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Old 03-28-2014, 08:20 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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I am looking for opinions. I have the stock iron sights which are not flip up sights. I know that I will be getting a dot sight though not sure when and what yet. Would it make sense to buy a set of Magpul flip up sights to use also? Negatives/positives? I like the idea of being able to flip the Magpul sights up and down when using or not using the dot sight. I also like the look of the Magpul sights. Would this make sense or not? Ideas, etc. welcome.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:32 PM
Jeffro57 Jeffro57 is offline
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It makes sense to me. I enjoy having the option.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:39 PM
Jiminator Jiminator is offline
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Makes sense to me too! Just did the exact same thing on mine. Replaced the stock irons with the Magpul's. They are nice and also lighter than the irons. Just saw a post in the classified section a couple days ago for a set for sale. Check it out as they may still bs available.
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:12 PM
rusty47 rusty47 is offline
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I have the Magpul flip ups with a red dot and love the setup.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:23 PM
micocyco micocyco is offline
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I to have red dot & flip ups. But I could not see spending a hundred for MP for something to have just in case the dot stops working. I got an off brand set of flip ups for a little less than 1/4 of what the magpul cost. They work just fine , co wetness is good & stays.
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Old 03-28-2014, 11:07 PM
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The magpul sights make sense in that they are a pretty good fit, being light weight polymer sights on a light weight polymer rifle. The only hang up might be the cost. If you are good with the price, there really isn't a good reason not to.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:00 AM
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I prefer the fixed sights over the Magpul. Actually took the Magpuls off my .22lr upper and swapped my son for his fixed sights.

I like being able to adjust elevation at the rear sight for known distance. For example, I sighted mine in at 25y with the rear drum set to Z (three clicks up from the bottom). Then when I move down to the 50 yard line, I turn the drum 3 clicks to the 5/3 setting and I am on target again. Then for 100 yards, I can turn the drum past the Z setting so that I can make hits at that range as well.

I also prefer the round peep ring of the fixed sight vs. the flat top of the Magpul. It shouldn't matter, but for some reason I struggle with the Magpul site picture.
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:29 AM
headcase650 headcase650 is offline
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The MBUS2's have a round peep, small hole and large.
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:45 AM
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I like FAB Defense Backup Sights RBS & FBS - polymer, very low profile, ambidextrous, Made in Israel not China. Cost about $70 for front and back --- FAB Defense Backup Sights RBS & FBS | 7.62 Precision Custom Firearm Finishes

I love this on my 300 Blackout http://www.primaryarms.com/Command-A...aa-ffs-frs.htm



PS: DO not buy P.T.S. Magpul. PTS products are designed for Airsoft.

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Old 03-29-2014, 08:05 AM
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The MBUS2's have a round peep, small hole and large.
The hole is round, but the outer edge on top is not, it is flat. I don't know why, but that bugs me. I prefer the A2 type of sight, or a Matech.

Jessica, sight types are individual preference. No one will fault you for changing out sights. The only negative for most people is cost.

Last edited by cyphertext; 03-29-2014 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:48 PM
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I am currently running the Troy BUIS with the "M&P" logo on my 15-22. Looks pretty sweet. Even if you don't use them, they add a nice custom touch. Mine have a different style front sight though.

Here is an ad I found on ebay:Troy Industries Folding Battle Sights Used Smith Wesson Branded M P Tactical | eBay
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:13 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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I am leaning toward a Bushnell Trophy red dot but I'm not sure how this could work with my vision. I wear "coke bottle" glasses and my eyes work independently and not with each other. Could this dot be used with just one eye?
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:28 PM
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Could this dot be used with just one eye?
It could, but that is not the most efficient way to use the red dot.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:59 PM
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I have backup Irons on my work rifle because I NEED them if my optic fails. On my 15-22 I did not put any on because realistically if the batteries fail I will replace them. If I want to shoot irons I guess I could throw the stock sights back on.

Its a matter of preference really. If you really think you will use them go ahead. If they are only going to be on there to look cool you may want to consider spening your money else where.

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Old 03-29-2014, 03:46 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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I think it is between the Bushnell red dot vs. Primary Arms micro dot w/Magpul MBUS sights. Are there any negatives of the Bushnell and Primary Arms micro dot?

How big of a riser for the Bushnell?

Last edited by JessicaB; 03-29-2014 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 03-29-2014, 07:26 PM
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I think it is between the Bushnell red dot vs. Primary Arms micro dot w/Magpul MBUS sights. Are there any negatives of the Bushnell and Primary Arms micro dot?

