And your options are to walk away, do without, find it elsewhere, or pay the man. Pardon the pun, but no one has a gun to your head and this commodity is NOT required to sustain life, not illegally gotten gains, and not under control of anyone but the owner. I'm tired of the entightlment mentality. I substantially extended my supply SINCE all this started, paying on average $0.04 for .22, $0.25 for 9, $0.30 for 40 and .223, and $0.60 for 45 LC; ALL NAME BRAND, a box here, a box there. I worked at it, taking time to stop in places like Walmart instead of driving by, keeping my eyes open, and networking with friends to multiply our eyes and feet on the street. Like life, hard work and cooperation will always get you ahead. Whining never does. I may even go sell some now as profit for my efforts just for the heck of it. I heard some think $0.10 is a reasonable price for my $0.04 .22 and will pay as high as $0.25.

PS - I also have a bunch of canned goods, dry goods, bottled water and gasoline. I'm such a bad person for thinking beyond today and never expecting someone else to prepare for me.

PPS - I live less than 2 miles from the local resevoir and the Town charges me more than $800 for water in the summer. How would you deal with that???

[QUOTE=RedNeck Jim;137220117]

When freedom depends upon one persons opinion is it becomes tyranny of the one over the many.

It's ammo dude, get a life and be prepared for the next time. Consider it a teaching moment. I am really tired of all these "it's not fair, he bought too much" or "he's got too much money to blow and buy ammo so he is stupid, an abuser or his fault this is happening to me etc.." or "its gouging there outta be a law"

Man up. There is no ban. At some point within the next year you will be able to buy ammo. Look at those people crying "m4's will never be affordable again" and "Pmags buy them for $50 before they go up more". How wrong they were. Colt 6920s are back down to under $1100 not even 6 months later. In a few months ARs will sell for less than what they did in December. I was at the shot show and everyone had their 2013 production run sold out and were running 24/7. But if supply has caught up with demand by the beginning of May imagine what the oversupply is going to be like at the end of summer.

We went through the same thing when McCain lost. Ammo was scarce, shortages, prices up. It ended within the year and I was paying $350 for 1K rounds of federal xm193 again.

By Christmas with no ban in sight you think the MRS. is going to let her husband continue to stock up thousands of rounds when there are presents to be bought for the kids?

Relax. Stop blaming everyone else for your failure to plan. Save your money and when you find ammo, purchase all you want. I served 10 yrs in the Army for your freedom to buy as much as you want and sell it for whatever the market will bear regardless of anyone's opinion.

BTW I haven't purchased ammo in over a year.

[QUOTE=Angel;137221818]Amen, and thank you for your service to our fine country. We stand behind you.

I love how all the hoarders talk about learning a lesson and being prepared.

Sitting on the 10's of thousands of rounds and they couldn't hit a house if they were on the inside of it shooting out.

I call being prepared shooting weekly, and i do.

The ammo is out there but doesn't change the fact that ammobob is right, and enthusisasts are screwing their own kind..

Only ammo i'm short is 22lr, and that's because in January I passed on an entire shelf of it at the basspro in altoona iowa, because I had plenty at the time and very literally sat there and thought to myself i don't want to contribute to the problem.. but like i said i shoot allot and weekly so even a reasonable stockpile doesn't last 5 months if you actually shoot.

In the immortal words of Pogo, "We have met the enemy, and it is us!"

And if the ammo doesn't come back, what then?

Firstly, nobody said anything about entitlement of any sort. You may want to reread. Secondly, nobody was whining, just trying to wrap my head around what I feel is clearly extremely unethical behavior. As I said multiple times, I prepare quite extensively, and have never expected anyone to give me anything. There is such a thing as profit, and there it such a thing as Profiteering. Look it up.

And how would I deal with a town charging me $800 for water? Very simple. I'd dig a well. If that's not an option, I'd move. If that's not an option I'd pay it. I don't agree with it especially, but I don't know the situation. Maybe you knew that when you moved there? I planned ahead when I bought my property and bought a place with plenty of on site water, so I don't have that problem.

I don't begrudge anyone making a profit, but I do not agree with some of the stores very unethical business practices.

