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Old 09-18-2014, 09:55 AM
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My 15-22 now has 2 ATF forms that I am required to always have with the weapon/suppressor... a form 1 for the SBR & the form 4 for the suppressor. I keep a reduced copy of the forms in the vertical grip of the gun plus keep reduced copies in my wallet. I keep full size copies in my truck, range bag, and at the house.

Now I am waiting on similar forms for my 300 blackout and this makes me wonder. Is there a requirement to keep a copy of the backside of the form? Right now I keep just the front page of each along with a copy of the corporate report, showing officers who can use the items.

Also I keep a jpg of each form in an album in the picture section of my iphone. Am I correct in saying that works the same as having a paper copy?
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:59 AM
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My 15-22 now has 2 ATF forms that I am required to always have with the weapon/suppressor... a form 1 for the SBR & the form 4 for the suppressor. I keep a reduced copy of the forms in the vertical grip of the gun plus keep reduced copies in my wallet. I keep full size copies in my truck, range bag, and at the house.

Now I am waiting on similar forms for my 300 blackout and this makes me wonder. Is there a requirement to keep a copy of the backside of the form? Right now I keep just the front page of each along with a copy of the corporate report, showing officers who can use the items.

Also I keep a jpg of each form in an album in the picture section of my iphone. Am I correct in saying that works the same as having a paper copy?
I keep only electronic copies with me when away from the house. My forms were sent to me electronically from the ATF, so that's how they will stay. I just download the PDFs to dropbox.
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:16 AM
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I keep only electronic copies with me when away from the house. My forms were sent to me electronically from the ATF, so that's how they will stay. I just download the PDFs to dropbox.
So if you are out shooting somewhere without internet access, what would you do if required to show your forms?
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:36 AM
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I don't believe there is a requirement to keep any of the forms with you, it's just good practice. An ATF agent can request (demand?) to see your form, but I don't know that you're required to show it on the spot and within the vicinity of your NFA firearm. An ATF agent will likely have resources to verify the item if you can't produce your form.

Any other LEO doesn't have a right at the Federal level to require you to show your form. The way most state laws that allow NFA items are written, it would be good practice to show it to them though. Generally, even in states where NFA is allowed the statutes are written as:

1) This thing is illegal
a) This thing is allowed if registered properly at the Federal level.

Also at the state level, most of the time the statute lists the exception as an affirmative defense. It's my understanding that means that you could still be arrested, even if you were to show your proof of registration (Form 1/4), but that you would get found not guilty by showing your proof of registration in court. In practice, it's not likely that you'd be arrested if you did show your to an LEO because the prosecuting attorney would get on the officer/department to not waste their time.

If at the state level you didn't have your form to show to an LEO, they would likely also have resources to contact (ATF hotline) that might be able to verify the item and it's registration status. Being able to show your form is likely the easiest route though. One other thing I haven't seen (haven't looked for either) is a definition at the state level of what would constitute proof of Federal registration. Hopefully a copy of the Form 1/4 would be enough and a sworn statement by an ATF agent wouldn't be required.

So as far as whether the complete form is required or whether the first page is enough...I would hope the first page would be enough. The first page has the applicant/transferee identity, item description, stamp, and ATF signature. This should be fairly easy for an individual. As a trust or other entity, if you name was John Q Doe and your trust was called "JQD Trust" you probably wouldn't have an issue with not having your trust documents with you. If you were a different trustee that was allowed to possess the item in question, it might be worth it to have whatever documentation shows that you are a member of that trust.

-------

Everything above is the long answer. The short answer is the first page should be enough. If it's not, there are likely other issues causing the problem (such as other things you might have done to be asked for your forms, or LEO misinformation/ignorance).
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:39 AM
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There is no requirement under Federal Law to have a copy of your transfer stamp with you.

In fact it is a Violation of the Privacy Act for anyone other than the issuing agency or the IRS to demand to see any Tax Document from a Citizen of the United States
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:53 AM
timeighty5 timeighty5 is offline
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So if you are out shooting somewhere without internet access, what would you do if required to show your forms?
The forms are stored for offline use via Dropbox. No internet required.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:06 AM
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The forms are stored for offline use via Dropbox. No internet required.
OK. I thought Dropbox was a cloud service.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:16 AM
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There is no requirement under Federal Law to have a copy of your transfer stamp with you.

In fact it is a Violation of the Privacy Act for anyone other than the issuing agency or the IRS to demand to see any Tax Document from a Citizen of the United States
I have yet to see any rule that defines exactly what is expected... have the form on you or be able to later produce it. Also agree that it is technically illegal for someone besides the folks you mention to request to see the form. However, that being said, is is well documented that some range officers will require the form before allowing you to shoot. It is their facility, so they can tell you to go away if you want to stand by the law. Also, my understanding is that some LEO might arrest you & confiscate the device, even if you have the form... but less likely if you show it.

