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  #1  
Old 12-27-2012, 09:04 AM
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Arrow 15-22 as a home defense weapon?

Thinking about my new 15-22 as a home defense weapon. I live in a townhouse with residents on both sides so my 5.56 AR is too dangerous (penetrating walls). Not to mention the blast indoors on my ears, my wife's ears and our (soon to be born) son. Say you have a full mag & proper lights or a laser - could this be an option for fending off an intruder? Of course, if he's wearing body armor I'm screwed but hopefully nobody hates me that much.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

PS - I don't own a shotgun yet but I do have a .40 pistol among the other weapons mentioned above.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:12 AM
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I am not a firearms expert, but in my humble opinion I think the mp 15-22 would be a perfect home defense weapon.
Capasity to put multiple rounds on target very quickly.
Limited noise.
Limited risk of wall penetration.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:25 AM
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This topic has come up before. Startled in the middle of the night and/or under duress, most people are inaccruate, or at least inconsistent, with a pistol. Having a stock to brace against and a longer weapon to work with greatly improves accuracy under stress. In a nutshell, any accurate .22 delivered into a BG is better than a salvo of .40 cal bullets that never hit their mark. And if 25 rounds isn't enough... couple two mags together.

For HD, choose your ammo wisely. Buy something that always works, is accurate, and has some mass to it. Try out the CCI Velocitor .40gr or the Winchester Super-X PowerPoint 40gr.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:28 AM
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I guess it would be like how some people load their shotguns up with bird shot instead of buckshot to prevent over-penetration of walls. I still wouldn't want to get hit at close range with birdshot. It pretty much has the same impact. I also wouldn't want to get hit with 25 rounds of .22.

I'd use something like CCI Stingers (except in the PC model).
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:33 AM
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I believe that a .22, and especially the 15-22, would be a great HD firearm. Adequate capacity, fairly maneuverable in close quarters, and rails for accessories make this a good choice. Also, don't forget that it will be easier to educate and train the wife since the recoil and noise is only a fraction of what it would be with major caliber weapons. My EDC is a Ruger LCP and I sometimes get a little grief from my friends for it "only" being a .380, but so far, no one has offered to take a round to prove how ineffective it would be in an emergency. It is infinitely better to have some type of weapon handy in case of an emergency than to have to rely on voice commands to scare away bad guys. With a new baby on the way, your first concern should be to secure that gun against unauthorized access now so you will be in the habit by the time they reach the crawling stage. It won't be as long as you think.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:36 AM
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Shotgun and bird shot. Last two rounds are 00buck.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:45 AM
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I wouldn't trust my life on it, personally. (jmho) Most criminals will probably run or freeze if they saw someone with an ar and laser/light pointed at them. So intimidation factor is high compared to a handgun, esp at night. However if I was an intruder with a big gun and possibly drugged out, or that off chance the guy has some military type training.. you might wish you'd brought a bigger gun.

I'd might be pissed if you didn't take me out in the initial flurry of shots. At that point.. I'd be "***, I shouldn't have listened to the interwebs and bought that M&P15 or tac shotgun, this guys shooting at me, now what?" heh I think most theives are generally stupid and will run with noise.. but I'm not willing to take that chance for that instance it's not and they start spraying or have more experience than someone on america's dumbest criminals. Don't under estimate your enemy.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beuford T. Rimfire View Post
This topic has come up before. Startled in the middle of the night and/or under duress, most people are inaccruate, or at least inconsistent, with a pistol. Having a stock to brace against and a longer weapon to work with greatly improves accuracy under stress. In a nutshell, any accurate .22 delivered into a BG is better than a salvo of .40 cal bullets that never hit their mark. And if 25 rounds isn't enough... couple two mags together.

For HD, choose your ammo wisely. Buy something that always works, is accurate, and has some mass to it. Try out the CCI Velocitor .40gr or the Winchester Super-X PowerPoint 40gr.
That's because the average handgun owner knows little more than how to load it and shoot it at the range. If one does not have at least some basic self-defense training, he is better off hiding under the bed.

