This is one of the most important posts here. From my police classes (in PA), if you truly feel your life is being threatened, you're going to have a hard time justifying that ankle shot to the DA. Check with your state's state police.

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Save time, see it my way. LP

with such a small round, shot placement is key. i dont know where reagon was shot exactly, so i cant comment further.

but in reality, where were they gonna run too? reagan had his whole staff near him. he knew that he was safer simply dropping to the ground and being covered up by his bullet-sponges.

people forget that, they dont own guns to KILL bad people. they own guns to STOP bad people from doing whatever it is, that the bad people are doing. lethality is simply a bi-product of the wound that is created. so you want to find a happy medium between good incapacitation & coil/capacity/size/etc.

After getting a 15-22p... i decided this would be a GREAT Home def weapon

I combined 2 mags together... this gives me 50rds..

Add a light to it... and it is Dialed... Small and easy to maneuver... No Sight even needed.....

The 15-22 too me seems a little cumbersome to me... My current HD is my XDM9 with a Tac Light on it

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--Stav--

History ain't a bad thing, so you might want to read up on the assassination attempt.

Six 22lr bullets fired from the revolver. The 1st one hit James Brady in the head & dropped him. The Brady Act, obviously named for him, is where your background checks come from on firearm purchases. 2nd shot hit a police officer in the back of the neck. 3rd bullet missed & 4th hit a secret service agent in the stomach, dropping him, as he attempted to shield the President. The 5th & 6th hit the limo, with a ricochet of the 6th that hit Regan in the armpit... which almost killed him.

I'm not arguing which round or gun is better. Just saying any projectile flying at over 1000 feet per second can easily incapacitate.

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FIDELITAS ET FORTITUDO

The video starts off with a hand gun, but finishes off with a 10/22.

.22 LR Handgun for Self Defense? CCI Stinger Ammo Test - YouTube

I would never trust my life or the lives of my loved ones to a rimfire cartridge.
Your priorities may be different.

This horse is dead.

Would just like to point out... Were not limited to single shot .22

Any mag size in any type of .22 rifle. 22 Long barreled pistol is the same, shotgun max is 8 (but perhaps no box mags, I havent really checked), centrefire calibre is also any size mag... But were limited to straight pull or bolt action... No semi's.

The fastest centrefire we would have is maybe the straightpull or underlever. But the underleaver is limited to pistol calibres... largest being the .44 magnum.

That said... Were allowed an 8 shot, semi 12 gauge... So... Theres that...

"A 5.56 AR will overpenetrate more than handguns or shotguns"

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

click on the above link and read the test. While it is ammunition dependent, a 5.56/.223 can have excellent terminal effects AND limit overpenetration. A 5.56 is much more capable of doing damage to a person and quickly stopping a threat than a handgun and MUCH more capable than a .22LR...view the below...
AR-15 Tribute - YouTube
45ACP Speer 200gr +P Gold Dot impacting ballistic gelatin (slow motion) - YouTube
22LR CCI 40gr Velocitor PLHP impacting ballistic gelatin (42,000 frames/sec)! - YouTube

The faster/lighter .223/5.56 projectiles(especially ballistic tipped) break up pretty readily when going through walls and quickly shed energy. Handgun/shotgun projectiles aren't going fast enough to break apart and largely truck through MANY walls in a relatively straight line, with enough momentum on the other side to still adequately penetrate a person. In fact, most current handgun defensive loadings are made specifically so they will penetrate the fbi minimum 12" w/ expansion AFTER going through a wall.

Summary....WIN 5.56 in an AR


"Use birdshot for defense in a shotgun"
watch this....
Friends don't let Friends shoot Birdshot for HD - YouTube

and this...
Shotshell comparison Slow Motion - YouTube

...realize that 4-6" of penetration makes one nasty, but shallow wound. Most structures that cause a person to physiologically stop being a threat(bone structure, CNS, high-flow vasculature), are pretty deep towards the back of your thoracic cavity. In the case of the CNS, most of it is behind a large amount of bone structure. Your projectile has to make it through clothes, skin, adipose tissue, muscle, fluid, and then bone to reach really anything important(keep in mind most of your thoracic cavity is shielded by your rib-cage).

You're going to want a projectile that can penetrate somewhere close to 12" to get to that important stuff. In the case of a shotgun, it's going to be a #4 buckshot load or larger. I personally favor #1 buck as the best load for defense for a 12ga.

