So I'm new to marksmanship, and the folks both at the range (sometimes) and on reddit's /r/guns aren't very helpful to newbies it seems.

I've had my 15-22 for a month or so now, and shot ~975 rounds through it. I've bought a Primary Arms Red Dot and a Primary Arms Green Laser as well as miscellaneous things.

My range goes out to 25 yards, not far, but I work with what I have. I have some questions/observations/comments I'd like to see addressed if I could ask for the assistance.

1. I have the red dot sighted in at 50 feet (read: feet not yards), and my shots are roughly 90% on target. However my groupings are 1-2 inches or even sometimes more at 50 feet. Why is this? I have a few hypothesis: One, I'm not exactly very strong or muscularly built so no matter where I hold the rifle I have a lot of sway, and my arms get tired after a while of holding the barrel up. Two, shooting at the range makes me nervous, of which I assume will soon subside. Three, I'm doing something wrong stance wise or something else wrong wich is effecting my shot placement. Four, good marksmanship, even at 50 feet, takes a lot of time to master and I should just keep working at it.

2. When I shoot at a target 75 feet away, my shots are an inch low but still maintain the above 1-2 inch grouping. When I shoot at a target 35 feet away, my shots are an inch high but also still maintain the grouping. Why is this such a dramatic difference with such short distances?

3. I'm not sure how to zero my green laser. Should I see the laser right next to or on top of my red dot when I look through my sight? Or something else?

4. Why are people at the range so cold and unfriendly, even the range staff have a brazen, rough attitude toward everything. Am I doing something wrong which bothers them? I follow all the safety rules and guidelines and have only made one mistake with the airlock doors which I plan to correct.

Which ammo are you shooting?

Believe me I had in basic training the same issues... Training training training till the weapon gets light

People have already in mind uhh soon I will get a big bang and tend to tense up. Get comfortable with the gun, shoot it from a table so you can get comfortable with the rifle without that you get tired so quickly nor that you have to pay attention on how your body position is.


How do you pull your trigger? In a continuous speed or more like a quick pull?

Correct

A bullet doesn't fly straight out of the gun but climbs a little and drops again, it basically does a huge bow. So there are 2 point where the bullet will impact where your dot is.

So at 35y the bullet is in that slight climb while at 75 it is probably in a decent. So between those 2 distances is the perfect spot where you actually hit dead on where you aim.

I see it as a personal preference. I like to use my laser for close range and scope for long. Like that I am more flexible


Because people are retards... At gun ranges people tend to play the role of the tough , I know everything about weapons guy...
I prefer shooting at a friends range because of exactly what you are describing there

Welcome to the fourm... If your groups are good it must be you sights... sight them in and practice practice practice... Seems your shootings ok cause of your groups... good shooting to ya and welcome agin...

First and foremost thanks for taking the time to reply and separate out my post and your responses, I appreciate it.

Mostly bulk Federal and Blazers


Makes sense.


What's the best way to shoot from a table without a bipod?


Probably a quick jerky pull, I'll focus on getting a continuous fluid pull.

Interesting okay.

Alright that sounds good.


I wish I had friends with shooting ranges hah.

Thanks!

Nothing wrong with that. I tried once Remington Golden Bullets.. Terrible groupings


Your body is just not used being in a shooting position, but training training training and you will need eventually zero effort. Your body position is very important if you want to shoot really precise. The lack of recoil of a .22 makes it kinda different to feel when the position is right, shoot a 7.62 and you know it quickly

A little sandbag. I wouldn't buy one from a shop but just make one. You can use a big ziplock bag , fill it with with sand and put a layer of duct tape around it. Voila

Probably when you do the quick jerky pull you tense to much so you get slightly of target. Just for training you can start with a kinda very slow pull till you get a feeling for the trigger and where exactly the shot goes off, eventually you get quicker and quicker


I had a Steyr AUG when I was in service, there it was 30meters and 300meters

Lets say you are out on the field shooting at 100yards but then you are entering a building. Using the scope is not applicable, so there you switch over to laser to clear rooms etc. Yeah yeah little military coming out of me


It is a big dirt pile and just tons of swamp with nothing else around

I have my laser set for 12 yards & my red will set it for 25 yards when I get a chance. Range I shoot in is a 25yard max. I turn on the laser look a my red dot & see a smaller dot that belongs to the laser. I was teaching my lil girl. I had both on, I aim at the wall which is like 12 yrs & both dots where on each other as I move to a far side one dot start going down as distance start increasing.