I prefer to work with folks & not debate a legal point. There is nothing on that form that I would be afraid of showing to any qualified person. I just want to verify what I show is enough. I don't want to argue or fight someone over some point... I just want to be let alone & shoot.

Same with voting. Some say it is a violation of the law to require identification but I think it a good idea & have no problem showing whatever they want.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:21 AM
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There is no requirement under Federal Law to have a copy of your transfer stamp with you.

In fact it is a Violation of the Privacy Act for anyone other than the issuing agency or the IRS to demand to see any Tax Document from a Citizen of the United States
This. It would be like an LEO asking you for your Federal (or even State) tax returns. It's illegal without a warrent. Now, you could be arrested on suspicion, however, I would find that unlikely if you can describe when you submitted the original tax document, for instance.

A form 1 and form 4 are TAX STAMPS. They are NOT like a CCW permit.

However, a form 20, which is an Application to Transport Interstate Certain National Firearms Act (NFA) Firearms, should be maintained with the firearm if you leave the state where the SBR (for instance) is registered. A form 20 is NOT required for suppressors.

The form 20 also allows you to legally drive through a state where SBRs (for instance) are NOT ALLOWED, if you are en-route to the destination listed on the form 20.


And, to RedNeck -

I agree that it may be a good idea to keep the stamp with you in some form. And I agree that an LEO could do a lot of things regardless of whether you have it or not. And I agree that a range could deny access for ANY reason.

The real truth is that most people, including LEO and civilians that shoot regularly, are unaware of what the NFA laws are for their state, or what the requirements at the federal level are. I've talked with too many people while shooting suppressed who say 'is that legal'?

Having a stamp or not having a stamp won't affect their believe as to what is legal or not.

Last edited by sithlord; 09-18-2014 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:22 AM
BigWaylon BigWaylon is offline
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Now I am waiting on similar forms for my 300 blackout and this makes me wonder. Is there a requirement to keep a copy of the backside of the form? Right now I keep just the front page of each along with a copy of the corporate report, showing officers who can use the items.
As mentioned, requirement is not the correct word here. But to address the specific question above, I don't have the back page with me. And for good reason, as they're all completely blank. Nothing on any Form 1 application by an entity needs to be filled out on page 2. Nothing on a Form 4 application by an entity for a suppressor or AOW has to be filled out (section 15 does for SBR/SBS/MG/DD).

Plus, the stamp and examiner's signature are on Page 1, along with all pertinent info.

I keep the electronic copy of page 1 with me, plus the 3-page Cert of Trust (instead of the whole trust), along with any current 5320.20 forms.

I also have three identical folders with sheet protectors that hold a full size copy. I printed page one of two different forms on one page front/back. So, my current 9 stamps plus a 3 page Cert of Trust is only six pieces of paper.

The only place that the back pages exist for me are in the safe or when logging into EForms.

Last edited by BigWaylon; 09-18-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:23 AM
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OK. I thought Dropbox was a cloud service.
Dropbox is a cloud service, however you can choose to have the information also stored locally on your computer, tablet, or phone. If a document is edited the changes will update up to the cloud and then back down to your locally stored versions when your devices eventually connect to the cloud.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:45 AM
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Dropbox is a cloud service, however you can choose to have the information also stored locally on your computer, tablet, or phone. If a document is edited the changes will update up to the cloud and then back down to your locally stored versions when your devices eventually connect to the cloud.
Cool. I have a mostly private blog on Wordpress where I store pics & comments about life on my farm. I have a post there where I also keep the jpgs of my forms so that I too have access to them from anywhere.

Guess I am anal.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:01 PM
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The real truth is that most people, including LEO and civilians that shoot regularly, are unaware of what the NFA laws are for their state, or what the requirements at the federal level are. I've talked with too many people while shooting suppressed who say 'is that legal'?
So true. Most fun I have had shooting was when I invited a big time, pure country redneck to shoot on my range. This is the kind of guy that hunts for all his meat & whom loves to hunt squirrel... a lot. When he shot my CZ 455 Varmint suppressed for the first time, I looked & he had the biggest grin imaginable. He looks at me & states "You mean I could hunt squirrel with this gun & it would be legal?"

That gun is VERY accurate & when suppressed, sounds like a pellet gun. Every single person I have ever allowed to shoot suppressed is completely amazed. Sad we make it so hard to do so.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:33 PM
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In fact it is a Violation of the Privacy Act for anyone other than the issuing agency or the IRS to demand to see any Tax Document from a Citizen of the United States
Been thinking about this point. I agree in what you say, however it is illegal to own these items UNLESS you have been approved by BATFE and are the registered user. So if stopped or questioned by law enforcement, how else is there to prove you are legal other than showing the stamp?