".22 is useless for defense"

Well no...it's been killing people for a long time now and can be quite effective. If it's between a .22 and fighting at close range with a handheld cutting or striking weapon, the .22 wins. Especially in a rifle, .22 can create a good bit of trauma and when combined with good shot placement, it can kill.

The issue is that compared to other cartridges, it creates MUCH less trauma. When you've got a .22 load just over 100 ftlb's of energy to do work compared to a 9/40/45 with around 400 ftlbs...it's easy to see the centerfire loads have the ability to create much more damage. bump up to .223 with 1,200 ftlbs or so and it's no contest which one is mo'betta. That extra energy is used to crush/tear/displace tissue that the .22 wont. It means you're going to do more damage and potentially stop the threat faster with similar shot placement.

In defense speed & shot placement is the name of the game. with similar shot placement, it will take a person much longer to stop being a threat with a .22 wound. It will likely also require many more shots sent their way to do enough damage to stop them. if I jump into hypothetical world right quick, a .223 may stop a threat with 2 hits on center mass. Before they can get to you, a .22 may require 10+ hits. Assume you're getting a pretty good rate of 15% shots on target...you're sending many more shots into the walls behind the threat with the .22 than you are with the much more effective .223. ....but a .22 still can stop a threat, it's just not as good as a centerfire loading for handguns or carbines.

People that would use .22's are ones that physically cannot handle larger calibers. Some senior citizens or people with grip-strength issues may be best served by a m&p22 pistol, because the slide is easy to manipulate and the recoil is extremely easy to control. If you're able to handle a more powerful cartridge, you should.

There's a big difference between being on the line (a fairly well controlled situation and hopefully not lethal for you) and being in an unfamiliar dark house at night and hearing the sound of a shell being racked into the chamber of a pump shotgun. So you're in the dark, trying not to trip over stuff you can't see, and all of a sudden you hear that sound but you can't see where it's coming from. Plus, in the dark, sounds can seem like they're coming from one place when they're really coming from another.

Now...you might not pee in your pants, but it's gonna startle you and make you hesitate, and maybe start thinking breaking into this house wasn't such a great idea after all.

My first line of defense? A 1951 Winchester Model 12 factory riot gun with a 20-inch cylinder bore barrel. After 62 years, the action is still smooth as silk. I've run about 150 rounds through it in the past month...a mixture of #4 Buckshot and 00-Buckshot...with not one jam or malfunction. And although I'm getting on up in years, myself, I don't have any problem getting it back on target while pumping it. Oh, and did I mention you can slam fire it?

Actually, my real first line of defense is the Rottweiler whose photograph I use as my icon on this forum. I have two of them, and they sleep where I sleep. No one is going to be near my house...day or night...without them letting me know about it. So by the time some punk's finished trying to kick my door in or come in through a window, I already know about it, and Old Faithful and I will be waiting.

^This.

Just because the 15-22 looks assault rifleish doesn't change that it is firing a .22lr. Would we have this same conversation about a Mossberg 702 Plinkster? They also have factory 25rd mags, same as a 10/22. Just because it looks different doesn't make the 15-22 any better of a self defense/home defense weapon. (with the one caveat that it's better than no gun, or if the recoil of a larger caliber makes it so that you simply can't be accurate with anything else). Don't make the issue of a 15-22 for HD about how the gun looks.

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686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

The main problem with the "sound of my kachunkachunk as a deterrent" plan is that it projects reason and logic on to the potentially unreasonable threat. It also assumes the threat will leave instead of engaging in a fight with you.

When someone enters your home while you are there, it should be understood that they are likely there for the sole purpose of hurting you or your family. Otherwise, why not just wait till you leave and come in then? Because of this, a home invasion is a force-on-force scenario. In such a scenario, you don't want to fight fair and you don't want to give your opponent any advantage over you. Do you think the home invader will shout out, "hey guys, I'm over here and I have a gun"? Probably not. He/she wouldn't likely want to give away his position and capability to fight. When you rack your shotgun at a threat, you're letting them know where you are and what you're armed with.

Will most people probably high-tail it out of there? Yeah. Again though, the threat is likely there to harm you, may not be rational, and may also be armed heavily. It is best to barricade yourself and your family behind a strong door at the position of advantage in the room, have 911 on the phone, and wait with your gun aimed at the entry to the room. If the threat breaks in, and after you've identified them as a threat, you've got the advantage over the threat and can respond with force.