That same person will probably be just as inept and ineffective with a 15-22 and a 50-round drum because they have NO training in shooting in high-stress situations. Spray and Pray is not a valid self-defense plan.

If one is going to use ANY firearm for self or home defense, he better get training. Either that or leave an address of the funeral home he wants the flowers sent to.

My .22s are the LAST firearm I would be using and the LAST ammo i would use in a shotgun is bird shot. I want to STOP an intruder, not make him mad.

Last edited by Majorlk; 12-27-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:01 AM
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Personally, I bought my 15-22 for plinking. I don't know anything about the ballistics of a .22 round as far as it being effective against a home invader. I think there are a lot of things that factor into your question tho. Some things that came to my mind are:

- Can you safely secure your 15-22 and still allow quick access? For me, it's much easier for me to access and have my handgun ready vs. my 15-22.
- Since you mentioned you lived in a townhouse, are there a lot of tight spaces that would be difficult to maneuver in while holding the rifle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddmax View Post
Shotgun and bird shot. Last two rounds are 00buck.
I follow a similar philosophy with my .40 H&K USP (my primary home defense). The first 1/2 of the mag has FMJ rounds, if it's bad enough I go thru 1/2 a mag, then the hollow points will start flying. My thinking on this was minimizing collateral damage. If, heaven forbid, someone other than a criminal took one of those rounds, I think FMJ would do much less damage than the HPs.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:05 AM
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A Glock 30 .45 Auto with a TLR1-s mounted and an 18.5" Mossy tactical persuader with 00 buck is what resides by my bed. And a doberman
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptiq View Post
I follow a similar philosophy with my .40 H&K USP (my primary home defense). The first 1/2 of the mag has FMJ rounds, if it's bad enough I go thru 1/2 a mag, then the hollow points will start flying. My thinking on this was minimizing collateral damage. If, heaven forbid, someone other than a criminal took one of those rounds, I think FMJ would do much less damage than the HPs.
This flies in the face of every self-defense class I have ever heard of. I want the MOST potent round first. My sole intent in shooting an intruder is to STOP him. Why start with the less effective round? If you don't STOP the intruder, you may well not be alive to worry about hitting someone else.

Last edited by Majorlk; 12-27-2012 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:09 AM
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Very good points, Majorlk!

I guess my thoughts were that it beats using a lamp or other midnight bedroom item to defend yourself!

Shotguns are cheap and generally reliable. Anyone interested in keeping their home safe should at least go buy a $200 Maverick or something similar.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:12 AM
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One thing I am always told is something is better then nothing. While a 15/22 is not the ideal HD weapon. Its better then nothing I would just make sure to extensively test what ever kinda ammo I planned to use. I would not use bulk ammo
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
I follow a similar philosophy with my .40 H&K USP (my primary home defense). The first 1/2 of the mag has FMJ rounds, if it's bad enough I go thru 1/2 a mag, then the hollow points will start flying. My thinking on this was minimizing collateral damage. If, heaven forbid, someone other than a criminal took one of those rounds, I think FMJ would do much less damage than the HPs.
Yep. You're doing this backwards.

America seems hung up on the idea that movies accurately portray the stopping ability of handguns - in ANY caliber. Even with the most devestating HP's, one shot stops are NOT the norm.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:14 AM
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Actually, you are more likely to get collateral damage from FMJ. It will over penetrate walls and people.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:14 AM
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Practice often with your .40, use an effective expanding round (perhaps one designed for limited penetration) and secure it well. The presence of a firearm may prevent a situation from going bad, but don't count on having time for more than one round if it comes down to that, and the .40 will be much more effective if so.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:16 AM
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I read that in case of an encounter of some sort you should shoot for the groin / family jewels area to help stop them in their tracks., I don't think any kind of bad dude wants a laser light in that area reqardless of the caliber.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:19 AM
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Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys. I confess I've spent a lot of time at the range practicing, but I've never had home defense classes. You've given me a lot to think about, sometimes you don't know what you don't know. As much as I value the security of my family, and my responsibility to protect them, I greatly appreciate all the feedback...even though it wasn't what I expected hear. Adding a home defense class to the top of my to-do list.

