9 to 12 pellets of 00 Buck (about the size as a 9mm bullet and traveling at about the same speed) hitting someone simultaneously seems more likely to stop someone than any pistol caliber.

And you just gave away your position to the intruder AND informed them that you are armed thus taking away any element of surprise you may have had. Now your criminal is alerted to the idea that his safety is definately at stake and your chances of survival decreased. IMO.

If an intruder is wearing heavy clothing ANYTHING will be slowed down considerably, especially shotgun pellets.

Do what you want, I can put five rounds from my .40S&W on target faster that you can get the second round off from a pump shotgun, and that's over 800 grains - somewhat more than your 00 buck.

That said, all this has been hashed out at least a half dozen times on this forum already and NOTHING new is being said.

Uhm... No you can't.

Never head into a self defense situation with and empty chamber. The scare is pointing a massive bore at your assailant not making noise. Just how i was taught but to each their own.

Maybe you can't but I can. Done it several times in training. Five rounds in under 1.5 seconds. The average shooter can't recover from 12 gauge recoil that fast.

Nrrrrrrrr!!!! CAT FIGHT!!!!

Everyone's said their peace about what stops a criminal. Let's not make it personal!

(One thing I've learned over the years - NEVER tell a man from a town you can't pronounce what he CAN or CANNOT do.)

I will just say this. A 15-22 for home defense will still be more reliable than these home items.

ROFL @BP_Z28

Just to make my point again, these are #1 12 guage 15 pellet Federal loads.
This is a 7 yard target :

All the shot and the wad went in the same hole at 7 yards. This is the often talked about but probably mythical "typical engagement distance" in a self defense shooting.

This is the 25 yard shot with the same ammunition :

Pretty much all the pellets went in the same area, with the wad - the un-aerodynamic plastic petals that are not accurate at all - hitting the same target, albeit off to the left.

This is the same load with a different shotgun, on a different day, at 30 yards :

The wad is now missing and has veered off course. All 15 holes are there.

Explain to me again how you don't need to aim with a shotgun or how you can hit multiple people with them inside a house.....

12ga 870 express loaded with 00 buck is by far the best home defense/short range weapon. As long as there is enough room to level the barrel and point it at the target.

And it is cheaper to own than the S&W MP15-22.

Plenty of times in competition I have accurately fired and hit three dinner plate sized targets with a 12 ga autoloder in 1.7s. So I guarantee I can do more damage to a perp(s) than even myself with a handgun. I have done 6 in less than 1.5s with either a handgun or an AR. And if you mean ordinary field shotguns, then yes they are not that appropriate due to physical size, but if that is all you have fine.
I can teach someone to be self defense effective with a shotgun in a very short period of time, like 1 training session. Seldom have I found someone who could do that with a pistol the first time, but a few have. ARs are a whole different ballgame.

While it may be a call for "correct tool for the job" a weapon system that requires two hands to operate and a need to possibly collect and protect children makes a pump shotgun a no go in my opinion.

A pistol is better and a rifle is much better, depending on the rifle.

There is always the possibility of you being injured in the attack which leaves unable to operate a two handed weapon system.

KBK

Don't get me wrong, I love shotguns. I'm really good with them. I enjoy shooting them in 3 gun matches. I've often competed with pumps and scored right up alongside semi auto shotguns. I just feel they are far from as good as many people say they are for self defense.

From what I understand, in some states, you could go to jail for this. Why? Because the intention should be to shoot to kill, not to maim. If you only intended to hurt or maim, then the threat of death upon you was not there and thus, you should not have fired just to stop and hurt. That method could backfire on you, no pun intended. If your going to pull the trigger, pull and aim with the intentions of killing, not hurting. You would have a hard time explaining your such a ****** shot you hit him in the nuts.

L'n'L yeah.

You are shooting to stop the attack. How the attack stops is not up to you. You may scare them away, you may wound them beyond the capability to press their attack or you may kill them. The thing is you are using a lethal level of force when you shoot them, no matter where it is on their body.Their death must be an acceptable outcome of the shooting.

But the idea behind shooting people in the groin is because the hip is theoretically a large weight bearing structure. Break it and you will remove their ability to press the attack. Some people say this is a quicker and surer way than hitting their thorax. This is not always true.

Bone doesn't always react the same way. One guy might go down like a 90 year old granny falling down stairs, another might soak up the damage and move on.

Shooting someone in the hip does not always render them unable to walk which is the idea behind it. It is also to cover up bad shooting. You'll often hear it thrown in with the "spread the damage around" crowd. This also isn't optimal. You should be able to hit what you are shooting at.