[QUOTE=Angel;137221818]I'm not really sure why you are all ginned up, I never said any of those things or blamed anyone for anything, nor did I ever say there was a ban, in fact I stated the opposite. I was simply trying to wrap my head around the seriously unethical business practices of some. I never blamed anyone for anything. As for Man up, well that kind of stuff doesn't even deserve a response. Maybe you want to reread from the beginning? Seems your gripe is with someone else. And as for your service, good for you. I've got sand in my boots too, and a permanent limp to go with it, so we're more than even there. Those rights we fought for doesn't mean that people have reason to be unethical, even though they can. That's called lack of integrity. I know for all of the guys I stood with integrity was extremely important. Why is it so much less important now?

And I do not see the original post by Red Neck Jim that is being quoted?

Also for kicks look up the terms "Just Price" and "Profiteering" and maybe "Business Ethics" among others on wikipedia. Some interesting cross reads there as well.

And to think, all this time I've been hoarding butter. I knew I was missing something...

You can never have enough ammo!!

I bought my first rifle in July of last year, a 15-22. Bought a few hundred rounds and went through it pretty quick. As I went out to get more as I needed it, I noticed the price going up, not at my LGS because they are great, but everywhere else. So I started buying more at a time. Then I got a SR-22P and started buying more.

I stopped shooting for a few months over the winter as I shoot outside on my own property, but I kept buying as I saw decent prices. Now I am sitting on about 5k rounds. I get more through the ammo thread when good deals pop up, and I sell to friends at cost. I will certainly go through all the ammo I have in the next year, but I will probably keep a buffer of about 5k to ride out storms.

I do disagree about hunting with 22. You will not have to follow trail for days unless you are hunting with a bolt action and take the first shot you see. If you pick your shot carefully and use a semi auto like the 15-22 you can get a few follow up shots in before the animal hits the tree line or makes it out of site. Not as easy as a high caliber, but well within reach.

[QUOTE=Ammobob;137221963]You & me both. Rather strange the way he says he's quoting me yet doesn't.

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FIDELITAS ET FORTITUDO

Forgive me put that statement is a little hard to understand. What are you referring to, and can you clarify please?

Who is the one that gets to determine what is excessive? You want another government agency to define that for us all? I think we have enough big brother already. What is excessive to you might be the bare minimum for someone else. But even then, in a free society, how can we fault someone for excessive spending? Is that not capitalism at its finest? Is that not the engine that drives our economy? If people only bought what was needed or essential, our economy would look more like North Korea's.

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FIDELITAS ET FORTITUDO

I revised the post with a quote from you, who I agree with; and another members response to you.

I supposed we each have our idea of what is excessive. And no, I am against governmental control over anything that is not directly enumerated in our founding documents.

But there IS such a thing a profiteering. I feel it is unethical for a retail ammo supplier to buy product from another retail ammo supplier and charge triple for it, as one example. The person who saw boxes on a shelf at walmart at a certain price, tried to buy them, was told they were not for sale, and had to be repriced, then watched the boxes be repriced and set back out for sale at 3x the price. That is unethical.

There is such a thing as taking advantage of a situation (fear, panic) to raise prices far above normal product value. There have even been instances of artificially created panic or shortages in order to cause panic and fear and drive up price to exorbitant levels. This is all covered in basic economics.

Ah I see! Thank you sir!

I like turtles

I agree with you. Government structures and laws are in place to stop price gouging on items we need (gasoline in emergencies, etc.). Ammo doesn't fall into that category.

That said, I'm not sure excessive materialism is the only thing that drives our economy. Most responsible consumers work within a budget. Are there excessive purchases? Sure. But everyone I've met (with one or two exceptions... i.e. foolish people with too much money and not enough brains) shops around for the lowest price. In my opinion, competition is the main force driving our capitalistic system, not excessive, irresponsible consumer spending.

What we're seeing with .22 ammo is simple Adam Smith-style supply and demand issues which will reverse when the supply catches up.

But back to your point: Can we fault someone for excessive spending?

When someone buys a brand new car, the moment they drive off the lot they've instantly lost ~20-30% value on the car. Any way that you cut it, that person has spent excessively, given that there are millions of used cars that are perfectly viable in the market.

Are they within their rights to spend that money? Sure.

