooting position, but just an idea.

And I was shooting with my girlfriends father and he just picked up a new colt AR and he was having the same problem so he found a rear sight that was on like a wheel that has 4 different size holes. The wheel is slightly angled forward so you only look through whichever hole is closest to you. I'll try to find out who makes it for you but I'm sure someone here knows what I'm talking about.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:06 AM
Dikinalaska Dikinalaska is offline
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Tactical Life BROWNELLS’ 360-degree rotating backup rear sight

Found it. His is just like this one but this one has 3 holes that are the same size, just different elevations. His has 4 different size holes
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:24 AM
Dikinalaska Dikinalaska is offline
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Ok, upon researching a little, I found they're called a rotary diopter drum sight. Hope this helps
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:32 AM
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Tactical Life BROWNELLS’ 360-degree rotating backup rear sight

Found it. His is just like this one but this one has 3 holes that are the same size, just different elevations. His has 4 different size holes
pretty cool idea.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:54 AM
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Thanks for the ideas. I do need the sight to fold down, as I don't want to remove it to use my PA red dot or scope. I don't think I'd be comfortable with the sights at 45 degrees, but I'm sure many get used to it. I've tried the larger hole on the MBUS, but definitely do better with the smaller one. I've seen the rotating size holes on my buddy's Colt; pretty neat, actually.

I may be overreacting a bit on the need to make the hole smaller, at least for outdoor use. Indoors, the light is such that I really have a tough time focusing so that anything is clear. Outdoors, I'm sure it will be much better. I'll have to do more comparing when outside, although may just take a piece of black tape or something, punch a small hole in it, just to see if that is really better. If so, I can make something a bit more permanent.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rraisley View Post
The SR Microsight looks like exactly what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure I'm ready to put out $140 for it, especially as it doesn't fold down. At first glance, it looks like just a smaller size hole (0.040"), but the writeup seems to indicate it has a lens in there as well. I can duplicate the 0.040" hold, but not the lens.

Still, this is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. If it were cheaper. And if it folded down..... oh well.
I called about the SR MicroSight, and it would, in fact, do exactly what I want. But it requires either a handle mount or other fixed standard rear AR sight mounting, and besides the cost of $140, I don't really want to lose the folding MBUS.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:50 AM
flyfishdave flyfishdave is offline
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Eyesight and other issues not withstanding, here are some options:

http://www.tech-sights.com/inserts.htm

I use these to customize my rear sight on my 10/22 using the Techsights rear sight. You will need to drill out the smaller Magpul BUIS rear aperture to 0.125" to afford a tight fit of the Techsight apeture.

But here's the rub:

1. While the insert will clear the large aperture blade (large aperture is 0.190"), I have no idea if the BUIS will fold down without smashing the Techsight insert.

2. The Techsight insert is molded to fit snuggly into the Techsight rear 0.125" aperture which is a little thicker than the standard AR blade aperture. Not sure how tight it will fit into the blade aperture of the Magpul, even with a 0.125" hole.

3. Since the Techsights aperture will pass through both blades, folding one and switching to the large aperture may not be a simple and quick flip...there may be some intereference.

The good news is that the Techsight aperture inserts are cheap so you can do some testing before committing the Magpul to the drill press.

The above is based on your desire to retain the folding feature of a rear sight. However, if you are willing to accept a fixed AR style rear BUIS option, you have the option of purchasing after-market A2 apertures:

NM Rear Aperture (.030/.040 Aperture)

The picture in the above link is a standard small/large aperture, not the 0.030"/0.040"

This one has both a 0.030" and 0.040" aperture. I believe they also have a 0.046"/0.200" if you want to have a larger aperture for reduced light shooting. Note, most of these are NOT same plane apertures.

If you choose a red dot mount that properly positions the optic for a lower 1/3 co-witness, shooting with fixed BUIS really is not too difficult. You can raise your head slightly off the stock in an upright position, and the sights will move away from the view while you place the dot over your target.

Note, these A2 (L-shaped) apertures will NOT work with most/all folding BUIS as they will not allow the sights to fold closed properly, or simply not fit at all. It may work on the Troy BUIS but may require some grinding.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by flyfishdave; 09-16-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:23 PM
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Have you thought about changing the ring on the rear sight to a night sight?

If u get the night sight rear rings and the night sight post or just paint the post, your sights will line up like the 3-dot pistol sights. Just a thought.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:32 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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Thanks, flyfishdave. Some very good information for me there. The current large hole is about 0.189", so to use the 0.125" diameter, I'd have to drill it out and insert a bushing or piece of tubing. I do like the idea of being able to easily change the hole size with inserts. The NM Rear Aperture looks good too, if it can just replace the the existing portion (that is, if it threads to the current windage adjustment screw. I can call and find out.

No problem with the co-witnessing, but I need the rear sight to fold down to clear my scope when mounted.

Again, very good ideas. I'm going to investigate these further.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:33 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost_Soldier View Post
Have you thought about changing the ring on the rear sight to a night sight?

