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  #1  
Old 06-30-2013, 11:38 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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Range Report & M&P 15-22 "Apples & Oranges Comparison" to my Dedicated .22lr setup Range Report & M&P 15-22 "Apples & Oranges Comparison" to my Dedicated .22lr setup Range Report & M&P 15-22 "Apples & Oranges Comparison" to my Dedicated .22lr setup Range Report & M&P 15-22 "Apples & Oranges Comparison" to my Dedicated .22lr setup Range Report & M&P 15-22 "Apples & Oranges Comparison" to my Dedicated .22lr setup  
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Default Range Report & M&P 15-22 "Apples & Oranges Comparison" to my Dedicated .22lr setup

(2) .22's.

M&P 15-22 (Top), Dedicated .22 (Bottom)

M&P has a 3-9 Nikon Scope.

Dedicated has a Bushnell Red Dot+ 3x Magnifer



Ammo used:



From left to right. SK Ammo, Lightning, Federal, Blazer.

M&P 15-22:

NO FTF/FIRE

Dedicated:

(5) Magazines.
50 Rounds

SK ammo, 10 rounds, 1 FTFire, 1 FTFeed
Lightning, 10 rounds, no issues.
Federal, 10 rounds, no issues.
Blazer, 10 rounds, 1 FTFire.

M&P 15-22



Dedicated:



Note: that there are some flyers here and there because I had to site in both 22's.

So overall, if you can see from the pictures, the M&P 22 is less accurate but a lot more reliable.

The dedicated is more accurate and less reliable.

Anyone think I should switch the optics on the 22s? So, the M&P has the red dot / magnifer and the dedicated has the 3-9 Nikon?

Thanks for viewing!

Last edited by pluke the 2; 07-01-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:52 PM
Lorelei Lorelei is offline
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Swap the optics and redo the comparison. Please post the results.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:25 AM
yzf128r yzf128r is offline
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At what distance were you shooting? Standing or bench rest? I would bet that if you switch optics you will see different results. I would think that whatever rifle has the 3-9 on it will show better accuracy.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:16 AM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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I was shooting at 25 yard line. Bench Rest.
Quote:
I would think that whatever rifle has the 3-9 on it will show better accuracy.
The above test configuration, the M&P 15-22 had the 3-9 scope and it did not perform better. Hopefully i'll swap out the optics and see the difference.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:28 PM
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I'm not sure what the comparison is supposed to mean. The 15-22 is a 3 MOA plinker, no matter how you look at it and the conversions (what you are calling a dedicated .22) vary all over the place from 2 MOA to 5 MOA, depending upon the particular upper. That one is marginally better than the other really means nothing in the real world of shooting.

For a comparison like this to have any more than curiosity value, it needs to be done in a machine rest with identical FCGs to eliminate that variable.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
The 15-22 is a 3 MOA plinker, no matter how you look at it and the conversions (what you are calling a dedicated .22) vary all over the place from 2 MOA to 5 MOA, depending upon the particular upper. .
Curious, but how can you tell that is a conversion and not a dedicated .22 upper? Is it the barrel?
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:44 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
I'm not sure what the comparison is supposed to mean. The 15-22 is a 3 MOA plinker, no matter how you look at it and the conversions (what you are calling a dedicated .22) vary all over the place from 2 MOA to 5 MOA, depending upon the particular upper. That one is marginally better than the other really means nothing in the real world of shooting.

For a comparison like this to have any more than curiosity value, it needs to be done in a machine rest with identical FCGs to eliminate that variable.
my comparison between the two 22's. i understand it's not a real comparison but i was happy with the results. i'm excited to get more comfortable and try better ammo with the m&p to get some experience under my belt. i'd like to see the so called "3 MOA Plinker"
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:01 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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it's not a converted .22 it's a dedicated upper... so i'm not shooting out of an ar-15 1/7" twist barrel but rather a 1/16" twist dedicated for .22lr
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim View Post
Curious, but how can you tell that is a conversion and not a dedicated .22 upper? Is it the barrel?
Poor choice of words ... to me a .22 upper on an AR15 lower IS a conversion.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pluke the 2 View Post
my comparison between the two 22's. i understand it's not a real comparison but i was happy with the results. i'm excited to get more comfortable and try better ammo with the m&p to get some experience under my belt. i'd like to see the so called "3 MOA Plinker"
The typical 15-22 is a 3 MOA gun. Mine does it all the time, as do most of the 15-22s I see at my range. With match ammo, I see sub-3 MOA on a regular basis.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:28 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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The typical 15-22 is a 3 MOA gun. Mine does it all the time, as do most of the 15-22s I see at my range. With match ammo, I see sub-3 MOA on a regular basis.
what is typical moa for the 15-22 using bulk packs or the above ammo i used? and what yard line is 3 MOA at?
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Guy A Guy A is offline
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This is an example of "apples to oranges" comparison, especially since the guns have such different optics. (Still interesting, though!)
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:33 PM
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The typical 15-22 is a 3 MOA gun. Mine does it all the time, as do most of the 15-22s I see at my range. With match ammo, I see sub-3 MOA on a regular basis.
So at 25 yards, 3 MOA would be a 3/4" group... correct? So what grouping did the OP shoot? Looks much greater than 3/4".
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:37 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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there is no way in hell this gun is going to shoot 3/4" group at 25 yards... i know i'm a bad shot but damn, this is with a sled all i had to do is pull the trigger..