How big of a riser for the Bushnell?
Negatives compared to what? The Bushnell TR-25 is a good, budget red dot. As far as riser, depends on if you want absolute co-witness or lower 1/3rd. They also now sell a TRS-25 with a high mount base that provides it with the proper height for co-witnessing but I don't know if it is absolute or lower 1/3.

Last edited by cyphertext; 03-29-2014 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 03-29-2014, 07:29 PM
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On both of them, the light emitter kind of gets in the way with a lower 1/3 co-witness. I guess that is my biggest gripe with them compared to the Aimpoint T1/H1. Also, they have a green tint to the glass that the Aimpoints don't have. Not that big a deal for the price.

look on Youtube. both are decent red dots for the money. The Primary Arms dot is more versatile due to the model with the removable base.

Also, since the Primary Arms more closely resembles the Aimpoint, with a bit of modification, I was able to use the TangoDown cover which includes integrated lens caps. iO Cover for Aimpoint T-1 iO-001 | Tango Down

Otherwise, I have both and they seem comparable to each other as far as quality goes. Personally, on an AR platform, I would prefer the Primary Arms. Plus they have a good reputation for customer service.

As far as the riser height, it would depend if you want absolute or lower 1/3 co-witness.
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Old 03-29-2014, 08:56 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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Negatives compared to what? The Bushnell TR-25 is a good, budget red dot. As far as riser, depends on if you want absolute co-witness or lower 1/3rd. They also now sell a TRS-25 with a high mount base that provides it with the proper height for co-witnessing but I don't know if it is absolute or lower 1/3.
What is the difference between 1/3rd versus absolute co-witness? What would the riser height be for each?
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:38 PM
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Difference between absolute and co-witness, plus how to establish what size riser you need was recently covered here.

Help
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Old 03-30-2014, 03:00 AM
headcase650 headcase650 is offline
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The newest versions of the PA micro moved the emitter to the 4 o'clock position to help with 1/3 co witness.
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Old 03-30-2014, 03:20 AM
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The newest versions of the PA micro moved the emitter to the 4 o'clock position to help with 1/3 co witness.
Oh yeah, I read that it is now at the 4:30 instead of the 5:00. Have you by chance had the opportunity to compare the two? Does it make much of a difference?
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Old 03-30-2014, 04:51 AM
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What is the difference between 1/3rd versus absolute co-witness? What would the riser height be for each?
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Old 03-30-2014, 05:09 AM
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What is the difference between 1/3rd versus absolute co-witness? What would the riser height be for each?
Co-witnessing means both iron sights and the red dot sight are visible when aiming down the rifle. It means that both sights "witness" the target, hence "co-witness". Absolute co-witness means the dot lines up perfectly with the iron sights when looking through the red dot sight. Lower 1/3 co-witness means the red dot sight is mounted slightly higher, with the iron sights only visible in the lower 1/3 of the view through the red dot sight. Illustrated below.

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Old 03-30-2014, 08:16 AM
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I am leaning toward a Bushnell Trophy red dot but I'm not sure how this could work with my vision. I wear "coke bottle" glasses and my eyes work independently and not with each other. Could this dot be used with just one eye?
Have you used or looked through a 1x red dot?

I'll proceed as if you have not. Go to a gun store and look through a couple. An EOTech with a small 1moa dot and something else with a 3-5moa dot will give you a good idea. Use your long distance corrective eyewear and look at something as far away in the store as you can or ask to look at it outside. Do not try to focus on the dot but rather what you are viewing through the optic. Or maybe see different optics at your gun range...

Using one eye with a red dot is ok. You just don't get unlimited field of view with one eye closed but considering your eyes the overriding factor is that you're comfortable and enjoy shooting. You may find that your eyes don't agree with a 1x red dot and it's a blurry streaking cluster of grapes mess. If so, there are low power 1-4x scopes with side focus that may be worth considering and forget the irons.
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Old 03-30-2014, 01:35 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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It sounds like I should possibly look at scopes also. What are examples of low power 1-4x scopes? I have looked through a scope that a family member had and I had a really difficult time with that.

It also sounds like I want 1/3 co-witness. I'm really not comfortable getting a primary arms dot because from what I can tell they are not shockproof. If I were to get a PA dot it would probably be the fixed base micro dot, MD-06L removable base or micro dot classic w/removable base. Everything else looks really too heavy. Pros/cons of those three dots?