The threat has to essentially clear your whole house...probably by themself or with a team that's not very good at room clearing. Their disadvantages are that they don't know where you are and they don't know the layout of your house. When they enter a room, they have to scan it in it's entirety to find where you are before finding you and attacking. Their only real advantage is knowing when they will enter a room.

You have the advantage if you stay put because you know the lay of the room and can position yourself to your benefit, and you know exactly where the threat is coming from(the door). Your disadvantage is you don't know when the threat is coming. If you're barricaded behind the locked door, the act of breaking in will let you know when the attack is coming and give you the last advantage you need to beat them easily. If you're racking your shotgun and yelling at them, you've given them the "where" piece to their puzzle. You've also given them the expectation that you're armed and have narrowed their choices in how they will respond to you ahead of time.

Of course the worst thing you can do, which will give up all your advantages except your knowledge of your home's layout is to go room-clearing to bring the fight to them. In that case, you're attempting to engage in a firefight with an unknown number of threats with an unknown fighting capability, hoping to find them and stop them before they can find you and stop you. You also limit your ability to plan where your shots go in a 3-d range with permeable walls when you have to respond to a threat from any direction.



if that's not good enough, i guess i could use a cutesy bumper-sticker saying like the "pump mahhh shawtgunn" crowd...

While the racking of a slide is a pretty good auditory deterrent, the *BOOM* is much more effective.


and here's our first line of defense. Stoney's a very well-trained guard dog.
guard dog stoney.jpg

ZOMBIE THREAD................ seriously, with all the information on this site the resurrector found a .22 as home defense thread to bring back?

I quote that web page all the time, but just found that they have a followup test with different results. Very confusing. I have a LE6920 with Ranger 64 grain soft points in the bedroom.

Drywall Penetration Test 2

A guy by the name of Greg Ellifritz (impressive resume with firearms and instructor) collected data on self defense shootings rather than in a lab with gelatin. He measured incapacitation as the BG immediately stopping aggression after being shot.

A mix of .22LR, Long and Short came in around a 70% incapacitation rate with a little under two shots average.

Most of the centerfire pistol came in around 85% +/- with an average over 2 shots.

A lot of the above are psychological stops rather than a shot to the CNS or trauma making physical movement impossible.

Google -An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power. If nothing else, it's an interesting read.

Cool, thanks for the link. There's also the type of ammunition to consider. The lighter/faster polymer-tipped rounds seem to more readily shed energy in drywall...of course the tradeoff is a shallower wound cavity...much like 12 ga loads.

.223 NTX, V-Max and FMJ Home Defense and Gel Test - YouTube

I have a 15-22 in the corner of my bedroom for home defense. I'm not worried about an intruder, just make sure you have reliable ammo such as CCI and always remember that if someone is worth shooting once, then they're worth shooting multiple times.

I know some people have said they wouldn't use a 22LR however they were comfortable with a shotgun with birdshot. This is contradicting and a double standard. Your chances of hitting a vital is slim to none with birdshot. Please google image shotgun birdshot wounds.

If I were to use a shotgun for home defense it would definitely be loaded with buckshot. I don't know about you but I can put 5 rounds of 22 in a tight group within 1.5 - 2 seconds. This would be equivalent to being shot in the chest with 1 round of buckshot in the same amount of time. Very similar bullet size and penetration. Actually 22LR hollowpoints like mini mags would be an overall larger diameter and possibly deeper penetration in which both gives you higher chance of hitting a vital and stopping the threat.

There have been millions of people killed with a 22LR so don't think with testosterone, think with intelligence. Do you guys realize how many people were killed in WW2 and the Vietnam war with 22LR?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncqIPpgSy50

After my 21 years in the Army, the only killing i do nowadays is coyotes, bobs, mnt lions, fox and biggest is bear...all considered predators.

my favorite fur friendly, meaning it will not cause a huge exit wound damaging the fur on bobcats and fox is the .22 magnum. Fur is selling at top dollar so you don't want to have to sew it too much!!

as for coyotes (no fur purchase) and mountain lions (if going for a rug) then my favorite round is Federal soft point, 55 grain. 90% goes in, turns everything to mush and rarely exits.

shotgun with 3" #4 is pretty much the standard for coyotes, lions but within 50 yards. I do not use it on bobs or fox since it is a fur killer.