which leads me to think something is wrong on all fronts
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:38 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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This is an example of "apples to oranges" comparison, especially since the guns have such different optics. (Still interesting, though!)
apples to oranges thx!
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:41 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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here is something i forgot to mention.

Wind Speed / Gusts: W at 14 mph

how big of a difference does this make at 25yards?
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:51 PM
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what is typical moa for the 15-22 using bulk packs or the above ammo i used? and what yard line is 3 MOA at?
I routinely get 3 MOA with Federal Champion.

Do you understand the concept of MOA? It means Minute of Angle and is independent of distance. The standard definition for 1 MOA is 1.0 inches of dispersion at 100 yards, Therefore 3 MOA at 100 yards is 3.0 inches. At 50 yards it is 1.5 inches. At 200 yards it is 6 inches.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:52 PM
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So at 25 yards, 3 MOA would be a 3/4" group... correct? So what grouping did the OP shoot? Looks much greater than 3/4".
That is correct.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:55 PM
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lol my best group was 5 inches roughly with the m&p 15-22 @ 25 yards. interesting. well i'll have to hit the range again and try federal champion.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:56 PM
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there is no way in hell this gun is going to shoot 3/4" group at 25 yards... i know i'm a bad shot but damn, this is with a sled all i had to do is pull the trigger..

which leads me to think something is wrong on all fronts
Then, my friend, you are a lousy shot!

That said, if you can't get 3/4" groups at 25 yards from a 15-22 in a Lead Sled, then something is either badly wrong with your sled, your rifle or both. I do it with mine all the time without a sled. And I am far from being alone.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:57 PM
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I routinely get 3 MOA with Federal Champion.

Do you understand the concept of MOA? It means Minute of Angle and is independent of distance. The standard definition for 1 MOA is 1.0 inches of dispersion at 100 yards, Therefore 3 MOA at 100 yards is 3.0 inches. At 50 yards it is 1.5 inches. At 200 yards it is 6 inches.
i got the beginning of it now.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:58 PM
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Then, my friend, you are a lousy shot!

That said, if you can't get 3/4" groups at 25 yards from a 15-22 in a Lead Sled, then something is either badly wrong with your sled, your rifle or both. I do it with mine all the time without a sled. And I am far from being alone.
thanks for the compliment or confidence booster.

how does 15mph wind effect your target practice?
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:00 PM
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lol my best group was 5 inches roughly with the m&p 15-22 @ 25 yards. interesting. well i'll have to hit the range again and try federal champion.
Sounds like you have a loose barrel nut, a loose scope mount, a loose fore end or some other mechanical problem.

Not to be insulting, but how much actual shooting experience do you have?

FWIW, my 9 and 14 year old grandsons get essentially the same performance out of their 15-22s that I get out of mine, so it's not a fluke ... just typical.

Last edited by Majorlk; 07-01-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:01 PM
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thanks for the compliment or confidence booster.

how does 15mph wind effect your target practice?
You made no mention of a 15 mph wind. After doping the wind, it should make little, if any, difference.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:03 PM
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lol my best group was 5 inches roughly with the m&p 15-22 @ 25 yards.
Goodness! That is really bad.

My Daisy BB gun shoots better than that... offhand.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:10 PM
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damn. you guys are brutal. very little actual shooting experience. now if you count video games, than i'm a pro. but ya i'm getting "flamed".

i'll blame my lack of shooting experience before the rifles components.

how do i check the barrel nut to see if its loose? I tried twisting the barrel but it didn't appear loose.

I locktighted and made sure that the scope mount and scope are 100% secured.

this was my second time shooting the m&p 15-22 and first time shooting the dedicated .22lr...
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:17 PM
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Here was the set up...

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Old 07-01-2013, 02:18 PM
Lorelei Lorelei is offline
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Wow. I don't see why you're getting flamed like you are. There's no need to be treated like this.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:18 PM
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FWIW, I would expect the dedicated upper to be more accurate, simply due to the more rigid, metal construction.