Last edited by JessicaB; 03-30-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 03-30-2014, 05:01 PM
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Primary arms are gtg, they can take a beating. The problem with red dots is if you have astigmatism in your right eye they will look funny, grapes, squiggly for example. Reflex or holosights dont suffer the same problems. I had a pretty bad astigmatism before lasik. Most red dots the dot looked fuzzy not a sharp round dot. I had a bushnell holosight and it looked perfect. Although true reflex holographic sights are usually more expensive. Eotech, trijicon makes a few. Used first or secong gen Bushnell holosights can be found for good prices these days and are actually pretty good sights.
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Old 03-30-2014, 05:22 PM
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Primary arms are gtg, they can take a beating. The problem with red dots is if you have astigmatism in your right eye they will look funny, grapes, squiggly for example. Reflex or holosights dont suffer the same problems. I had a pretty bad astigmatism before lasik. Most red dots the dot looked fuzzy not a sharp round dot. I had a bushnell holosight and it looked perfect. Although true reflex holographic sights are usually more expensive. Eotech, trijicon makes a few. Used first or secong gen Bushnell holosights can be found for good prices these days and are actually pretty good sights.
Will they look like that even though I have corrective glasses?
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Old 03-30-2014, 05:55 PM
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Depends on how bad your astigmatism is and how well its corrected with your glasses. I would look through some first before buying. When you do have them mounted to a rifle and shoulder it. When I would pick up a sight and just look through it its would look okay with glasses but just just having the sight in my hand was misleading because I was looking straight through my glasses. Having it on the rifle with your cheek on the stock you'll be looking through your glasses at an angle and will get a different result. Just make sure you look through some before you buy.
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Old 03-30-2014, 06:16 PM
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Sounds like something I will have to do. I don't know if I can look through one on a rifle itself though. I'm pretty sure I want the Primary Arms micro dot MD60L and Magpul flip up sights at 1/3rd co-witness. Not sure as to what riser I want though.
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Old 03-30-2014, 08:39 PM
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The MD-08 is the newest version, its only 10 more and comes with the killflash. Can bundle it with the AD QD mount.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-...1-10bundle.htm
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Old 03-30-2014, 09:03 PM
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I
I'm really not comfortable getting a primary arms dot because from what I can tell they are not shockproof.
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.  I'm pretty sure I want the Primary Arms micro dot MD60L and Magpul flip up sights at 1/3rd co-witness. Not sure as to what riser I want though.

Primary Arms Micro Dot Gen 3 Toss/Drop Fun - YouTube

Get the removable base md06. If you want lower 1/3 get the inexpensive PA riser and don't play with the QD cuz it's junk. Forget the kill flash.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-30-2014 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 03-30-2014, 09:54 PM
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Primary Arms Micro Dot Gen 3 Toss/Drop Fun - YouTube

Get the removable base md06. If you want lower 1/3 get the inexpensive PA riser and don't play with the QD cuz it's junk. Forget the kill flash.
That will be the plan. Only worry is how my eyes will work with the red dot. I am hopefully going be looking at some red dots next Saturday but probably not any PAs. It won't be a PA but hopefully it will be similar. If the only issue is a blurry dot maybe it is something I could learn to deal with?
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:27 PM
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When you go Saturday to see if your vision agrees with a 1x red dot, don't worry about brand. What you want to test is different size dots. You should definitely take a look at the smallest dot, 1moa, and that will be on an EOTech. And see some some 3-5moa size dots. The PA Microdot is 3moa. Be sure to be wearing your long distance glasses. My guess is you'll probably prefer a 1-4x scope. Happy optics hunting.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:27 AM
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The eotech will not give the same results as a red dot. Look through one and consider buying one but don't use the results of the eotech to judge how your eyes will see a red dot, they are two different technologies. Eotech is a holographic sight, it projects lasers off a mirror onto a reticule etched holographic lens sandwiched between glass in the sight window that projects the reticule out in mid air in front of your view as if it was floating. Red dots don't work the same and use an emitter in a tube, light goes from the emitter to the lens to your eye. With my astigmatism an eotech looked perfect with or without corrective lenses, red dots looked fuzzy without my glasses or when looking through my glasses at an angle.