another consideration with SG rounds is BB. very effective, but the same as #4 when it comes to pelt damage.

the reason i compare these animals to the human, although not equivalent, they do show what terminal ballistics there are after downed. I realize that they would be thin skinned compared to a large man with a coat, but the 5.56/.223 will take any of the above predators with ease, so with good shot placement it would make sense that it would be the best of the bunch when it comes to HD.

one man said that a handgun is used to get you to your rifle. like i said in the previous thread, a home invasion is over with in seconds. staying put with cover, phone on 911 and leave it on so it records everything, and weapon--whatever it is--leveled at the entrance ready to go. a light is a necessity since you don't want to have a family member come in and you not be able to identify.

i can grab my handgun faster than the FN Tactical Police Shotgun that sits sleeping in the corner with 10 rounds of 00, C-More sight, and WML. I suppose if i missed with 2 mags, that would be 32 rounds, i prolly don't deserve to own a gun!!

i don't think other than a Red Dawn scenario that i would ever use a long gun in a middle of the night break in...IMO just not enough time to react.

My preferred home defense weapon is a can of black powder. Stick a fuse in it and light, then walk out the back door. Of course the house will be destroyed along with everything in it, but I got insurance.

not sure if you're serious here, but just in case you are.... that's pretty stupid. Insurance only covers it if someone else blows up your house.

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686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

I actually presently have a Ruger 10/22 as a HD weapon. Why?

My shotgun is at the shop having ghost ring's fitted. I keep that loaded with six rounds of 12ga 2.75" buck. People can argue about whether buckshot pellets are effective or not but they've worked well for deer hunting and man hunting for centuries now. Not to mention they travel in packs. A fist sized group of 9-12 00 pellets or 20something #4 buck pellets will leave a hell of a wound on someone and they will penetrate since they are moving at 1200fps or better.

Now, as to the Ruger? I have it. I can shoot it well. It's the one gun that makes me look like I actually learned something on the range in the Marines. I can dump a 25 round mag into a bowling pin on a string or my steel gong at 50 yards or so and make the majority of them hits.
I load it with CCI Stinger Hollow Points because they are fast and expand well and reliably. The round is a high quality round that will work. I wouldn't use cheap bulk pack .22.
My Ruger is super reliable and it functions well. It's easy to operate and with the 50 round (two 25 round BX-25 mags) capacity I can put a lot of fast moving lead down range in an accurate and timely manner with minimal issue.

That said even it is backup to my .357 and her .38. Sometimes I have other handguns easily available as well. The shotgun or whatever else is in a "safe area" a determined bad guy(s) would have to work hard to get to. The pistols get me and mine to that safe area and hopefully prevent said bad guy(s) from getting to us.

I trust my life to my .22. I know it and I know it works. It's not the best choice but for now it works until my shotgun is back. I trust my AK too and if I didn't live in Suburbia where both of the neighbors houses are 6' away from ours I'd consider it. Even a 122gr soft point from it would likely blast through several houses even after passing through a bad guy.

Just was reminded of that WWII vet in Michigan who killed an intruder with a single shot from his .22LR rifle sometime about a year ago. He wasn't very ambulatory so he just sat down and waited and dropped the guy when he came through the door. .22 is lethal. It's not a fist sized group of buckshot pellets, a 230gr or 125gr hollow point, or M67 frag grenade but it is lethal. Plenty of people are dead because of it. If that's what you have then use it but make sure it works and you have quality ammunition.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

I have a 9mm closest to me when I would be most vulnerable and I can
use that 9mm to get to my Shotgun or my Rifle... Both of which are loaded
and ready for action.

But assuming I can get to my rifle and shot gun.. I'm going for my
shot gun. One mag is full of 1oz slug, the other 00 buck.



I will say this though.. I'd rather have a 22LR than nothing! They can and will do damage.

thats why i said, "shot placement is key". notice almost all the people got hit in vital area's? head, neck, armpit(lymph nodes), back(spinal chord).
dont get me wrong. i am not one of those that claim: "if its not a 40/45, its a waste of my time". nor am im saying .22lr is worthless; but between being a rimfire & small = idk if i would trust my life on it(if i have other options). i think a 9mm is perfect for anything one might need, in regards to home defense.

btw: very informative post.

If you want to get folks excited on a firearms forum, I'm pretty sure the OP's question was the right one.

