15-22 Aluminum 80% lower

Phat · #51 02-02-2014, 09:53 PM

Yep send me one Bridgeport is sitting there doing nothing! LOL

Argonnakid · #52 02-03-2014, 11:40 PM

When does the patent run out on something like this? Thinking aftermarket parts and clones. That kind of thing, like a 80% lower.

RussellAthletic · #53 02-04-2014, 12:07 AM

I'd be interested in an aluminum receiver. Maybe something along the lines of the KAC IWS lower? Built in QD etc.

tacticool22 · #54 02-06-2014, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by straightshooter47

Jody, please clarify…are you proposing to market 80% lowers specifically for the 15 22 for the purchaser to complete, or are you offering the machining service to complete an available existing 80% lower to 100% for the S&W 15 22 application?

If it is the first option, go for it, I wish you the best of luck.

If it is the second option, have you considered…

All the 80% lowers I’ve ever seen have the pivot pin holes already drilled, which precludes using a stock S&W 15 22 upper since the front pivot pin hole is lower and farther forward in the S&W 15 22 upper than in a mil-spec AR upper.

Also, the magazine wells are already broached in an 80%, so that means the 15 22 mag will have more “wiggle” room fore and aft since it’s body length is just slightly smaller in the cartridge length direction than a 223 magazine body.

The 80% lowers would be machined to 15-22 specs. Pin holes, mag well, Etc. They are not a direct knock off of an AR-15. But with CNC machine tools, wire EDM, Etc. it does not matter. We can make whatever we want, with whatever look we want.

Brett248Vista - If you do this 80% lower, are you also going to provide a jig that people can buy to
properly locate all the holes and cuts?
Yes

The time it takes to make a 15-22 lower will be pretty much the same as an AR lower, so expect the same higher end pricing.

straightshooter47 · #55 02-06-2014, 08:49 PM

hi Jodie,
that's good to hear...also, instead of "reinventing the wheel" and redoing a S&W compatible bolt stop paddle, touch bases with these guys...
Catch22 Bolt Catches

that way anyone going the 80% lower route can have a totally new lower without reusing theirs, or trying to obtain one from S&W parts.

tacticool22 · #56 02-06-2014, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by straightshooter47

hi Jodie,
that's good to hear...also, instead of "reinventing the wheel" and redoing a S&W compatible bolt stop paddle, touch bases with these guys...
Catch22 Bolt Catches

that way anyone going the 80% lower route can have a totally new lower without reusing theirs, or trying to obtain one from S&W parts.

Thank you for the link.

gdnagle · #57 02-06-2014, 09:38 PM

This will be one way of getting a 15-22P. I'll have to see how my 80% AR lowers work out first then might give one of these a try if there made.

rlowe · #58 02-14-2014, 08:13 AM

I want one, but I'd like one done from a forging.

InBox485 · #59 02-14-2014, 03:09 PM

I would much rather get an aluminum upper first. Cut all the flex problems it has.

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Freeway · #60 03-10-2014, 01:47 AM

I'm really hoping this can become a reality! My idea in an earlier post was the chance to build a 15-22 pistol. A buffer tube could be installed if that area was threaded (or folding stocks, etc). It would be really nice if there was also an upper to go with it. 15-22 pistols can be a little hard to find anymore.

Regarding the flex, it seems that polymer lowers have a problem around the buffer tube attachment area. There is an article at TTAG that reviews the MEAN Hybrid 15 which has a polymer lower with an aluminum reinforcement in the buffer tube area. Sounds like a neat improvement.

Gun Review: MEAN Hybrid-15 | The Truth About Guns

If this 80% 15-22 lower becomes a reality, I'll be sending money!

(Someone else asked about a jig... hope one will be available.

sound wave · #61 03-10-2014, 03:48 AM

I would be interested in an aluminum lower just so that I could put an A2 buttstock on it.

However, I wouldn't be able to buy the lower because I don't have the skill to complete the last 20%.

Like it was mentioned earlier, I know people have hacked off the "buffer tube" and glued on the A2 buttstock, but I wouldn't want to go that route.

So basically.... I would be more interested in a modified A2 buttstock that can go on the existing 15-22 buffer tube.

InBox485 · #62 03-10-2014, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sound wave

I would be interested in an aluminum lower just so that I could put an A2 buttstock on it.

However, I wouldn't be able to buy the lower because I don't have the skill to complete the last 20%.

Like it was mentioned earlier, I know people have hacked off the "buffer tube" and glued on the A2 buttstock, but I wouldn't want to go that route.

So basically.... I would be more interested in a modified A2 buttstock that can go on the existing 15-22 buffer tube.

I'm pretty sure you could cut the tube off and tap the hole for a standard buffer tube.

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sound wave · #63 03-10-2014, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InBox485

I'm pretty sure you could cut the tube off and tap the hole for a standard buffer tube.