EDIT: Sorry if I derailed the OPs questions, I'm getting a lot of benefit from this thread as well.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
I read that in case of an encounter of some sort you should shoot for the groin / family jewels area to help stop them in their tracks., I don't think any kind of bad dude wants a laser light in that area reqardless of the caliber.
I always aim for the righthand eyesocket area of my perp targets. Assuming that the majority of the population is righthanded and hopefully thus right eye dominant, I have then taken out the most important aiming feature of the body. You can't hit what you can't see.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:29 AM
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Also as far as shooting in between the legs and groin area, I would assume that a 22 would also be an effective penetrator stopper as well.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:32 AM
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printed target sillouettes of groin areas for practice will probably get strange stares at the range. You're going to have to practice.. I think bullseye crown jewel shots are not as easy a shot as people make it. lol Maybe if you have a red dot or something

Last edited by magnetik; 12-27-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
penetrator stopper
What??? Please tell me you meant "perpetrator."

And even then, I'd never shoot someone attacking me in the crotch. Kinda like getting kicked in the jewels, you've got 10 seconds to unleash fury on your attacker before the pain sets in. People, don't shoot perps in the cods. No one wants to get hit there, but only because none of us WANT to survive that wound - not becasue the wound is unsurviveable.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:42 AM
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Here is an interesting read

Answering some well asked questions about personal defense by Massad Ayoob
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beuford T. Rimfire View Post
I always aim for the righthand eyesocket area of my perp targets. Assuming that the majority of the population is righthanded and hopefully thus right eye dominant, I have then taken out the most important aiming feature of the body. You can't hit what you can't see.
I think that aiming center mass to the chest is more effective. Something about ribs cracking, shattering, and leaky lungs, should stop most people. Plus, the heart is in that region somewhere. Hmm, 2-3 bullets should suffice with most calibers. Head shots should be left for snipers and Hollywood movies. If you have to think too much about your shot in a high pressure situation, most will miss...even in a hallway.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:51 AM
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Based on the weapons I own and use I'd use my 20g shotgun first. Living where I live noise and penetrating the walls is not a concern. I do want the biggest impact...damage, sound and flash I can create and I feel the 20g is sufficient.
I do not own a handgun nor a weapon of higher caliber than my 2, 22lr's, and the 20g.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:53 AM
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Honestly, I don't shoot for the right eye of targets. I was using a bit too much irony in my reply.

However, If I were using my 15-22 for HD at short distance I wouldn't hesitate to go for a 10 round headshot. Any other firearm and I'd shoot for center mass.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
I read that in case of an encounter of some sort you should shoot for the groin / family jewels area to help stop them in their tracks., I don't think any kind of bad dude wants a laser light in that area reqardless of the caliber.
Hogwash! You shoot for the center of the chest. Shut down the central nervious system and he STOPS!

I don't intend to "light 'em up" or give them any other warning. If a perp is illegally in my house, he is toast. Any other mentality will get you or a family member killed,
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kefka21 View Post
Also as far as shooting in between the legs and groin area, I would assume that a 22 would also be an effective penetrator stopper as well.
Totally invalid assumption. .22s can easily be deflected. If you simply must use a .22, aim for the middle of the chest or the eyes and keep shooting until you are out of ammo.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:36 AM
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No way. While it may get the job done, I would not put my life on it.