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Old 03-31-2014, 04:13 AM
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buy once buy the best

EoTech

Keith
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:17 AM
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When you go Saturday to see if your vision agrees with a 1x red dot, don't worry about brand. What you want to test is different size dots. You should definitely take a look at the smallest dot, 1moa, and that will be on an EOTech. And see some some 3-5moa size dots. The PA Microdot is 3moa. Be sure to be wearing your long distance glasses. My guess is you'll probably prefer a 1-4x scope. Happy optics hunting.
As far as the scope what brand should I look for or can I get one with the PA red dot? I have single lenses so no bifocals. Would that make a difference? I see a PA magnifier so would that be what I want?

Last edited by JessicaB; 03-31-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:32 PM
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As far as the scope what brand should I look for or can I get one with the PA red dot? I have a single lens so no bifocals. Would that make a difference?
There are so many out there with tons of different reticles from illuminated to simple crosshairs it's difficult to recommend. If I wanted a 1-4x I would stay in the $200 and up category.

I'm not an eye expert I can only tell you what I hear folks complain about most often. And folks with eye issues tend to complain a lot about 1x red dot.... everything from comet tails to a clusters of grapes. You'll have to see for yourself.

--------------------------------

And by the way, here's what the EOTech manufacturer has to say about astigmatisms and eye issues with their sight. Also notice the comments about the size of the dot. As suggested earlier, take a look at different size dots.

Product FAQs

Why is my center dot not round?

Not everyone sees the center dot as a circle or sphere. If your dot does not appear to be perfectly round, the distortion may be caused by the way that your eye perceives the dot, rather than by some mechanical defect. Due to differences in the lenses in different individuals' eyes, round objects that subtend areas near 3 minutes of angle may appear distorted in a variety of ways depending on the individual and other environmental influences. Some may see the center dot like a hub of a bicycle wheel with spokes. If you see this in your sight, look closely at the dot and rotate the sight. If the spokes do not move, it is just how your eye perceives this dot. You can dim the sight and this may be eliminated.

My circle is fuzzy/hazy. Why is this?

That question about our reticle is common. What people usually see on-line or in advertisements are graphic representations of the reticle. What you are seeing is likely normal. The outer circle of the reticle is made up of hundreds of pixels (small dots that form together to make a larger image). This pixilation is key to being able to see the hologram properly, and is inherent in the technology. You should see the center dot as a single MOA.
A couple things might help make the image appear more distinct:

• If you see the image blurry, fuzzy, distorted, having a double image, or having a 'starburst' effect, this usually means the brightness intensity level is up too high for the lighting conditions you're using it in. Dim down the brightness until the reticle is slightly see-through. The outer circle is designed as your reference to center, and acts similar to a ghost ring.

• The reticle is projected out to your target plane. If you pick up a target that is very close (like a photo on the wall), your eyes might not focus properly on the image. Pick up sight pictures 25 to 30 yards out until you become accustomed to the sight. Try them at different eye reliefs, and certainly try these things once the sight is mounted on a weapon.

• If you require corrective lenses (glasses or contacts) to see things clearly at a distance, you will need them to see the reticle clearly. Remember, the reticle is actually projected out to your target plane, so you will see it like anything else at that distance. Also, if you have astigmatism or use bifocals, you may see the image less distinctly.

• Use the sight outdoors, and if possible at the range. Actually acquiring targets with the sight will help your eyes focus properly on the reticle.


Product FAQs | L-3 EOTech - Holographic Weapons Systems

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 03-31-2014 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:46 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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Ahhh, I get it now. Okay now what would be the difference between a PA magnifier versus a riflescope if that's what I need? Riflescope or something else?
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:11 PM
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Ahhh, I get it now. Okay now what would be the difference between a PA magnifier versus a riflescope if that's what I need? Riflescope or something else?
I'd pass on the magnifier.

These style optics are popular for low power fixed compact and variable magnification on AR platforms. There are a lot optics that fall into these two basic categories (many appear near identical) from various manufactures and sellers. Here are two that Burris offers with the AR in mind. Primary Arms also makes two optics similar to the below.

Another consideration is weight. A 1x red dot can weigh just a few ounces... but once you get into magnified optics you're looking at adding considerable more weight to your rifle.

1-4x Variable


3x Fixed Compact

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Old 03-31-2014, 01:29 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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Holy cow. Cannot afford something that expensive! Any around $100-$150 or so?
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:46 PM
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Holy cow. Cannot afford something that expensive! Any around $100-$150 or so?
You need to do some looking around... Bushnell, Nikon, Millet, Primary Arms and others all make budget friendly optics. Names that I would be hesitant to buy are UTG, Leapers, Barska, BSA, Sightmark, NcStar (although some folks report good service from NcStar you really have to know what you're buying). If I was buying strictly on price and wanted the least worry (not going to break on day 1) I'd say Primary Arms is a good bet. Enjoy the hunt.