So seems to me, if you were caught up in the situation where you are questioned and you refused to show your only proof of legally possessing the item(s), then they would then be forced to arrest you until they could contact the feds to see if you & the item(s) are registered.

So what is law enforcement to do? Their job is to verify you legally can possess the item(s) yet they can't legally ask to see the stamp. I feel certain they could eventually make some calls & get the info but how long would that take? I doubt they have the BATFE on speed dial, assuming they even know who controls such items. To me, the only rational solution is to show the form(s).
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:52 PM
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RNJ: I agree with you that it may not be "legal" for someone to ask I prefer to have forms with me and hopefully it will prevent arrest and then release due to the use of an affirmative defense ( the correct federal forms) even though as a dealer I do not need permission to travel with any of the items. Be Safe,
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:11 PM
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however it is illegal to own these items UNLESS you have been approved by BATFE and are the registered user. So if stopped or questioned by law enforcement, how else is there to prove you are legal other than showing the stamp?
I believe that is the way it works in most states. It is possible that there are states where there is no state law regarding possession and registration, and in those instances it would be ATF that was asking to see your stamp, which they can do.

I'm not sure of any states specify what you have to show as proof. I would guess that most rely on the form 1/4 as proof.


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So seems to me, if you were caught up in the situation where you are questioned and you refused to show your only proof of legally possessing the item(s), then they would then be forced to arrest you until they could contact the feds to see if you & the item(s) are registered.
That does seem to be the case. There are ATF hotlines that LEO can call, but I don't know if those are 24 hours or not. And unless the state defines what can be used as proof, you may be out of luck if you don't show a form 1/4.

These pages show some possible contact numbers. It may be in your best interest to have the numbers available:
https://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us
https://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/hotlines


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Originally Posted by RedNeck Jim View Post
So what is law enforcement to do? Their job is to verify you legally can possess the item(s) yet they can't legally ask to see the stamp. I feel certain they could eventually make some calls & get the info but how long would that take? I doubt they have the BATFE on speed dial, assuming they even know who controls such items. To me, the only rational solution is to show the form(s).
Agreed. I am also wondering if the ATF could/would refuse to release information to the LEO because it is privileged tax information. On the page two of the form it says:

"Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant’s proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request."

There's an interesting catch-22. The state can't compel you to show them your tax documents. But that tax document may be the only document the state would accept as proof of registration. There is nothing that says you can't show the state your registration form, you just can't be forced to do so.

It would be an interesting court case if someone who refused to show their registration form were to be arrested and bring this up as an issue. If the state can't provide a way to prove your registration without requiring you to show your private tax document (registration form), would the law requiring you to show such a form be nullified or otherwise unenforceable?


On a side note, in Oregon the laws work as I described above. NFA things are illegal, unless registered as required under federal law. That is an affirmative defense. If you were to be arrested and could show proof in court, you should not be found guilty. There is also another provision though, that a person cannot be arrested or charged if the person has documentation in their immediate possession showing that the item is registered as required under federal law. That brings up the question again of what is considered proof at the state level. There is no defined proof of registration that I'm aware of at the state level, but the registration form is proof at the federal level.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:41 AM
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i have a small wallet that has ATF and Hunting Lic. written on it. i keep my hunt/fish license in it, shrank my stamps down and have the front and back just like the originals but in a smaller version. this goes in my pocket along with my wallet. i also have copies in my truck and ATV. I really don't care who sees them and am not going to get in a pizzing match with LEO about it.
they have hasseled me enough just for going down to the colorado river in the middle of the desert which is about 15 minutes from me with Mexico being right on the other side to test fire a new gun or new gizmo into the huge dirt berm they have down there. it is within all AZ shooting/hunting regs and once while testing a TAVOR i had a conglomerate of Border patrol, county, city and F&G down on me!!

ran every gun i had, took a 20 minute test fire of 10 rounds and turned it into a 4 hour investigation!

finally they said i was correct and left w/o even a 'sorry'! so i keep the paperwork just to avoid that kind of ****. some LEO have not even seen a stamp and have wanted to see mine, not to check it, but just to see what it looked like.

OTOH i have a small aluminum pill holder on my key chain that has a couple of pain meds i'm prescribed and a couple of anti anxiety prescriptions in. now you know you can't carry the whole bottle with you all the time, so i went down to the sheriff's office and asked if a picture of the current script (bottle) showing all information was good enough. they stated yes it was as long as it had all of the label info in the pic

took about 10 pics to include the baby aspirin labels/bottles just in case.
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