Rem 870 or Mos 500.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:37 AM
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IMHO for home defense... first choice - shotgun with #4 buck shot, second choice choice - 9mm or larger handgun with quality JHP ammo tested for correct function, no other choice - 22 caliber anything. All my rifles are bolt-action hunting rifles and almost any rifle larger than a .22 will definitely penetrate more than the other choices. In my home, I have no way to adequately secure my shotguns from young grand children other than the safe, so my actual first choice is my carry pistol on my person, or my .40 S&W in a discrete quick access lock box.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:42 AM
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I would not bet my or my family's lives on stopping someone with a 22. No doubt it will hurt them and will probably kill EVENTUALLY but it doesn't have the stopping power. A $200 pump 12 gauge is plenty. Im not to worried about hearing loss from a few shot if its during a break in

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Old 12-27-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
If you simply must use a .22, aim for the middle of the chest or the eyes and keep shooting until you are out of ammo.
Exactly. If you're using a .22 your best hope is in overwhelming quantity.

But at that point you've effectively (or uneffectively) re-created ONE #4 buck shotshell's effect in slow motion... and now you're out of bullets.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Linejudgemick View Post
IMHO for home defense... first choice - shotgun with #4 buck shot, second choice choice - 9mm or larger handgun with quality JHP ammo tested for correct function, no other choice - 22 caliber anything.
I agree with that, first choice 20 gauge double barreled coach gun with #3 buck shot. Then it's my snubby with 110 grain Federal Hydra-shok and my wife with her 4" 66-3 loaded with 110 grain .357 Magnum JHP. We figure the lighter hollowpoints would give good stopping power with minimal over penetration.
I used to live in the Wash DC area and worked in the automotive industry. People would tell me what it's like to get shot by a .22. When you're tripping on crack or some kind of narcotic you don't even realize you're shot until you start bleeding. I'm not thinking I'll have time for a careful head/neck shot, I'm going to go for center mass with something they'll notice.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:21 PM
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We have all heard stories about homeowners shooting an armed intruder and not putting him down but leaving him simply hit. He survives then sues you and wins. Don't ask me how that's possible but there are plenty of liberal judges.

I have self loaded .45 acp's with 185 grain HP's. I won't miss. Saying we are so inept at self defense we should hide under a bed ... "oh, lordy, there is an intruder, kids just hide, that all you can do" is hog wash! Break into my house and see. I would never use a .22lr round on an intruder, even with 25 shots. I'm using knock down power and no getting up shot placement. My family is too important to me.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:56 PM
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Personally 22 is not the best choice but if it is the only choice it is better than nothing. Personally my first choice is my 12g with a wax slug then the rest 00 buck followed by my 9mm which I always wear in the house. If someone breaks in here I feel sorry for them.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Quark View Post
Personally 22 is not the best choice but if it is the only choice it is better than nothing. Personally my first choice is my 12g with a wax slug then the rest 00 buck followed by my 9mm which I always wear in the house. If someone breaks in here I feel sorry for them.
A wax slug???

If you find yourself having to shoot, you want to STOP the intruder in his tracks, not give him a bruised chest. Less than lethal ammo is a good way to get yourself and/or your family killed.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:51 PM
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if your going to use a .22 i recommend aquila sub sonic snipers--these things are incredable,60gr bullet solid nose with better expansion than any hollow point,they tumble doing bad things to soft tissue and when you pick up the spent slug it ressembles more a 9mm than a .22-usually a ball the size of a marble-and yes i use it in my carry piece and my 15-22 at home and yes i have bigger guns,they work great in my 15-22 with the ssar stock and have yet to have a missfire
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
A wax slug???

If you find yourself having to shoot, you want to STOP the intruder in his tracks, not give him a bruised chest. Less than lethal ammo is a good way to get yourself and/or your family killed.
Not only what he said, but, by using less than lethal ammo in a lethal weapon, aren't you admitting that you didn't fear for your life enough to employ deadly force? Is that a warning shot?

I have been taught, in roughly 100 hours of self defense firearm training, that warning shots indicate a lack of fear for one's life and should never be used under any circumstances. As much as I hate to say it, especially with the current climate regarding guns in this country, if you feel threatened enough to deploy a firearm, you better be ready to totally neutralize the threat with as few rounds as possible. Preferably using ammo that some LE agencies use to avoid the killer bullet offense.