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Yeah but I don't know how well it would turn out if I did it though. Since I have two uppers, I would like to be able to swap back and forth between the collapsable and fixed buttstocks.

The fixed buttstock would have to be sturdy but still be able to be easily removed.

photoracer · #64 03-13-2014, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacticool22

Would anybody be interested in an Aluminum 80% lower for the 15-22?
Standard AR width or 15-22 width?
What would you like on it?
Push button sling swivels?
Standard buffer tube threads?
Folding stock option?
Standard or oversize trigger guard?
They would be as machined and not anodized so the finishing options are limitless.
Your input will be used for the final decision.

What the 15-22 needs is an alloy upper not a lower. A lower will have little effect on accuracy but an upper definitle would.

Orgone1 · #65 03-18-2014, 02:54 AM

I would not touch 80% lowers given what the ATF did over the weekend. Be very careful.

BREAKING: Ares Armor Raided by ATF | The Truth About Guns

tacticool22 · #66 03-18-2014, 03:05 AM

That's a great point.

telero · #67 03-18-2014, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orgone1

I would not touch 80% lowers given what the ATF did over the weekend. Be very careful.

BREAKING: Ares Armor Raided by ATF | The Truth About Guns

That had nothing to do with metal lowers. ATF claims that EP Armory made 100% polymer lowers (legal firearms), then filled in the parts that would normally be required to be milled out on an 80%. If this is true, you can't revert a firearm to 80% after already being 100% complete.

EP claims they made the core that needs to be milled out, then molded the lower around it, so that it was never 100% complete.

ATF actually has some pretty smart tech guys, so if they examined one of the lowers and found evidence that it didn't work this way, or that it wouldn't be feasible to do so, I can see why they are taking action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacticool22

That's a great point.

Don't worry about it if you're following the rules.

UncaGrunny · #68 03-18-2014, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telero

That had nothing to do with metal lowers. ATF claims that EP Armory made 100% polymer lowers (legal firearms), then filled in the parts that would normally be required to be milled out on an 80%. If this is true, you can't revert a firearm to 80% after already being 100% complete.

EP claims they made the core that needs to be milled out, then molded the lower around it, so that it was never 100% complete.

ATF actually has some pretty smart tech guys, so if they examined one of the lowers and found evidence that it didn't work this way, or that it wouldn't be feasible to do so, I can see why they are taking action.

Don't worry about it if you're following the rules.

Fact is, I see it just the opposite:

The fact that the "rules" have become so arbitrary, pointless, and Byzantine that someone's literal livelihood and freedom can revolve around the order of steps taken in a manufacturing process, rather than the legality of the delivered product itself, tells me that I should indeed "worry about it" even if I follow the rules - - because the rules are both nonsensical and open to interpretation by those enforcing them.

Especially so, if those enforcers themselves don't feel compelled to comply with with the law; e.g., a court order.

InBox485 · #69 03-18-2014, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncaGrunny

Fact is, I see it just the opposite:

The fact that the "rules" have become so arbitrary, pointless, and Byzantine that someone's literal livelihood and freedom can revolve around the order of steps taken in a manufacturing process, rather than the legality of the delivered product itself, tells me that I should indeed "worry about it" even if I follow the rules - - because the rules are both nonsensical and open to interpretation by those enforcing them.

Byzantine sure, but they are following a consistent legal interpretation that a firearm cannot be converted to an 80% by filling in voids. This is an argument over fact that EPL is and was aware of. Who was right will come out in court. If EPL gets hosed and screwed in the process... well I recall telling them that karma's a b****.

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UncaGrunny · #70 03-18-2014, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InBox485

If EPL gets hosed and screwed in the process... well I recall telling them that karma's a b****.

I don't know EPL from Adam's off ox; they could be angels or devils far as I know... but seeing as the ATF was demanding customer lists, it would kinda suck to be one of their innocent customers when that karma bill you're wishing on EPL comes due, wouldn't it?

"Right and wrong" never comes out of a court case like this, only "orthodox" or "heterodox" with regard to the prevailing interpretation of the regulatory entrails.

Lot of innocent people stand to have their lives impacted thereby. For no good purpose.

telero · #71 03-18-2014, 04:19 PM

If it comes out that the manufacturing process was to create a firearm which was then sold as an 80%, it's likely that the innocent customers that bought them will be required to turn in the receivers. The customers won't likely be in any trouble since they would have been victims of Ares/EP deception. Most they would be out is the money they spent, which they may be able to reclaim from Ares/EP.

InBox485 · #72 03-18-2014, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telero

If it comes out that the manufacturing process was to create a firearm which was then sold as an 80%, it's likely that the innocent customers that bought them will be required to turn in the receivers. The customers won't likely be in any trouble since they would have been victims of Ares/EP deception. Most they would be out is the money they spent, which they may be able to reclaim from Ares/EP.