As others have said, it's an apples to oranges comparison. Might as well compare the dedicated upper to a good bolt action. Makes as much sense, IMHO.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lorelei View Post
Wow. I don't see why you're getting flamed like you are. There's no need to be treated like this.
No one is getting flamed. The OP made a comparison that most of us think makes no sense, and then challenges other shooters accuracy claims when he obviously has no understanding of MOA. He assumes that all 15-22s are shooting like his does when he admits he has very little actual shooting experience with firearms. Video games ... really?

And looking at the photo of the lead sled ... it's on a blanket the ground, not a solid bench. Every time he pulls the trigger, most likely the sled feet shift in the dirt. Invalidates any accuracy measurements.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pluke the 2 View Post
damn. you guys are brutal. very little actual shooting experience. now if you count video games, than i'm a pro. but ya i'm getting "flamed".

i'll blame my lack of shooting experience before the rifles components.

how do i check the barrel nut to see if its loose? I tried twisting the barrel but it didn't appear loose.

I locktighted and made sure that the scope mount and scope are 100% secured.

this was my second time shooting the m&p 15-22 and first time shooting the dedicated .22lr...
After looking at the photo, your testing setup is faulty. Unless it is rock, ground is not hard. The feet of the sled will shift on just about every shot as they settle in the dirt. The blanket just adds to the problem. The sled should be on a solid wooden or concrete bench to have any validity.

You can have a loose barrel nut and not be able to twist the barrel. The barrel fits into a keyway in the upper receiver and is held tight by the nut. It takes a nut wrench to check for tightness, but after seeing the test setup, I doubt a loose barrel is the problem ... inexperience with the firearm, with actual, shooting and a faulty testing setup are the problems.

Shooting, and accuracy, improves with practice. The more you shoot, the better the results will be. Keep at it!

Last edited by Majorlk; 07-01-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:34 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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perfect. thanks major! i'll go back at it this weekend and test fire from a solid platform. ++ i'll be able to work on actual experience.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:39 PM
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perfect. thanks major! i'll go back at it this weekend and test fire from a solid platform. ++ i'll be able to work on actual experience.
Go for it! I'm betting you will be amazed at the difference!
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:55 PM
telero telero is offline
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Originally Posted by pluke the 2 View Post
very little actual shooting experience.
You should attend and Appleseed. You'll get lots of good information. I'd be surprised if someone there couldn't help evaluate the 15-22 as well. If it was shooting poorly you could probably borrow a 10/22 from someone as well to see if the firearm is the problem.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:22 PM
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Wow. I don't see why you're getting flamed like you are. There's no need to be treated like this.
Since when is telling the truth to a novice shooter being flamed? I didn't search him out. He came to a public discussion and that is what we are doing... discussing.

Sorry but I stand by my comments. His best group, not average, was 5" at 25 yards from a bench rest. No matter how you bake it, that is still really bad. So bad, that I don't see how the shooter could do that. I'm with the Major & think something is wrong somewhere... either with the gun or with the rest.

Sure we could all say great job but how would that be helpful? I think now the OP understands the concept of MOA & now understands his groups are way outside what one would expect from a 3 MOA rifle on a bench rest. Now that he knows his rifle should be able to shoot 3/4" groups at that range, not 5"+, he can work toward improvement.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:37 PM
Lorelei Lorelei is offline
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Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
No one is getting flamed. The OP made a comparison that most of us think makes no sense, and then challenges other shooters accuracy claims when he obviously has no understanding of MOA. He assumes that all 15-22s are shooting like his does when he admits he has very little actual shooting experience with firearms. Video games ... really?

And looking at the photo of the lead sled ... it's on a blanket the ground, not a solid bench. Every time he pulls the trigger, most likely the sled feet shift in the dirt. Invalidates any accuracy measurements.
I don't disagree about the OP learning a lot but I thought a couple of the comments were unnecessarily harsh.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:50 PM
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I don't disagree about the OP learning a lot but I thought a couple of the comments were unnecessarily harsh.
I wish you could have had a conversation with my dad. He was a Marine veteran from south Louisiana who signed up before Pearl Harbor. He could dish out harsh with the best of them but I tell you what... I grew up tough with tough skin. I'm afraid this country is getting too soft & too PC.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:55 PM
Lorelei Lorelei is offline
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I wish you could have had a conversation with my dad. He was a Marine veteran from south Louisiana who signed up before Pearl Harbor. He could dish out harsh with the best of them but I tell you what... I grew up tough with tough skin. I'm afraid this country is getting too soft & too PC.
I don't side with political correctness but I do prefer politeness when possible.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:03 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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hey guys no hard feelings. i asked for help and i got it. i'll hit the range back up and hopefully i can correct the issues at hand. thanks again guys.