The OP's original question was about using the 15-22 for HD. Is it the ideal round? Absolutely not. Is it better than a box of rocks, or a stern voice? Absolutely! Not everyone can afford several purpose oriented firearms, and need make do with what they have. I applaud the OP for trying to get good info to base his decision on, it is the responsible thing to do. And since he now says that SD training is in his future, I am sure all will be well at his home.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:26 PM
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In many states, mine included, a "warning shot" will get you charged with unlawful discharge of a firearm.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by aguablanco View Post
....The OP's original question was about using the 15-22 for HD. Is it the ideal round? Absolutely not. Is it better than a box of rocks, or a stern voice? Absolutely! Not everyone can afford several purpose oriented firearms, and need make do with what they have. I applaud the OP for trying to get good info to base his decision on, it is the responsible thing to do. And since he now says that SD training is in his future, I am sure all will be well at his home.
RichH
Thanks for all the feedback guys. @aguablanco, that wasn't actually me who said I was getting SD training however, I have had training, some from Shootrite, some of other places. My .40 XD is my go-to HD weapon right now and sounds like it will be for a while. Now I just need to focus on securing it with something like a small pistol safe that I can open quickly.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:09 PM
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Just my .02 cents worth of opinion.

I had to take a class for obtaining my Concealed Carry permit...about 12 years ago, Virginia. The range I went to was offering the class. It was pretty awesome: Firearms safety instruction, shooting stances, conceal carry techniques, a session with a prosecuting attorney, plus a shooting exam, all of which was a three week class...met Saturday evenings. But the coolest part was a session in home defense.

- No FMJ: Too much penetration; you want something that will stop inside a body and cause as much tissue damage as possible. Shotgun was best for high stress.
- Anything is better than nothing.
- Situational awareness first. Always gather family members to a single point. think phone, exit points.
- Situational awareness: Aim for the center of mass and empty the magazine. No sniper one-shot-one kill stuff. Lawyers will eat you up.
- With muzzle rise, stomach shots become chest shots become throat, spine, and face shots. Think of all the vitals and soft tissue.

In my humble opinion in as far as using .22, most perps are cowards looking to exploit someone's weakness, either physical and/or tactical; unless you’re in bad with some mafia types . But I will submit that at the first sound of gun fire there'll be asses and elbows, and with twenty-five rounds of .22 LR from an M&P 15-22 to the stomach, chest, throat and face, you will send a very, very strong message to the perp that you mean business.

Next time at the range, take some hard targets…not just paper. Coconuts, coffee cans filled with water, watermelons, plywood, drywall, 2x6’s, old laptop computer (my favorite ), etc…a blast of .22LR can wreak havoc. If this is all you have, I personally would not want to be on the receiving end of 1,000 grains of hot, pointy lead. (Think I did the math right, 40 grain x 25 rounds)??

Again, just my .02 cents worth of opinion. Use what you have available...but be proficient, and have an exit strategy.

Regards, Mike
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:46 PM
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Shotguns require too much user input. It is too easy to mess up a shotgun under high stress. And any malfunction with one is a fight stopper.

If you are worried about noise, buy a suppressor. While out won't turn an AR.into indoor hearing safe it will moderate the noise. A 12 guage indoors isn't fun.

As a defence gun the 15-22 is questionable at best. While it can work the margins of error are not in its favour. It will be an investment equal to the 15-22 but a suppressed short barrel 5.56mm rifle loaded with frangible rounds is probably your best bet. Simple user interface, able to easily take a white light for target ID and a red dot optic. easy too use, easy to fix if it stops rapidly able to reload if you need to.

Of course getting one now may be difficult our expensive.