Is there anything wrong with losing ~20-30% of the money you spent instantly? Not if you can afford it but some consumers might think that is a poor use of their money.

Is the money spent wisely? Well, no, probably not as wisely as it might otherwise be spent.

Just my opinion but I think needs must be balanced with greed. On the capitalistic seller's side, if you want to charge the earth for a tiny box of .22 ammo, there is nothing wrong with that. PT Barnum's philosophy of a "sucker born every minute" holds pretty true.

On the consumer's side, if you are wise and don't want to be a "sucker," you'll wait for the supply curve to exceed the demand curve before spending your money.

Well, if we lived in North Korea, profiteering would be a bad thing... unless you were connected to the leadership. However, is that not the point of capitalism? Why is it now a bad thing? You think Ford, Gates, Rockefeller, Hearst, etc., etc. didn't get rich by profiteering? What about the gas you buy? You seen Exxon's profits?

Of course I don't want to pay so much for gas, ammo, or for my car or for some software, but if the market will bear it, God bless them & God bless capitalism.

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FIDELITAS ET FORTITUDO

You want ammo now ? Do what it takes to get it now. Sell stuff, trade stuff, offer services, etc, etc Get creative & get off your backside. Most of us on this forum have some resources. Afterall, we can buy computers and we can buy expensive guns that shoot the high priced ammo that we complain about.

You want ammo at pre Sandy Hook prices now ? Maybe you'll get lucky, but don't hold your breath. I'd like to buy gas at 1957 prices, but thats not gonna happen soon either.

Youre not going to pay any more than pre Sandy Hook prices ? Youre gonna have to wait. Maybe the supply situation will improve. And maybe another event will happen and the supply situation will get even tighter. "You place your bets and takes your chances." Unless you have a crystal ball or are in a high level position in a major ammo manufacturer or in government, you don't know what will happen in the future. You only have your opinion and belief that 'tomorrow will be like yesterday' - - often that's true, and sometimes it isn't.

What absolutely doesn't work ? Refusing to pay the price to get ammo now, and then complain about others who have different priorities and a view of the future than you do. What doesnt work ? Spending time to complain, rather than taking action to get what you say you want.

P.S. - - - most of these points are a rewrite of those I brought up to a nephew who recently entered a local small college. He wants all sorts of things now, but hasnt seemed to be willing to put in the work or creative thought to get them. He seems to be waiting for someone else to do it for him. Thats not a good way to start out as an 18 yr old kid.

Yeah! What he said! Do what you need to do to get what you want. All there is to it.

Everyone provides excellent arguments to both sides. Supply/demand will eventually even out. Prices will just continue to hold, or rise. Ammo prices are anyone's guess these days.

Personally? I have one rule about ammo and this photo sums it up nicely.

I say that. I just finished relocating 10k of it in various calibers. I enjoy reloading as a relaxing way to zone out. I guess my stress levels were a little high and a stock pile built up.

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Matt H.

Yep! I saw this coming in 2008 & Prepared acordingly & have Plenty of Everything I haven't purchased anything in 2013 & won't untill supplys/prices settle down Then I will do as always buy a little & put some up for later,Ammo Keeps as long as it's well stored (G.I. Cans for Me) Price will likely not go down so there is no reason not to stock up.

I do have something that uses and likes that ammo. I had a life-time supply before. I have been stocking up since Bill Clinton won the election in 1992. Now I have more in case I live longer than expected.

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U.S. Navy - U.S. Army, ret

So you had "enough" and you passed on 22LR. Now you're short on 22LR and refer to those who are prepared as "hoarders"?

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

I too shoot weekly. Knowing this, I continue to purchase ammo to supplement and offset what I shoot.

Guess what that leads to? Not getting caught short.

So feel free to act sanctimonious and offended.

I'll continue to prepare for situations like this, I'll take responsibility for myself and my family's needs, and I'll continue to shoot to my hearts content without having to fear running short or having to whine and complain about being taken advantage of.

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Molon Labe!

22lr is the only thing I'm short on and that's because I took possession of my 15-22 just weeks before Sandy Hook, its my only 22lr so I only have 4k.