__________________
Here's a present BOOM ha ha ha

Yea what they said!!! Also- your red dot has mass. I am not familiar with the sight you are using but the tech sheet that came with your red dot should tell you how big the dot is. For instance, if it is a 1MOA dot, it will take up 1 circular inch at 100 yards, 1/2 inch at 50 and so on. A 1moa dot is the best you'll ever see- and pay $$$$. I have heard of 4-7MOA red dots which would give you a spread between 4-7 inches at 100 yards. Remember- 1MOA at !00yrds= 1/2 MOA at 50yrds = 1/4MOA at 25yrds or 75feet-- A 1MOA dot will give you a 1/4" group at 75feet barring other factors- Multiply this by whatever size dot you have- ANd that is as tight a group as physically possible with that site. The laser and site should occupy the same space at whatever range you zero the weapon to. I personally do not like lasers- they make you lazy and slow- You spend more time looking for this tiny red/ green light rather than engaging the target.

Rules to remember- 1.Sight alignment, 2.trigger press, 3.follow- through.

1. nuf said-- 2. press- no pulling, slapping, jerking. The bang should be a surprise- if you've got a stock trigger, you have a fair amount of "take up" before the sear and disconnector release the hammer. press all the creep out of it, exhale(we'll get to that later) and continue a slow steady press until you hear bang---- do not release the trigger right away-

3. Follow-through- It takes time for the bullet to exit the barrel. If you release the trigger to soon, you can jerk the weapon and send your round off the mark. Hold the trigger down after the bang for a 1-2 count, then release and feel the reset travel- how long it takes to reengage the sear- you will hear an audible click- then release it the rest of the way. You do this a few thousand times and your muscle memory will respond- haha.

have i pontificated enough?

good shooting-

I have to agree with the advice given and will add this: the targeting laser is totally useless beyond a certain range and should be synchronised with your bullet path to be of any assistance. I use an inexpensive laser bore-sighter for this but use 25-yards for my maximum with the laser. Beyond that you begin to have bullet drop that your laser cannot compensate for. Besides, trying to see the dot of a laser at 50-yards (especially in daylight) is difficult. That bore-sighter is also good for zeroing in your red-dot and can even be used out to 100-yards if you know what the bullet drop is at that range for your ammo and make the compensation yourself. For anything over 50-yards a simple telescopic sight is rewarding and especially over 100-yards. Yes, your iron sights can be fine tools for marksmanship but it really takes skill and a daunting amount of practice to master them. Target shooting is kind of like golf; impossible to master but such fun to try! Enjoy your rifle and welcome to the 15-22 fraternity (girls welcome also).

__________________
Vide - Aude - Tace

When I shoot my 15-22 from the table I usually use my range bag or the soft case for my 10/22 to rest the AFG (fore grip).

Seems like every range is a little different - vis a vis the attitude thing. Glad I found one with friendly , helpful staff and a good mix of customers. Ours has lots of families where mom, dad, and the kids are having a good time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

probably most of your questions have been answered by now. I have not been on this forum for long, but if found that this site mirrors what you'll find on the range or in life. Some very good folks, some know it all's and some jerks. Don't let it bother you. Take your time, don't feel rushed, shoot and have fun. You don't need to turn around and chat if you think they are eye balling you. Just get used to your rifle and read up on shooting. Watch videos of military trained shooters, you'll find your stance easily.

I took my 7 year old to the range the other day. The range marshall stopped by often. I thought he was going to be nasty because he kept peering and looked cranky. After a while I stopped by and gave me a bunch of unfired .22 rounds, he helped me pick up a bunch of .45 acp cases, then he got a piece of paper to show my son (no, I did not mind - he was a grandpa and surely loved kids) how to use an iron sights. My next door booth neighbor asked if my son wanted to shoot his S&W .22 revolver. We wanted to say no, but realized it would be rude to refuse so we gratefully accepted. There are some cool people at the range. In this sport or ANY other, there are know it all's that can ruin your day, just don't let them. Hell go ask them for advise. They love to hear themselves talk. Or if they know it all, just let them be, smile and move on. Shooting is supposed to be fun for you, not them. ;-)

Here’s a pretty good site (IMHO) that talks about B.R.A.S.S.