I'm more of a pistol/revolver kind of guy. Weapon retention is a lot easier (for me, anyway) if the thing isn't 3 feet long. Different strokes for different folks, though.

The hope that brandishing any kind of weapon is going to "scare the guy off" is just that, hope. The type of people who break into houses to steal stuff are also the type who have had weapons pointed at them (many times) before. When they're not scared of you, then what do you do?

If you're going to have a firearm in your home, accessible, for personal defense, you had better be ready and willing to kill the guy in the most expeditious manner possible. Otherwise, that guy is going to take it from you and either kill you and/or someone else with it.

If you don't think you can do that (contrary to popular macho-bravado thinking, this doesn't make you a "sissy", by the way), keep a big can of bear spray on the bedside table. That stuff will incapacitate just about anyone, and all you have to clean up is a little vomit and maybe a puddle of urine.

Ready and willing.. It's Black and White really.. You break into my home I have no idea what you are capable of doing. You go to the morgue in a body bag.

That's the way my logical mind works.. If I pull it, I'm firing it.. Unless they are running away.

Even though I have several handguns distributed around the house, the closest one to me is my 15-22...and you can bet I will not stop pulling the trigger till it is empty LOL

Damn! I need to upgrade my policy.

Wow?
Where to start- I will not offer my opinion, way too many already.
To address OP's original post-
"Over-penatration is not an issue with a 55gr. 223. The round is so light that when it hits something, the energy immediately bleeds off and the round degrades. That is why most police departments deploy them as "Patrol Carbines". 9,40's, 45- pick one- They will penetrate 8 sheetrock walls before they degrade to non-lethal=== that's 4 rooms folks, unless your lucky enough to hit a stud. We used 12ga slugs to breach hardened doors. The bad guys were screaming from the closets as the 2oz slugs buzzed through the house.

Who has trained to go from condition "White", sleeping in your nice warm safe bed to condition "RED" a deadly encounter? Do you have a family? Where are they? Are they in danger? What is the terrain? Do you have a plan?

Different States have different rules of engagement- I know not one who's self-defense doctrine includes the words,"Shoot to Kill" Deadly force is used to "Stop the Threat" Can you take a precision shot or do you aim center mass if you have a target?

I HOPE I NEVER HAVE TO DO IT FOR REAL- I have prepared my family, trained, trained and trained.

cheers

Mike

I expect no zombies so, in order:

Barking dog, big or small but loud

Alarm (monitored), with panic button at doors and in bedroom

Wife who is trained to shoot and does it VERY well

20 ga pump (non-tactical) women's/youth model, loaded but not chambered, more than adequate loads with less recoil.

45 ACP revolver, proven round with many variations (ball, frangible, HP) revolver simplicity, no fine motor skills required, no feeding problems. Extra moon clip, if you are so inclined.

"That's the plan Stan". Ammo choice is more a nuance, personal choice. 12 ga vs 20 ga is a non-issue and nobody wants to get hit with anything coming from a shotgun (birdshot, #4, 00).

$$$ spent on items 1 & 2 above is well spent. They are the first actions!

I own many many guns of all configurations (yes handguns too). Without question, I would recommend a SHOTGUN (of suitable gauge based upon your residential considerations). No matter how frightened, sweaty, shaky, blind you may be, when the trigger is pulled, anything in front of it dies. J.

dittttooooo

Ruger 10/22, 10 shots in neck and face. I saw the mess dead and crumpled up in the entrance way ruining nice tan carpet. Had a 38cal pistol laying next to him.....

The shooter was very upset and had to be sedated to get him to lay down and go to sleep.

Fixed it for you.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

No thanks. My home defense weapon is a Glock 20 with laser, and a flashlight for offhand. I've spend several thousand rounds practicing one hand double taps with that gun. I'll take two 10mm hits over a bunch of .22's.

Each law-abiding citizen chooses for themselves their self defense plan(s). With a child on the way, this complicates things too. Hollow point ammunition is generally regarded to stop when hitting BGs, drywall, etc. You may want to try a box or two with your .40 cal on some drywall/wood.

I wonder though - Is this just an excuse to buy another firearm?

Who needs an excuse?

If all you have is the loaded and ready 15-22, it's better than a sharp wit or a dull knife. However, a knife doesn't run out of bullets. Just don't bring one to a gun fight.

Mine is my HD weapon, but only because its the only firearm I own at the moment. I'm not too worried about it given my neighborhood but you never know. I have 2 25 round mags, jungle taped, loaded with mini mag hollow points. If you're still walking after that, then you've earned it.