My only gripe is everyone and their dog becoming resellers without actually following the law. Last I checked you needed a business license and a resellers permit here to become one and I know nobody has one. Apparently they are somehow special. Once you have that I could care less what you charge, hell local range was charging $45/50 for 22lr (yeah that's right 50) and that doesn't bother me(ok I did cringe a little at the thought of 22lr at almost a $1 a pop). Of course I won't buy it, I'll keep reloading for my centerfires as I've own those long enough to build up a buffer.

Just a thought... What if the ammo supply companies see the "Adam Smith style" supply and demand here, and are holding back shipments in order to create a panic? This will increase their sales, and insure sales for as long as the shortage continues. For example, didn't one of the ammo companies send 20 million rounds to a boys/girls foundation during this "shortage?" Seems out of place since they are struggling to keep up with the paying consumer's demand. And it's not that I don't support those kind of donations, because I definitely do.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, just a thought, and wanted you guy's opinions. I'm not convinced of anything, it was merely just a thought. So don't think I'm a crazy lunatic.

Everyone has a pain threshold on prices.$25-30 for a brick of bulk 22 is it for me,hell I was annoyed when it hit $10 and switched to center fire back in the 80s.When it comes back down and I can just walk in the store and buy it I will.Until then Ill shoot up what I have and move on to other things.This silliness isn't permanent folks.

I dont know if its just me, but I feel like a lot of people are feeling offended or attacked by Ammobob's post. The way I read it did not seem to be attacking people for buying a lot of ammo. I think he was more ticked about the nasty business of buying over fellow shooters to make an obscene markup. And I see his point of view. Granted we live in a free country which allows for a lot of shady "legal" business strategies. I for one am looking for .22 ammo, but not just any that come along, looking for my brand and right price. Am I mad someone beats me to walmart every day, no, am I mad its someone who has no intention of using it only to make not a quick buck but 100 times that, a little bit. My hope is that one day there will be so many trucks of ammo going to distribution that will flood the market and have all those scalpers loose tons of cash. It would help if people dont buy at high prices, but if you got the cash and dont want to wait that is your business. For those of you looking for ammo, patience is key, I did not touch .22 ammo until after 4 months of looking. For those of you buying to build your castle of bricks at home, keep buying if you wish. At least invite me to your home range to shoot some . For those of you selling at 1000% retail, legal, but shame on you . This is just my opinion, just like the 2 pages before me. Lets just stop the name calling because you dont agree with other people. Happy shooting, if no ammo, then happy dry fire practice .

I find some of these posts a little strange on a board where I'm pretty sure 99% of the members make above an average income.

If things are that bad sell your $500 10-22 go buy a Mossberg take the difference and buy some shells.

simple economics imo as long as it remains profitable it will continue. when it is not, it will stop. the American way, like it or not.

These discussions need to be in the lounge. It's been said many, many times before. This is a 15-22 thread. It's getting old.

Read post 71 above by major, it's exactly what i'm talking about, he states he has a few k rounds of 22 and all his other calibers also..

Ok.. again .. great and an easy stockpile if you're just going to hoard or sit on it.. a month to month and a half supply for a shooter like me... a two week supply for someone that really shoots allot, feel bad for the cometition shooters out there that don't have an ammo sponsor, you know the ones just starting out or not quite peaked yet.

I've shot over 800 rounds of 9mm alone in May of this year, I have 4 calibers 22, 9, 45, 223/5.56

"sanctimonious and offended" about what??? sour grapes about what?? To what are you referring..?

I picked up 2 bulk packs of 22lr today, if i shoot my normal amount that's maybe 2 weeks worth.

I know ammo came in at Walmart and Sportsman's this week, i know because it's all relisted on Gunlistings.org armslist and both of the facebook iowa guns and ammo groups i'm a member of.

Again the point being, if you shoot little, or not at all it's easy to be covered for situations like this.

"sanctimonious" is exactly whom i'm talking about, you know the ones talking to people like me who have been shooting for 30 yrs like i'm a 12 yr old and should learn a lesson from this. What lesson would that be that i should stockpile 25k of every caliber I own so that i can continue to shoot through a POSSIBLE unforseen future shortage??

If i could afford to do that or wanted to i could pay the prices that are going on gunlistings right now and not worry about it.