Now I'm not talking about overlapping holes at 500m, but a fist sized or smaller group at 10m rapid fire is what you should be looking for. "Spreading the damage" does not work.

Hip shots do not always work.

Center mass followed by a "failure drill" if those aren't working.

KBK

Agreed! I have a Taurus Judge w/ 3" PDX1 .410 loads ready for the dummy who decides to break in while im home. The Ruger is my CCW. What scares me though is if someone was to break in, find my gun, and still be in the house when I get home...

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You buy a SAFE and LOCK IT UP.

Isn't that hard really.

And seriously? a .410? Why would you use the .22 version of a shotgun? A .45 Colt round would be of more use.

A gun in a safe is of little or no use if you are surprised at night in bed.
A .410 round can have the equivalent of three (3) .38 bullets, and is considered by some to be the ideal home defense round. Enough damage to really matter, enough spread to allow for some inaccuracy, and 12 more if the first 3 aren't enough.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that comment about the safe was a reply to "What scares me though is if someone was to break in, find my gun, and still be in the house when I get home... "

A safe is a MUST if you have small children running around the house like me. My daughter never has access to ANY of my firearms at any time. During the day my carry firearm is on my hip and its in the safe at night.


Back on topic, I would not use a .22lr firearm for HD under any circumstances.

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I'll add this. The humble. 22LR has killed many people and critters. Don't underestimate its' killing power. While not my preferred firearm I don't discount it's capability either.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

If they get by the alarm and the dogs, the Glock with a tactical light and laser is my preference. That is a good point about the stock giving you a little more accuracy after having been awoken from a sleep, but a pistol is easier to hide out of sight and then grab when necessary. And if you can't hit your mark with 12 shots, I don't know.

Talk about beating a dead horse.

FACT: The M&P 15-22 is better for home defense than a baseball bat or knife.

FACT: It is likely that even if you do a mag dump into the perp he may still have enough fight in him to inflict lethal injuries on you before he bleeds out from his injuries.

FACT: It is very unlikely you will get lucky enough to make a head shot, spinal shot, or jugular shot. Witch is the only places a .22lr will have a chance at stopping the attack instantly.

FACT: All other shots will just cause tissue damage and not have the penetration nor have enough kinetic energy to shock and incapacitate any of the vital organs to STOP the perp.

In short. if it is all you have then fine, use it for your defense. If you have any other firearm in a larger caliber you would be foolish not to use that instead of the .22lr.

No, I just feel that just as a carry gun needs to be quickly available, so does a home defense gun. And a gun locked in a safe at the other end of the house isn't going to do me much good under most circumstances. In my case, I have an M&P9C in a mattress holster, instantly accessible to me, but normally covered, my carry gun (Kahr PM9) is either on me or beside my wallet in my armoire, my Ruger LCR is always in the glove compartment of my car. My other guns are not kept loaded or locked away, but each has a loaded magazine next to it, should I need it and have the time. If someone breaks into my house and steals my guns, then I'll be unhappy, as I would be about anything stolen, and report it immediately to the police. Yes, I guess there's a chance a thief will still be in my home and use my guns against me, should he find them, but I'll take that chance, as I think it's rather small.

Congratulations on winning the argument by going straight to personal insults. You are a master debater.

Yeah, what cryptiq said.
Put it in the safe and it will be less of a problem. If you are NOT AT HOME, then your HOME DEFENSE GUN is a little useless isn't it? And if it IS just lying around and not properly secured what you are worried about can happen. So why not, oh I don't know, take steps to prevent it happening. If you have your CCW then you can drop it in the safe after checking your house and retrieve your home defense gun. It also doesn't need to be a big safe elsewhere in the house. You get some pretty good quality rapid access safes that you can secure wherever you want your HD gun to live.

Putting it on your bedside table at night will remove the needing to get it and the chance of someone getting it before you do.

As for the .410 being the "ultimate house round", uuuh No. Not really.

Look at the pictures I posted above when 15 rounds of .36 out of a 12 gauge didn't spread to "make up for inaccuracies". The rifled barrel on a pistol will help spread the shot around I will admit, but it will still not be enough to make it a useful room broom. On the flip side to that though, it can cause you to miss your target with some of the rounds and that is not a good thing. What will those pellets hit? And if they missed they did not help in stopping the attack did they?

Yes this is a discussion about the .22 LR as a defense round, and most people have said it isn't a good option. Read the thread. While the .22 can kill people and has, relying on it is not the smartest thing in the world if you have any other option. Suggesting the .410, the smallest commercially available shotgun cartridge and the shotgun equivalent of a .22 simply because we are discussing the .22 as your argument is silly.