Forget about 50% of the garbage in this thread about not killing the bad guy. If you shoot someone you are employing lethal force. By the very act you are, by law, trying to kill them. Using anything that reduces this level of force is silly. If you aren't justified in killing them with your first shot you shouldn't be shooting at all. Any decent lawyer will be able to counter any problem questions about hollow point bullets or equipment by calling in experts. Remember it all hinges on you being correct in shooting in the first pace.

Get a rifle, get proper training with it. In the mean time if the 15-22 is all you have, so be it. It isn't a combat weapon, but it is dangerous.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:03 PM
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A wax slug???

If you find yourself having to shoot, you want to STOP the intruder in his tracks, not give him a bruised chest. Less than lethal ammo is a good way to get yourself and/or your family killed.
Just youtube wax slugs to see how they are made They are just bird shot held together with wax.
Shotgun Wax Slugs "Ballistics Gel" - YouTube
  #44  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:08 AM
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Even at close range bird shot is not effective enough to ensure it is a fight stopper.

Will it ruin someone's day? Yes. But it may not take them out of the fight. You don't get to chose when the fight ends, only the attacker does, either by turning and running or by becoming noneffective to fight through blood loss or CNS disruption.

There are 3 basic responses to a threat, fight, flight or freeze. If you turn the tables on the attacker he is likely to do one of those three things. One is still press his attack. Having sprayed him down with bird shot may not have done anything besides made him attack more.

Wax slugs with bird shot are cute, in the same way Glaser Safety Slugs are cute. The idea is nice, but the terminal effect on a motivated, aggressive target may not be optimal.

While calibrated ballistic gelatine is useful for information gathering and some data can be correlated it is different from actually shooting someone with it.

KBK
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:53 AM
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Personally, I bought my 15-22 for plinking. I don't know anything about the ballistics of a .22 round as far as it being effective against a home invader. I think there are a lot of things that factor into your question tho. Some things that came to my mind are:

- Can you safely secure your 15-22 and still allow quick access? For me, it's much easier for me to access and have my handgun ready vs. my 15-22.
- Since you mentioned you lived in a townhouse, are there a lot of tight spaces that would be difficult to maneuver in while holding the rifle?




I follow a similar philosophy with my .40 H&K USP (my primary home defense). The first 1/2 of the mag has FMJ rounds, if it's bad enough I go thru 1/2 a mag, then the hollow points will start flying. My thinking on this was minimizing collateral damage. If, heaven forbid, someone other than a criminal took one of those rounds, I think FMJ would do much less damage than the HPs.
Actually all the FMJ would do is p*** the guy off as they winged him and then went thru your neighbor's wall into their house.The military uses FMJ because of the Geneva Convention. In your case you do not want to fight fair. What you want is rounds that stay in the intruder and don't cause collateral damage, which FMJ will do for sure. Save those for the range. If you need to worry about penetration then get PD safety bullets (Glasers, Magsafes, or some kind of frangible bullet). And in a shotgun, especially a pump, only load the top of the mag at the back with one round of birdshot. That way you can pump it clear when you know the situation is deadly. Everything else should be either PD (like PDX) or buckshot rounds (I prefer 3" magnum #4B which is 41 pellets in the next 2 then some 00B after that). And practice. A shotgun will create a lot of flash and noise but you have to be prepared to shoot more than 1 round. I personally recommend firing 2 rounds with a shotgun and 3 with a pistol (CF) before you decide to see if he/they are still there. And make sure what you are shooting at also. Not the dog or your neighbor (unless they really are the bad guys). More practice.
I do not recommend a .22 rifle unless it is the only weapon you have to work with. If that is all you have prepare to shoot at least 5 and no more than 10 rounds with some accuracy. Did I mention practice? Practice is the only way to create the muscle memory you need in a stress situation. Get some lessons and practice.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Kayback View Post
Shotguns require too much user input. It is too easy to mess up a shotgun under high stress. And any malfunction with one is a fight stopper.

If you are worried about noise, buy a suppressor. While out won't turn an AR.into indoor hearing safe it will moderate the noise. A 12 guage indoors isn't fun.