I guess i'm just a gulf war vet, ex state trooper, professional firefighter that doesn't take responsibility for myself or my family.....nice

None of my posts were anything about whining, or hatred of capitalism, or any of the other various phrases that have been thrown around by those too lazy to read, or those with reading comprehension issues. My issue was with the ethics simple and period. I have no problem with making money. I simply see that in my opinion there are times when money comes before ethics and that is never good to me.

A real world example. I work with a lot of overseas relief efforts when natural disasters and such strike and people get devastated. There are those who donate time and supplies to get people on their feet, and then there are those who charge average price for the same items. Then there are those who will do things like sell bottles of water to people who are destitute for $5.00 a bottle. There are those who will take anything someone has for a little gas or a blanket. "Say, you came through the situation with that nice gold watch or diamond wedding band you say? And you say you need a few gallons of fuel, and two $20 surplus blankets? But you have no cash? That's a real problem, that watch or that ring aught to cover it nicely...."

And then there are those who will buy up or stand in line, or make multiple efforts to take the free supplies, or the reasonably priced ones, take a majority of the available stock and set up their own stand 2 blocks away and make excessive profit from it.

Now I know it is not a perfect example, but one where I have seen the bad side of things, and people will hide behind, "oh it's just capitalism!"

Capitalism is the greatest system on earth, but it can't be used as an excuse to cover up unethical behavior. (and yes there are people that do the same with food and water, but I used non essential examples as ammo is non essential as well)

So stop the you're whining, or you don't like capitalism, or whatever posts please. You all tell me there is NOTHING in any of what is going on that you don't consider unethical?

I consider GUN SHOPS selling a brick of .22 ammo for $150 unethical. I consider GUN SHOPS buying normal prices at walmart and putting their sticker over it for $80-$150 unethical. The guys doing that are dirtbags plain and simple in my opinion.

But do I blame anyone that my son can't shoot the new rifle he got for his birthday? No, my fault for not stocking .22 ammo. As I said, if you read, it has always been trying to wrap my head around the ethics of gun guys sticking it to gun guys.

This thread is so pointless that it's, well, pointless. Just think of all the ammo you've lost out on while contributing to this thread.

I've read it, liked it, and agree with it.

As I stated, I shoot regularly.

My cashe is well in excess of a few thousand rounds and as I stated, I continue to purchase ammo to offset and replace what I shoot. I haven't paid more than .04 - .05 a round for the vast majority of my stock with the exception of some CCI which averages .06 - .07 around.

By doing so, I can continue to shoot as I please and still have a cushion to fall back on if my ability to acquire ammo was to be interrupted.

I do feel bad for those who failed to prepare for the current situation and are now reduced to having to turn to the secondary market for their needs. Hence the comment to learn from this and be prepared for the next event.

I'm referring to your seemingly taking offense to those who have prepared for situations like this by calling them "hoarders".

You act as though we are to blame for the lack of ammo or the high prices when in truth it's those who failed to prepare and are purchasing on the secondary market that is driving this.

By paying the insanely high prices, it encourages the flippers to continue to buy everything in sight so that they can flip it and make those obscene profits you keep referring to.

Again, you can place blame, whine, and complain about the situation or accept the fact that it's no ones responcibilty but your own to make sure you can continue to partake in the pastime of your choosing.

I'm not rich, far from it. I'm a normal hard working guy married to a disabled Air Force Vet. I like many others here make ammo purchases a priority and work ammo purchases into our budget every month.

Sometimes you have to make a decision and sacrifices have to be made. I have cut back a bit on my time at the range. I limited the number of rounds I shoot. I stagger the caliber I use from one trip to another.

To help increase my purchasing power, I've given up expensive coffee and sports drinks so I can add that money to my ammo budget. It sucks, but it's a choice I've made.

Do what you have to do. Get creative!

I sold the vast majority of my RC car collection to finance many of the purchases I have made. I've narrowed to number of calibers I choose to shoot to make it easier to buy larger quantities of the ones I kept. I have bartered services for ammo, I have traded electronics and other items I own for ammo.

Again, if you are as avid a shooter as you state, then you need to prioritize your finances, take inventory of your belongings, determine what you would be willing to part with and make the neccassary ajustments in your finances to be able to continue to partake in it.