The soft round shot of the shotgun cartridges is not the best performing bullets in the world. Yes they can also kill, yes Wild Bill dropped a guy at 75 yards with a single .36 round ball to the chest. They still don't have the same potential as a well designed hollow point, nor will the rounds reach the stated velocity out of a short barrel, with a cylinder gap thrown in.

The excessive recoil in a handgun is not worth it IMHO. Get a better designed gun, practice with it. Get good at it and don't try use "trick" gear to compensate for not training.

KBK

Personally for my HD gun I use my daily CCW. It is a Glock 26. Also not what I'd consider the best gun for the job, but it is what I have available. -local laws and stuff-. It simply sits on my hip every waking hour, except when I'm in the shower. If it is not on my hip it is secured in a lock box on my bedside table. There is no problem with someone finding it because it is right at hand, or under my direct control all the time.

The problem of them finding my other guns is reduced because they are locked in a big assed safe. Yes they will be able to find them, getting hold of them will require the use of big power tools and lots of time. (or explosives).

KBK

While not the most scientific these guys do some interesting stuff:
The Box of Truth and the 3" Judge.
TBOT and the 2.5" Judge

Incidentally I have not Chrono'd a .410, but looking at 60 grain rounds at <1000fps is closer to .22's levels of energy than .38's. Just saying.

KBK

Iam no professional shooter by any means but thanks to my local range allowing me to practice rapid fire and reload drills i feel i can proficiently put 50 rounds (coupled mags) downrage sumwhat accurately and quickly. Is this the best home defense caliber no not by anymeans will 50 rounds of cci stingers put down an intruder i think so. Unfortunatly i cant afford a higher caliber of weapon right now so this will be my option but i sleep at night knowing this cuz i have power by numbers.

Just curious, how many of you have ever had to use your weapon against an intruder?

Anybody actually SEE a wound from birdshot? It is gruesome. At indoor distance, a blast of 12 gauge birdshot will do the job. It will do MUCH more than "make him mad". On internet forums, where everybody is Jack Bauer, people think they're going to cooly dispatch the intruder. reality is different. Odds are very high you miss the target at least once. where'd that bullet go again? Into my son's room? Hope it missed him! You OWN every round you fire.

Personally, I would not use a .22 for home defense, but a 12 gauge with birdshot? I would (and do).

Wow this discussion is going on longer than topics about red dots lol. Interesting nonetheless. Solid points on everyones behalf.

While many of you make a variety of good points I think the most important point being made is the willingness to protect and defend one's home and family.
As long as you are familiar with and practice with any gun is going to be much better than a gun seldom used and unfamiliar. That gives a false sense of security and leads to problems.

I've never shot a human and would be happy to end my life without ever having the need to shoot a human but there are many people that have in a self defense situation that have had little practice and probably hoped to never have the need. I suspect it is a very focused moment in time and little thought besides surviving and/or protecting is going on in the persons mind.

35 years ago I lived in a townhouse and thought my High Standerd target pistol was a good Home defense choice. I was wrong then and you would be wrong now.
Even a 22lr can penetrate a wall.
So my choice would be your 40S&W pistol.
If no children are in the home I like a revolver, I know my wife can use it.
Currently I have my 25-13 45 colt with 4" barrel and crimson trace laser grips next to my bed.
When I had kids at home I kept a 1911, various ones at times, in this same location.
I also keep a 12 gauge winchester 1300 slug gun close.
And shoot center of mass, you are not trying to wound the thug in your home.

Using a .22 rimfire for home defense is an incredibly bad idea.

5.56 (that you already own) with frangible ammo as was previously suggested, would be optimum.

So could you just say you were in fact in fear of your life and simply "missed"?

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This is my new motto. I live in a town called Soldotna on the Kenai Peninsula. I would think they are self-explanatory but I hear people mispronounce both on a regular basis

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-Dik

Unless you have been in a REAL life or death situation and fired a weapon (and even if you have), you have NO idea what your hit ratio will be. Say you fire 3 and hit 2. Where'd that other one go?

Your choice of a HD round is yours to make, but don't sit here and say "I won't miss". Odds are VERY HIGH that you WILL MISS.

Nothing on the planet is better than a shotgun! Anything you have is better than nothing.

Rather than wasting time debating the merits of the .22, on this thread, most of us would be much better served contacting our Congress persons, encouraging them to protect our 2nd Amend Rights to keep what firearms we have, period........best regards Plum

Very true. Otherwise, like in England, a single-shot .22 may be our only choice of home defense weapon.

Go with the 40 pistol for home defense. The 15/22 ain't exactly a ballistic wonder and its reliability (mine, at least) isn't up to defensive firearm standards.

