Are there any updates on the Appleseed 15-22 ban due to out of battery discharge and firearm going full auto? I have a performance center model and would love to use it at an Appleseed. Thanks in advance.

As far as I am aware......NO, nothing.

Nothing from them, moreover nothing from S&W has ever materialised regarding any of the issues the OOB or the full auto or the ban. As Appleseed stated they were working with S&W to investigate the firearms in question, seems strange that 8 months later no news or findings have ever been presented.

I would assume the ban is still in place as they were banned pending further investigation. Since no such investigation ever seems to have taken place.

You'd probably be better off contacting Appleseed and getting accurate info regarding the ban 'straight from the horse's mouth' so to speak.

Appleseed would suggest you swap your PC model for a Ruger 10/22

They are still not allowed and the local chapter thinks its ridiculous as they have had to turn a lot of shooters away since its been in place.

As one member told me, "you never know when corporate will show up"

sad.........

The 15-22 is still "temporarily banned" per their website. I guess S&W won't make a special edition "Project Appleseed" 15-22 and pay them royalties.

I wonder if they also banned their "instructor" that "worked" on the 15-22 that went full auto just before it went full auto...

I've had my eye on getting a 15-22 for some time now and was finally able to snag one up in a trade a couple weeks ago. Prior to that, I did as much research on the OOB issue as I could based on what was out there. I also contacted S&W about it in hopes they'd tell me it was all good and nothing to worry about. Part of my concern was seeing an owner online that had posted pics of his 15-22 Sport with significant damage caused by OOB. That was on a factory new rifle just a couple weeks ago. The response I received from S&W did very little to ease my nerves about purchasing the rifle known by so many to have safety issues. In their own words

From what I understand the OOB issue dates back several years and to know that current models coming new out of the factory are still experiencing the issue is unsettling. To say that this is "not a common problem" is undeniably false and exudes a sense of denial. Until S&W recognizes that their platform is indeed prone to this issue, I doubt Appleseed will relax their stance on the issue and nobody can really blame them for it.

I've seen a few references to this and I believe one other issue. Certainly no fanboy of S&W I must ask what makes this OOB experience a common problem? In other words, I guess I'd need to see rifles sold / discharged numbers / OOBs, etc. As a side note, while researching the OOB issue moments ago, I ran across one of those lawyer ads, not all that different from those on tv. The lawyer cited the two different 15-22 issues. Both examples referenced "she" as the shooter. I question the odds of a "she" each time. It then provides a brief background on this personnal injury attorney: "In terms of five-dollar words, James is a millionaire. Born in North Texas to two college professors, he is glad both to learn and to teach, and the law provides ample opportunities for both."

I somewhat agree with your thought process on it. As an interested buyer, I did my due diligence in researching the rifle and I'll tell you for every 5 articles I read about a good experience, I found an article about a bad experience or safety issue. When is the last time you heard about a safety issue with the 10/22? As horrible as the 715T is, how many safety issues have you heard about that rifle? I follow a Facebook group devoted to 15-22 owners. The problem is more common than most would recognize.

Given S&W's history and reputation in the market and the fact a well-known organization has banned its product for safety issues, it comes as no surprise that some attorney would jump at the opportunity to take them to court.

Facebook link please? Thanks.

I don't have a link. I use FB on my phone. If you search M&P 15-22 you'll find it.

Found a few. What's the exact name of the one you follow? Thanks.

OOB.............

I've only ever seen 3 OOB 'explosions' (all thankfully in .22lr guns) and all three were in 10/22's. However, thats three rounds in the 10's if not 100's of thousands of rounds i've witnessed going down range in competitions....I'm not concerned that this is a particular safety issue with either rifle.

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D V C

It is a polymer lower receiver, and as such if the holes drilled for the pins for the trigger and hammer are a bit out of spec, say larger, then you have issues with the hammer and sear engagement. Pin walking will cause wear on polymer a bit faster than on aluminum. I bought Colt 901 pins which are 1.00" long and not 0.900" long to better fit my 15-22 Performance Center rifle. They came from Brownell's just the other day. I drove both of them in, using the existing pins as "slave pins" and the length made it more flush HOWEVER, the pin for the trigger assembly was small enough to make wiggle in the hole that it resided in. Measured it after taking it out and it was 0.153. The pin I had originally, a S&W pin was 0.155 an extra 2 thousandth larger in diameter.

You can buy non walking pin sets.
Preferably I would have liked to cherry pick a bunch of pins and find 2 that were 0.157" and use those. It would have been a very tight fit, but I believe the polymer would give enough for the pins to pass through and they would be very secure then.

My thought is that SOMETIMES the lowers are drilled too big and there is enough slop and clearance that some rifles will be out of tolerance for sear and hammer meeting in a safe and functional manner.

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Vern

Best advice I could give is to contact Smith & Wesson if your rifle malfunctions and avail yourself of their lifetime warranty rather than allow an Appleseed "instructor" to Bubba up your rifle.
I'd also call S&W before swapping in new pins and especially before taking a hot nail to the polymer lower.

With all due respect, you're giving out some bad advice. Butchering the lower receiver is not a good idea and could likely void the warranty. I have three 15-22s and none exhibit the "problems" you describe.

I agree about bad advice being given. This should maybe be in its' own thread but needs mentioning...

Our 15-22s use a generic "small pin" AR-15 trigger group. The "small pin" trigger and hammer pins are nominally .154" and .900" long. The pins that came in my 15-22s measure .1537" - .1538".