Breath—Relax—Aim—Sight—Squeeze.

I think this guy does a pretty good job discussing the merits of Breathing control, Relaxing before/during/after the shot (follow-thru), Aiming for your sight picture, Sighting on the target, Trigger control -squeeze not jerk.

JarHeadTop.com

Regards, Mike

Lots of helpful advice but I wanted to correct this statement, the bullet does not climb - it only drops (gravity at work). What you see as a bow is actually your barrel shooting UP so technically the trajectory of the bullet is up initially. It then meets the red dot or scope (which is above the barrel) and eventually again as it continues to fall - so there are 2 positions where the scope is zero'd (for you, 16yds and somewhere out at 90yds).

Your groupings are not terrible, and will improve. Just relax and you'll soon see improvements. I would skip the green laser for now, you can play with it later if you like. Some would probably say to skip the red dot too and use the irons, not bad advice but you've already started so just continue as you are.

Strength or muscularly have very little to do with it, if you can reduce the stock length it may help with control if that's an issue. It is probably more nerves than anything at this pointl.

As far as the range, some are like that, my suggestion, find another! If you have a family owned one that is probably where you will find friendlier folk but either way, your rifle is your friend so just have fun.

Keep coming back with your questions, great bunch on here.

I see that getting posted constantly. It makes me wonder how many people believe it. Good catch.

One more suggestion, get a sling and go to an Applseed event. The people and instructors there are great and you will learn a lot for a very small price. For Colorado, here's your upcoming schedule: Appleseed Schedule

You mentioned reddit and it can be a little tough to start there, but search for Appleseed within the /r/guns area, and look for things posted about it by PresidentEnder. He is sometimes brash and yells a lot, but he gets to the point.

Other people have already addressed this misconception, but I'll repost my old diagram that illustrates what's happening.
The bullet does not "climb" above its initial line of trajectory, that is impossible and would violate basic physics. Assuming your rifle and the target are on the exact same plane, your rifle is actually slightly canted upward, which means the bullet flies in an arc. If the rifle was held perfectly level, the bullet would drop immediately upon leaving the barrel. See the diagram below for a graphic illustration. Note the angles are exaggerated for effect.


However, your line of sight through your optic, or irons, is a perfectly straight line. So, since the bullet begins dropping the instant it leaves the barrel, and the rifle is angled slightly upwards, there are two points where the bullet's flight path crosses your line of sight. This effect is exaggerated on AR-pattern rifles since the optic/sights are higher above the bore than on other types of rifles.

1. Shoot from rest if you are trying for tight groups. When "battle traiing", don't worry about >1" groups, COM is what counts. Oh, and hit the gym

2. Did you mean yards instead of ft? The center of the optic and bore are usually 2-3" apart = height over bore, so if you shot something at 1ft, you'd be about 2.75" low for most AR-type setups. At some point (depending on how it is zeroed) there is a crossover of the two. Given the range of the round being fired, the shot should be low before the zero yardage, on target at the zero, and depending on the round can continue to arch and be back on again at long distances (like in .223) or can drop from there out with weaker rounds such as .22.

A lot of it depends on the distance it is zeroed.

3. Same thing for the laser. There will only be one distance at battle distances that a laer zero will be spot on. The laser is straight, and your trajectory is not. If the laser mounted on the side, let's say the right side, the crossover point will be accurate, but the laser might be to the left of the POI past that. Set at the distance you think you are most likely to use it, and you'll be good.

4. It depends on the range and who is there that day. I've met a lot of nice folks at the range. But there are that group of folks in the gun community that think they are GI Joe, and everyone else doesn't deserve to be there. Luckily, all the people I meet at my local outdoor range seem to just love shooting and often offer to let you shoot there weapons.

Good luck, and do some reading on trajectory. There are some ballistic calculators that you enter your distance, grain, height over bore, ballistic coef, etc, and it calculates you trajectory. You can also google "trajectory chart" and see what I am talking about.

The main thing is have fun.

__________________
686, 629, 15-22 MOE FDE

Nice..never knew they held this in my city!