Thank you for your service, it is appreciated.

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Molon Labe!

I agree with the basis of your post AB but everyone has different views of what's ethical. That's why there are so many viewpoints on the matter. Under the general idea of capitalism people have the right to do as they please in regards to supply and demand. You understand that, however, just because someone can doesn't mean they should. That's where morality comes into play and unfortunately we are seeing that the opportunity to make a quick buck supersede ones general good will.

In my 5 months on this board, this may be the most ridiculous thread yet.

I don't.

Around here a guy can drive around to Walmart, Dick's Sporting Goods, Academy, Sportsmans Warehouse... and find very reasonable price stickers on empty shelves. Or, a guy can go to Benton Shooters and find VERY high price stickers on stocked shelves. Benton Shooters is providing a service that others are not. Benton Shooters could lower their prices to $20/brick and be out of ammo in five minutes. So then there would be no one with in stock ammo. That would be great, eh? No.

Well, personally I think these threads are useful because they give guys a place to vent a bit over a situation that none of us like.
Some say the cause of the panic is 'hoarding'. Some say its due to certain government agencies ordering billions of rounds to dry up supply. Some say its both.
Well I have absolutely no idea what the ultimate cause is. No one sends me the marketing reports from the ammo manufacturers or the intel reports from various agencies. IMO anyone saying its one reason or the other like he has the inside scoop, doesnt know what he's talking about - - -unless he can prove otherwise. So those blaming fellow shooter 'hoarders' are pulling that out of thin air without any evidence. Just because you see other shooters buying in stores, doesnt prove that this is the ultimate cause of a situation that many of us never recall being this severe in the past - - - through shootings, elections, etc.

And none of this makes a lick of difference for getting some ammo for ourselves today anyway.

[Here's an additional little mental stretch for some people. Take from it what you will : Back in the 1970s there was a period of severe gasoline shortages and very long gas lines. Now someone could look at those lines and blame the drivers for causing the shortage by always trying to keep their fuel tanks topped off. Someone with a little broader view could say that no, the shortage was caused by the Arabs and their oil embargo. That caused those long lines and rising prices. We only found out years later, that the Arabs were tired of selling their oil for dollars which the US kept printing to finance the Vietnam War and LBJs social programs and general government expansion. The Arabs wanted to sell their oil for other curriencies that hadnt declined in value. Well Kissinger went over to the Middle East and told the Arabs they could go ahead and hike the price of oil to recoup some of their currency losses. Also, since Nixon took the dollar off a gold backing in 1971, the only way to make the dollar 'valuable' was to force other nations to need them to buy oil. The Arabs didnt want to push the prices too high & kill the market, but the Kissinger assured them it wouldnt be opposed by the US government as long as they put their new 'petro dollars' into US Treasuries. When the then Saudi oil minister asked the Shah of Iran why he went along with such outrageously high oil prices, the Shah replied "That's what Dr. Kissinger wants." Kissinger also promised to provide the protective cover of the US military to the Saudi rulers from internal or external threats if they agreed to only price oil in US dollars. Search the work of F. Willliam Engdahl who has done extensive research on this topic, including speaking with that former Saudi oil minister.
There is often more to a situation than we are aware of at the time. It only comes out later, sometimes much later.]

What is even sadder is that I've read it from start to finish ...

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I see nothing useless about it.

It's all open discussion and expression of opinions and views.

We may to all agree on the cause or the cure, but by discussing the topic and expressing our opinions, it helps us all see the other side of the discussion.

I find that valuable.

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Molon Labe!

Pointless....

To all the "hoarders". Would you feel the same way if water was in short supply? Your family had very little water to drink and money was short. Water is expensive. Your neighbor just bought 5,000 gallons to fill his swimming pool. He found a deal at Walmart and bought all they had. Too bad for you. But, thats the free market. Thirsty yet? Oh, it'll get better someday. Ooops! the federal gov't. just bought up 100,000,000,000,000 barrels of water for Homeland Security. It may take a while longer than expected.

Guess they would have to learn to drink beer like me.

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Molon Labe!

You mean like the Stock Market crash of 1929???

Plan to shoot a brick per animal to make sure it doesn't get away.

Good analogy...