As a defence gun the 15-22 is questionable at best. While it can work the margins of error are not in its favour. It will be an investment equal to the 15-22 but a suppressed short barrel 5.56mm rifle loaded with frangible rounds is probably your best bet. Simple user interface, able to easily take a white light for target ID and a red dot optic. easy too use, easy to fix if it stops rapidly able to reload if you need to.

Of course getting one now may be difficult our expensive.

Forget about 50% of the garbage in this thread about not killing the bad guy. If you shoot someone you are employing lethal force. By the very act you are, by law, trying to kill them. Using anything that reduces this level of force is silly. If you aren't justified in killing them with your first shot you shouldn't be shooting at all. Any decent lawyer will be able to counter any problem questions about hollow point bullets or equipment by calling in experts. Remember it all hinges on you being correct in shooting in the first pace.

Get a rifle, get proper training with it. In the mean time if the 15-22 is all you have, so be it. It isn't a combat weapon, but it is dangerous.
Sorry but a shotgun is the BEST home defense firearm because you can throw out needing to be accurate. Every other firearm requires accuracy even in a corridor. Especially a pump that generally is more reliable than even the average pistol. 9 times out of 10 just racking the slide will scare the H*** out of a perp. A shotgun will eat up multiple targets, nothing else will unless they line up for you. And shotguns tend to be the least problem under stress. But everything requires practice. I don't like the idea of an AR because it gives the impression of overwhelming force, an "assault rifle", which in some juridictions can get you into trouble. But whatever you have needs to be the firearm you practice with. A .25 pop gun you shoot at the range is better than anything else that stays in the safe.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:41 AM
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Everyone has given a lot of good information. But when it comes right down to it any firearm is better than no firearm. If someone breaks into to your home you have to protect yourself and your family, use what ever you have.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:18 AM
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Just youtube wax slugs to see how they are made They are just bird shot held together with wax.
Shotgun Wax Slugs "Ballistics Gel" - YouTube
You can trust your life to such things if you want to. I choose to use things that will STOP the perp, not make them slow down.

In that same vein, I am not interested in "sending any message" except the perp is on the ground and no longer a threat to me or my family. If he dies in the process, that's HIS problem!
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:07 AM
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Sorry but a shotgun is the BEST home defense firearm because you can throw out needing to be accurate. Every other firearm requires accuracy even in a corridor. Especially a pump that generally is more reliable than even the average pistol.
I beg to differ. At normal house sized ranges you are not going to be getting any spread out of most shotguns. Shotgun ammunition stays in a pretty tight wad inside of 10m. You may, MAY, get some errant spread, but the bulk of it will be in a nice tight group.

You most definitely still need to aim with one. Ask any clay pigeon shooter. You can't just point it and to break a clay all you need is one teeny little pellet to hit. To stop an attacker you need more than that. And your target isn't much bigger than a clay.

Inside most houses all weapons will need aiming, besides probably a flame thrower. You'll have to aim your shotgun just as much as a rifle. And if you miss with the shot, it is easier to get another on target with a rifle than the shotgun.

A shotgun, especially a pump, can suffer stoppages. The easiest one is just not pumping hard or far enough, something people often do under stress. This is easily rectified, but it isn't always obvious and a click when you need a bang can really mess up your OODA loop, meaning you are even worse off. Reloading can be just as bad. If you get the shell past the loader plate, but not into the tube you can lock up the gun in such a way tools are needed to get it running again.

I'd also like to see a study on the effects of a pump being racked. I've never wet myself when guys on the line do it. I'm willing to bet it is a Hollywood inspired thing like thimbing the hammer back on your pistol to tell someone you "really mean business!"

The only advantage shotguns have is they are cheap. You can pick one up for about what I'd suggest in spending on tax stamps to get a properly set up AR.

KBK
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:11 PM
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Noise from a shotgun being racked scaring away an intruder is Hollywood nonsense with little, if any, basis in fact.
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