This should get you started but by no means is all that is out there.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Rifle-Scopes-s/911.htm

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Old 03-31-2014, 02:21 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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Is a red dot the same as a red dot riflescope or do I need to look for just a riflescope?
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:58 PM
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Is a red dot the same as a red dot riflescope or do I need to look for just a riflescope?
Not sure what you are asking.

There are 1x red dots, and then there are magnified optics with etched glass illuminated reticles that sometimes have a dot in the center of the crosshair and all sorts of other reticle configurations. I think you need to get to a gun show, gun shop, big box retailer gun department, as well as visit a range and strike up conversation with other shooters and they'll show you what they got. You got to look through some optics.
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:08 PM
JessicaB JessicaB is offline
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The one I was looking at was the Cortex Strikefire red dot scope although I think it is discontinued or the same as a red dot. Anyway, I won't know how the dot looks until I look at 'em. I'm hoping that the sight picture will be tolerable and somewhat easy to see. I guess that's the best case scenario.
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:55 PM
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I personally like the Chevron Reticle as I believe it offers the best of both worlds, the problem is finding a optic that has one. But as the example below shows, It is very large which makes it easy to pick up, but you also have the fine point which you can use for more precision. It also offers you some ranging benefits in the width of the outside and inside of the Chevron corresponding to the width of a mans torso as a particular range. This is from the Trijicon Tripower which is what I have on my 15-22.

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Old 03-31-2014, 08:55 PM
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That Trijicon is cool but I doubt there are many people that can justify spending the same on optics as they did on the rifle itself. I know some do, but considering the effective range of the 15-22 and the distance I'll be shooting the majority of the time...my TRS-25 works just fine. It's light, clear, and less than $100 w/ the mount.
I have a slight astigmatism and wear progressive bifocals. Works fine for me.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:06 PM
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i have the Leupold Delta Point on mine. its small, light weight, and a great investment i can always re-sell(with high resale value) or save and transfer into any other platform.
compared to my aimpoint mico h1 - its light years away, but the DP is simple. i pick up the weapon and the sensor turns on. i put it down, and it turns off in 5 mins.

optics are like tires. you dont want to buy a new car, a nice car, and mount the cheapest tires out there. the optic should match the rifle, and rifles' duty. i never understood those guys who have a $1000+ rifle and mount a $75 optic. its the equivalence of a New BMW 550i with toyota corolla rims/tires.

my advice: if you cant afford a good quality red-dot optic (aimpoint, eotech, Leupold) then just use irons while you save up your money. not only will you become very proficient in irons, but you'll eventually get a great optic. you will thank me later.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
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The one I was looking at was the Cortex Strikefire red dot scope although I think it is discontinued or the same as a red dot. Anyway, I won't know how the dot looks until I look at 'em. I'm hoping that the sight picture will be tolerable and somewhat easy to see. I guess that's the best case scenario.
The strikefire is discontinued, because vortex released a new version - the strikefire II. Right now prices on the original are super low as sellers blow them out and get in the new ones.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:45 AM
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If there is a Cabellas by you, go there. They have a large selection, draw a number, when they call it tell them you want to look through scopes, red dot and magnified. If they are not swamped they will spent plenty of time with you.They have dummy guns you can mount the sight on and look through it just as if you were using it. They should have some bushnells, vortex, redfields and a few other red dots and a pretty big selection of magnified optics and maybe some eotechs too.
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Old 04-01-2014, 04:01 AM
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Regarding the astigmatism/red-dot bunch of grapes issue, I've had corneal grafts in both eyes, and have had a fair deal of corneal scaring in my time, causing all manner of flaring when looking at dots

Touch-wood, it's pretty much okay now, and I'm a happy user of Eotech XPS2-0's on a couple of my rifles. I always have the dot brightness set as low as possible (easier on an indoor range, out of bright sunlight). Up close (10m or so), in speedy competitions, the flaring isn't much of a problem as the target/sight picture is pretty big anyway. Further out, I simply flip up my rear MBUS and have an absolute co-witness aligning peep hole which nicely sharpens up the dot. For distance, I also have an Eo G33 magnifier which is crystal clear with the XPS circle/dot. Only need one magnifier as it easily QD's off one and onto the other (I keep the same top-rail setup between my 15-22 and 9mm carbine).
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