dont even think about sending your daughters or sons out to show me up either! then i'll be really sad!
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:12 PM
Lorelei Lorelei is offline
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hey guys no hard feelings. i asked for help and i got it. i'll hit the range back up and hopefully i can correct the issues at hand. thanks again guys.




dont even think about sending your daughters or sons out to show me up either! then i'll be really sad!
LOL

Be sure to give us an updated range report.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:19 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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while i'm not experienced with the .22lr i do have some other ar15s and rounds downfield.

here is 100 yard line with red dot and 6x magnifer .223 caliber standing up



the rifle

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Old 07-01-2013, 04:21 PM
pluke the 2 pluke the 2 is offline
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100 yards bi pod setup



20" 223

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Old 07-01-2013, 04:38 PM
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To the OP. Toss the red dot as all they are good for is popping cans from zero to about 25 yards. Work at getting .5 to .75 at 25 yards. When you can hit .5 at 25 yards then start working out to 1 to 2 inches at 100 yards.
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Old 07-01-2013, 05:08 PM
sithlord sithlord is offline
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Originally Posted by PANZER22 View Post
To the OP. Toss the red dot as all they are good for is popping cans from zero to about 25 yards. Work at getting .5 to .75 at 25 yards. When you can hit .5 at 25 yards then start working out to 1 to 2 inches at 100 yards.
Speak for yourself. I shoot 7.5 ounce soda cans from about 100 yards with my 15-22, a 4MOA red/green dot while seated, elbow on table (thus, not quite bench shooting - no bench rest/bipod). Do I hit the can every time? No! But I hit it more often than I miss... I had to go to these cans because clays and bottles were too easy.

My method (since a 4MOA red dot would cover a soda can completely at 100yds) is that the dot isn't zero'd. Instead, I purposely have it off by 4MOA such that when the edge of the dot is touching the target, the target gets hit.

Unfortunately, no pictures to back it up.. handy..

Even if I had pictures, no way to "prove" it's 100 yards.

I'll mod this post once I have pictures... Stay tuned later in the week.
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Old 07-01-2013, 05:35 PM
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I don't disagree about the OP learning a lot but I thought a couple of the comments were unnecessarily harsh.
Well, gee, ain't that too bad.
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  #46  
Old 07-01-2013, 05:39 PM
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I don't side with political correctness but I do prefer politeness when possible.
Well, I have been as polite as possible without gushing all over the place. I just love armchair quarterbacks who contribute nothing to a discussion but feel free to criticize those who do.

Last edited by Majorlk; 07-01-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 07-01-2013, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pluke the 2 View Post
hey guys no hard feelings. i asked for help and i got it. i'll hit the range back up and hopefully i can correct the issues at hand. thanks again guys.




dont even think about sending your daughters or sons out to show me up either! then i'll be really sad!
I can arrange a match with my nine year old grandson, if you like.

Seriously no insults have been intended and thank you for not taking anything that way. I think if you quit messing with the sled and bullseye targets and enjoy shooting at cans, clay birds and such for a while, you and the 15-22 will get along just fine.

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Old 07-01-2013, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PANZER22 View Post
To the OP. Toss the red dot as all they are good for is popping cans from zero to about 25 yards.
Well, I was going to stay out of this thread; until I read this post.

With an EoTech XPS2 on my 15-22, a good bench rest, and sandbag stock stabilizer; I can routinely get 1.5" groups at 50 yards. On a good day, I can keep five shots within an inch. This is with Lapua Match or CCI Sub-Sonic.

With an EoTech and 3X magnifier on the AR I consider to be my SHTF rifle, I can easily get 1" groups at 100 yards with M855 all day long.

One of my favorite range pastimes is using the 15-22 with the EoTech to pop grapefruits at 100 yards. You can get some very interesting results on a grapefruit with CCI Segmented Sub-Sonic. Although I do need the magnifier on the rifle to see the fruit at that distance.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:40 PM
Lorelei Lorelei is offline
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Well, I have been as polite as possible without gushing all over the place. I just love armchair quarterbacks who contribute nothing to a discussion but feel free to criticize those who do.
My contribution was to say that the rude comments weren't necessary to get a point across. Sorry you don't see it that way.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:46 PM
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My contribution was to say that the rude comments weren't necessary to get a point across. Sorry you don't see it that way.
No I don't. The comment had nothing to do with the discussion, it was a busy-body comment. And you seem to be the only one who thought anything was rude. The OP didn't.

End of discussion before Phil has a hissy fit.
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