Ive seen so many of these threads over the years its ridiculous.

I've seen a bunch of these threads, and I've only been here since May! But apparently others have not, because the question keeps coming up.

By "frangible" I was talking about " Reduced Ricochet, Limited Penetration" ammunition.

KBK

Yup, more than once. If the person is wearing heavy clothing, it's even money that the perp will keep coming if you shoot him more than 25 feet away. 00 Buck is a different matter.

I've seen bird shot used on birds, 4 legged creatures and 2 legged creatures. There is a reason it is called BIRD shot. That's about the size of animal it should be used on.

I have also seen it kill, I will admit that. I also would not like to be shot with it at any closer ranges than I have been.

It would not be my first choice for defense. Nothing smaller than #1.

KBK

my thoughts as well glock 30sf with 11 rounds of big boyz....but next to it is an M&P 15-22.......so its all good...lol

i'm glad this didn't turn into a 9mm vs all the other calibers! with all the new Hornady Critical Duty rounds being used there is some vast information on it's clothing penetration prior to expansion in tissue to validate it as my primary defensive round in all my CCW and HD guns.

Getting to your weapon is another thing. if you are in your recliner, and i know a lot of folks have their SD gun on until bed, but if you don't where and how fast can you get to your gun when you leave your front door open with just the screen door to get some air in the house? i always have at least one handgun in every room in the house, plus on that stays with me while in the house. most home invasions are between 1400 and 1900 because people come home from work and don't lock the door behind them.

as for actually seeing the effects of one of my shots (21 years Army retired) i have seen my breacher shoot an enemy with a breaching round and just about took his entire head off at about 5 yards. Bird shot will make a devastating wound. #4 buck, 3" has 41 pellets that pattern like a softball out of my coyote SG patterned at 30 yards.

as for AR rounds, we had to switch rounds while in Somalia and Rwanda due to the green tip penetrator round that was issued would go right through a skinny and keep on going and they would keep on coming. the 55 gr frang was much better at first or second round stops.

IMHO i'm with the one handed weapon crowd since some of my family live on the other side of the house with the door in the middle of the house. i would not want penetration into those back bedrooms where grandkids stay over.
so i use a SUPPRESSED 9mm with an AR pretty close by. Shooting a gun in the house will ring your bell big time, although an 'incident' will be over long before i can get to the AR, this isn't "Mr and Mrs Smith" home invasion type gunfights are over in seconds, usually.

But...if the door broke open middle of night and all i had was one of my 15-22's for HD, giving that no one was home but me, getting down on the backside of the bed with the 15-22 Eotech equipped rifle aimed at the door, i could effectively put the majority of a mag into the guys head neck upper torso no problem. 10 rounds to the head=dead.

Just my .03 cents

you have to understand the difference between "incapacitation" & "lethality". a pocket knife wound could prove lethal- but what is the rate of "incapacitation" with that stab wound, at the scene itself? very little if you ask me.

while our rifle itself might be great quality, and offer the same ergonomics and features found on military style rifles, the .22lr round itself has very little incapacitation. i think the image of our rifle proves to be greater incapacitation than the .22lr round itself.

mind you a lead pea, flying at 800+mph, is not something id want to be exposed too - but then again i am not out robbing houses. its not uncommon for criminals to use bullet resistant vests/phone books wrapped around their torso, etc.

(take this with a grain of salt) dont forget, the weapon you use during a shooting, will be taken by the police for the investigation. it will be photographed and possibly presented to a jury in a trial. you know how society feels about AR15's, those "evil black assault rifles".
do you really want to be painted in a way that makes the jury feel you are "hell bent on causing as much carnage as possible" to a poor little 17yr old(sarcasm) who was drunk and mistakened your house for his friends house; when he walked through the front door?

if you want my opinion: get yourself a comfortable semi-auto handgun, that accepts a quality flashlight, that can carry 10+rounds, (glock19's have 15rounds!) and get good training- LOTS OF IT! practice in your home from every room towards a potential threat, from any possible means of entry. BUT have every & any AR15 style rifle available if things really go far south.

I haven't read the above responses to the OP, but let me just say, ANY gun is better than no gun. In this case the M&P 15 .22 is an excellent choice. As with any gun used for such purposes the optimum word is PRACTICE. And more specifically practice head shots. Multiple hits int the head from a .22 generally will end the threat. Just remember no caliber is 100%.

You happen to remember what Hinckley did when he shot at Reagan? You remember the images of the folks incapacitated on the ground & near death? You remember no one got shot more than once?

This was with a low velocity 22lr revolver. Of course bigger is better, but still a few of those folks might disagree with you.

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