If u get the night sight rear rings and the night sight post or just paint the post, your sights will line up like the 3-dot pistol sights. Just a thought.
I wouldn't mind that at all, but I would still want the rear sight to fold down. Not sure if those would.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rraisley View Post
I wouldn't mind that at all, but I would still want the rear sight to fold down. Not sure if those would.
You should be able to just replace the ring on the magpul sights.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:52 PM
flyfishdave flyfishdave is offline
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The L-shape of the NM rear aperture (if you're able to install it) may not allow the rear sight to fold down. You may have a better chance if you cut off one of the apertures but this will leave you with only one option. This also assume the thread pitch of the windage screw is compatible with the aperture.

The Troy folding BUIS actually uses a double aperture that is almost L-shaped (greater than 90' angle) and HiViz does make a CSAT aperture to fit the Troy, but the CSAT uses a same plane design with a pistol sight notch for close contact engagement. There's no small 0.030" like aperture.

Your other option would be to consider the Larue fixed read BUIS with the larue QD lever, with the 0.030/0.040 NM aperture. The repeatability of the Larue QD levers are excellent and you can take them on or off as needed. Replacing the stock aperture is just a matter of punching out a small pin that holds the windage knob to the screw.

If you want to go the route of the TechSights inserts, I would consider drilling into the smaller aperture to get the 0.125" diameter hole. This would be much easier than fitting a bushing or filling the hole with devcon or some similar material.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rraisley View Post
Thanks, flyfishdave. Some very good information for me there. The current large hole is about 0.189", so to use the 0.125" diameter, I'd have to drill it out and insert a bushing or piece of tubing. I do like the idea of being able to easily change the hole size with inserts. The NM Rear Aperture looks good too, if it can just replace the the existing portion (that is, if it threads to the current windage adjustment screw. I can call and find out.

No problem with the co-witnessing, but I need the rear sight to fold down to clear my scope when mounted.

Again, very good ideas. I'm going to investigate these further.

Last edited by flyfishdave; 09-16-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:53 PM
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what about swapping to a FO front sight?

Sightlink Fiber Optic Front Post - Quick review...

having a sharper dot seems like it would be easier to center in the ring. even if you do go to a smaller rear sight, having something specific to focus on up front should improve accuracy as well.
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:57 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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what about swapping to a FO front sight?
I think that would be a good idea, but I don't think it will cure my main problem, which is a very out-of-focus, large rear sight circle, hard to center the front sight in accurately. But once (if) I solve the rear sight problem, I may well look into a fiber optic addition to the front sight.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:13 PM
scooternut scooternut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooternut View Post
As a user of several stock colt a2's with factory irons at work, I will tell you that their large aperture (they have 2 sizes that you select) is about 2x the size of the MBUS hole, I do not like it either for anything other than bullseye shooting. The MBUS hole is about the same size as the a2 small aperture, which my training tells me should be used when distance approaches 50 yards.

I say you will be much happier with a larger hole in your rear sight. You will be amazed at how tight the group is with that huge sight hole.
Oops, dumbest first post in the history of net forums. I have only owned my MOE 1 week but yet failed to notice that there IS a second larger aperture on the rear MBUS sight. I like them better now. Sorry guys
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:19 AM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooternut View Post
Oops, dumbest first post in the history of net forums. I have only owned my MOE 1 week but yet failed to notice that there IS a second larger aperture on the rear MBUS sight. I like them better now. Sorry guys
That's the way it usually is. Some are looking for larger apertures, some, like me, are looking for smaller ones....
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:28 AM
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I cut off the tab with the smaller aperture.

Because most of my shooting is close and fast I don't need the small hole. So I Dremelled it off. I hated the way it defaulted to the smaller hole. If I need a BUIS I need it NOW. If I have the time to mess around switching aperture sizes, that's when I'll need the smaller hole.

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Old 09-17-2012, 07:34 PM
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so have you tried something as simple as electrical tape with a hole punched? im curious as to the results. quit keeping us in suspense and try it!
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:33 PM
rraisley rraisley is offline
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so have you tried something as simple as electrical tape with a hole punched? im curious as to the results. quit keeping us in suspense and try it!
I intend to start off with something like that. But the day after I posted, my father-in-law died, and I doubt I'll be getting to the range for a little while.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:39 PM
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My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family!
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:41 PM
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ah sorry to hear man.

well we're always here to do some "bench racing" with you, i find its a lot cheaper than actually going to the range.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:07 PM
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My condolences to you and your family.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:34 AM
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raisely,

Sorry to hear about your loss. your family will be in my thoughts and prayers. Take care of the family.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:20 AM
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Aw jeez. Heartfelt condolences.

KBK
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:47 AM
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You may be looking at this all wrong....Forget the pun.....To solve your problem as first discribed you need to get rid of the post front sight.....You need a round aperature front sight....The best would be to have several different size front aperature holes for various size targets or distances......And the same would be nice for the rear, but you can to some extent ,as you know, make the rear larger or smaller by moving your eye closer or further from the aperature hole.....The key here is very simple you need a rear aperature hole, which you have, actually a choise of two sizes.....Next buy a round hole aperature front sight to replace the post sight..... get several sizes and they are available and screw right in.....Think the sight set up system as centering a hole on a hole with the target in the middle....your eye will easily do the centering work automatically...Your only job is to pick the right size hole for best clarity and pulling the trigger.....Stop trying to deal with a post front sight...,.your eye can not and will not self center on a post front sight without fighting with itself to try and focus back and forth on three things at the same time......This is exactly what you discribed in your original posts.....This will help a great deal with shooting irons........best regards plum
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