EP is a bunch of frauds. Tons of us got defect after defect and never got promised refunds. If ATF wants mine it was shredded and sent to the local landfill.

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UncaGrunny · #73 03-18-2014, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InBox485

EP is a bunch of frauds. Tons of us got defect after defect and never got promised refunds. If ATF wants mine it was shredded and sent to the local landfill.

Good luck proving that, if they come knocking on your door with a warrant to recover it.

Considering even a judges' order apparently didn't restrain them in this case, what do you suppose the odds are they'll just take your word for that, as opposed to wanting to crawl through your gun safe and hard drive just to 'make sure?'

There's a reason that old Chinese curse ended with "....And may people in high places take notice of you."

We all living in interesting times already. Time to be careful what we wish for.

InBox485 · #74 03-18-2014, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncaGrunny

Good luck proving that, if they come knocking on your door with a warrant to recover it.

Considering even a judges' order apparently didn't restrain them in this case, what do you suppose the odds are they'll just take your word for that, as opposed to wanting to crawl through your gun safe and hard drive just to 'make sure?'

There's a reason that old Chinese curse ended with "....And may people in high places take notice of you."

We all living in interesting times already. Time to be careful what we wish for.

Sorry, it just occurred to me how off topic this is so I'll leave it at this. I won't be alone empty handed. The vast majority of these were horribly out of spec and full of voids. A lot of people went through returns and finally just threw them away.

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UncaGrunny · #75 03-20-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InBox485

A lot of people went through returns and finally just threw them away.

But if they turn out to be adjudicated to be 'legal firearms,' that's a crime in California, possibly other places: Improperly securing a legal firearm you are responsible for can be a felony if it ends up used in a crime or harming a child.

Especially if it's an 'assault weapon'.

"Consistent legal theory" is a triple oxymoron, IMHO.

photoracer · #76 03-25-2014, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcatt51

That's fine, your gun, your call, but as long as S&W's patents are in place (know when they expire?) it seems we're pretty much dead ended. You can't even reasonably get an aftermarket barrel. I would like to have a light weight barrel. We're stuck. The other thing becomes cost. By the time you're done "mimicking" you could could have had the "real" AR you're mimicking.

Don't misunderstand, I like my 15-22, but it's for Ruger (now NSSF) Rimfire Challenge. I could have built a 10-22 but the 15-22 seems to run more reliably, fewer magazine/feeding issues.

So, am I "interested in an Aluminum 80% lower"? Not really.

Lothar Walther will build you a barrel if you have the money as they did for Jerry Miculek.
And I agree. I beat my head against the wall with a Rem 597 in 2010 before buying my first 15-22 just before the 2011 Ruger Rimfire WC. Started with a PC model because I could get it faster but later bought a regular one and customized it so I would have one that was not as picky on ammo as the PC's match chamber. Shooting 3 regionals and the 2014 NSSF WC again this year. Plus club matches in my part of the country and the new Steel Challenge rimfire rifle division.

jsha22lr · #77 04-10-2014, 01:23 PM

I'd be very interest in a aluminum lower just for the added strength near the pistol grip. The thread on my lower for the pistol grip got stripped out and wouldn't hold the screw in.

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tacticool22 · #78 04-10-2014, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsha22lr

I'd be very interest in a aluminum lower just for the added strength near the pistol grip. The thread on my lower for the pistol grip got stripped out and wouldn't hold the screw in.

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Get a helicoil set to fix the problem. Or go to a gunsmith that knows how to install them.

trebor127 · #79 04-10-2014, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacticool22

Get a helicoil set to fix the problem. Or go to a gunsmith that knows how to install them.

you can't do better than the stainless steel Helicoils

i have sets ranging from 3mm up to 10mm

keith

InBox485 · #80 04-10-2014, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncaGrunny

But if they turn out to be adjudicated to be 'legal firearms,' that's a crime in California, possibly other places: Improperly securing a legal firearm you are responsible for can be a felony if it ends up used in a crime or harming a child.

Especially if it's an 'assault weapon'.

"Consistent legal theory" is a triple oxymoron, IMHO.

That's not how that works as far as the potential rule change is concerned, and putting a broken striped lower in the trash can't lead to any harm if it is broken.

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photoracer · #81 04-11-2014, 02:52 AM

My problem with the alloy lower is why? About the only thing I could see it doing is letting us use regular AR stocks and buffer tubes. An alloy upper however would actually stiffen the 15-22 up and improve accuracy. That is my opinion anyway.

Plumbago · #82 04-12-2014, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photoracer

My problem with the alloy lower is why? About the only thing I could see it doing is letting us use regular AR stocks and buffer tubes. An alloy upper however would actually stiffen the 15-22 up and improve accuracy. That is my opinion anyway.

Or you could just buy a Sig 522 and have it "all" with a factory alloy upper !