My longest memory of a 22 rifle firearm is the Butcher dropping a steer with one shot before, U know. Plenty of capability there. Simple reason to use a revolver is centerfire is more reliable to fire percentage wise. Bring what U got is the best for that occasion. Knowing that the odds of having time or needing it are against U.
Maybe an impact statement would suffice ? Some Gel penetration test prove 22 LR penetrate as well as 22WMR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fe-dzdJ2zo

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Painted my Mag release red

15-22 as a home defense weapon?

Only if I had nothing else.

I have a M&P 15-22 look-a-like loaded and ready to go.
It's a M&P 15OR.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

With quality ammo and a clean firearm, why not? To an intruder all you have to do is brandish the thing and to most people it looks like an M16 so its most likely going to scare them off anyway. I don't think the intruder is going to ask to put and micrometer in your barrel to check if its a 22 or 223. They are going to be afraid of getting shot, most likely because they wouldn't have entered your home if they knew you had a gun and was ready to use it.

And what home intruder wears body armor?

People obsess about caliber, grain loads to use, hollow points, ect..

Im pretty sure when you shoot somebody it is as simple as; they hear a very loud bang or bangs and then they are going to feel an excruciating amount of pain and want to leave. Hes not going to ask you: "Hey was that a 9mm or high velocity .22?!"

Sorry about the rant but im getting sick of seeing some of the things said about 22s. When it comes to guns it isn't a pissing contest. All firearms no matter what size need to be respected.

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IcemanUSA
"Stay Frosty"

The good ones.

Like the respect you're getting during a home invasion?

Because there is no rimfire .22LR ammunition that matches the reliability, muzzle velocity, penetration, expansion, or energy of quality centerfire 9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP, 5.56 or .223 defensive ammunition (etc.) There just isn't.

Then why bother with an actual firearm for defense? Why not just cut the orange end off an Airsoft gun and save yourself a lot of cash?
You're recommending we bet our lives and those we love on what an armed intruder might do? That can be your plan. My plan is to put him down as quickly and surely as possible, not scare him into going away.

None of them do, until one does. But that's not the important thing. Adequate penetration through heavy clothing, fat, muscle, and bone to reach a vital organ or a critical CNS component is.

People who care about their own protection and the protection of their loved ones, and who understand the basics of terminal performance, yes.

I thought all you had to do was show them something that looked like a gun and they'd faint on your living room floor. Which is it?

Of course they do, nobody said they don't. And obviously, if the 15-22 is all you have, you'd be a fool not to use it. Nobody is saying not to under those circumstances.
What we are saying is, there are far better choices for a defensive firearm and caliber than the 15-22 in .22LR, and the strawman arguments are getting tedious.

Like the respect you're getting during a home invasion?[/QUOTE]

Huh?

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IcemanUSA
"Stay Frosty"

So..to sum it all up. If you feel safe using a 15-22 as a home defense weapon, do it. If you don't feel safe with it, then don't use it.

Yep, that sums it up. The concept of STOPPING a threat seems to allude you. Shooting someone with a .22LR is an iffy way of actually stopping an attack. They (.22LR) can be lethal but you have high odds of it being, in the short term, nuisance value only. Swinging your 15-22 like a baseball bat and hitting a perp in the head would likely do a better job of actually STOPPING his/her overt act(s).

So you wouldn't mind being shot by a 22 at point blank since its so weak?

I know its iffy, but like I said to the other guy this thread is for a guy with a 15-22 so I gave him my opinions about 22 for HD, there are obviously better weapon choices. I woudn't recommend it either but that is what he has.

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IcemanUSA
"Stay Frosty"

****Yes we know, but the thread is about a guy with a 15-22, not something else so I offered my opinions about that particular round and rifle. I knew I would get flack but I don't care. We all know there are better choices out there but unfortunately this thread isn't about those other choices.

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IcemanUSA
"Stay Frosty"

Too bad you didn't stop there but also blessed us with you "wisdom" on perps with body armor and obsessing over caliber etc and and loud bangs and how "all you have to do is brandish the thing and... its most likely going to scare them off". Maybe you should reread what you posted. It's post #141.

Yes, those are all qualities which a 22 rifle is capable of.. It can be presented, it goes bang, and it causes damage.

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IcemanUSA
"Stay Frosty"