I use Geissele AR-15 trigger groups with Geisseles' 901 Colt trigger and hammer pins which are 1.000" long and sit flush with the outsides of the lower. There are (intentionally) slightly oversize and measure .1549" - .1550".

Measuring done with a 0 -1" vernier micrometer.

Yes, you are correct. My bad, and I'm sorry. Suggesting that one should just modify their brand new firearm before contacting the mfg is not good advice. I recall reading about this same issue on the rimfire forums and new pins, etc were suggested. What I said about staking the pin, and new pins should be the last resort, and preferably on an out of warranty Smith & Wesson. Apologies! (I read read what I had posted)

If you do get a 15-22 that has loose holes they will more than likely have to re-issue a new receiver or put in oversize pins as you can make a hole bigger, but not smaller as such. I've worked as a drill press operation at Boeing and hole tolerance can be hard enough to hold on metal, let alone on polymer/plastic. I've made lower receivers out of 80% lowers and getting the hole correct for those pins is pretty critical. Oversize means scrap and start over.

Now with Polymer there is more "tricks" that can be done, as mentioned, just to tighten up an out of spec hole, but it's only as a last resort.

If S&W got more firearms like these back they might strongly suggest to the manufacturing process that these hole need to be better addressed in the future. They can't fix something if they don't think it's broken. So, if there are several of these out there that have out of spec holes for those pins, then they need to address that.

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Vern

tomcatt51, I just got in some Colt 901 pins from Brownell's and after putting them in, the pin for the trigger seemed to be more sloppy. I took it out and measured it at 0.1530" x 1.000" and the original S&W pin that I had just taken out measured 0.155" x 0.900" The suggestion at the rimfirecentral forums was that Colt 901 trigger/hammer pins were longer and would address the "walking" possibility over the shorter 0.900" factory pins. I would LOVE to have had them 1.555" or even 1.556" and fit tight rather than be 0.002 smaller.

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Vern

I've fired through my 15-22 (2012 quad rail version)thousands + rounds with various ammo brands. The factory pins never moved or looked like doing so...never had a problem with the factory extractor either, never had a FTE and all FTF were ammo related.

I like modding and adding things to my 'adult lego' so i got a new FCG and added a set of 15-22 specific anti walk pins, just because they perform a function of minimising wear and tear and of course minimise the chance for any pin walking related safety issues. I had full confidence in my 15-22 before but now the concern of pin walking is not even an issue.

I'm sure if S&W thought that the pin walking issue and subsequent OOB or full auto's were an endemic happening on all 15-22's then the chance of multiple lawsuits, even the possibility of having a serious injury or death, then they would recall and 'fix' the issue. Seeing that they did not even issue a response to any of these 'problems' tells me what i need to know.

Many a time i have walked into some child caused disasters in the playroom, my two little cherubs sitting amidst the carnage, smoothing down their angel feathers, looking all innocent, when asked what happened...'i didn't do anything to it' is a very common response. Many of these issues appear to have happened with rifles that more than likely have been 'modified' by the owner and therefore go beyond the remit of S&W's responsibilities. Yes, there appears to be teething issues with the later gen 2 models...but never forget that bad news travels through air molecules much faster than good.

I can honestly say that if my 15-22 were to go full auto on me, i would have to load another mag

This issue with the Smith & Wesson 15-22 is not an isolated case. The article from The Firearms Blog indicates that there have been multiple incidents of issues. Enough so that they are banned from the Appleseed events. Ref: BREAKING: S&W M&P 15/22 Rifles BANNED at Appleseed Events Due to Run Away and Out of Battery Firing - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

I think it is rare, but something that S&W really needs to address. Someone has already been injured and required medical care.

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Vern

We have been through this before in another thread and my opinion of the affair was that Appleseed threw S&W 'under the bus' for their bad practice and solely because someone was injured....OOB can and will happen with any firearm, we all know of someone with a story about nearly losing an eye, as for the full auto issue stated by Appleseed, well, I only wish I knew what the 'instructor' did or if he'd post a youtube vid, showing us how he caused it to go full auto.

If a company as large as S&W thought or knew that there was a problem with their rifles from production and did nothing then their lack of action could land them in some pretty serious trouble, should anyone actually have a serious injury or death. After all, the Appleseed decree is a pretty damning indictment, they are either ignoring it at their peril or see no base in the accusation that the 15-22 is an unsafe firearm.
The complete lack of acknowledgement or response from S&W makes me think it is the latter.

This post is the first I've ever even heard of this "issue". I have one of the older style "original" 15-22's and after over 1,500 rounds through it, for the exception of 3 Remington Thunderbolt "failure to fire", I've had zero issues out of it.

P.S. I put those same three in my revolver and they still wouldn't fire so, it was the ammo..........not the gun.

While we don't have the numbers here the 15-22 has a good following in our IDPA based 3-gun matches. Personally I have fired thousands of rounds through my 15-22 and I've seen others do the same. I had one OOB (suspected) but have had zero issues besides. A couple of FTF, FTE and some duds, but not much more than expected from a rimfire, and less than some of the 10/22s I've competed against.

With the numbers of 15-22s in the US surely if this was a real problem they would be experienced lefr right and center, not at one or two select Appleseed events, where people of questionable skill have done on-range gunsmithing?

You might want to read this: It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

WHEW!!! long read. I see I came late for the Dinner.. ended up at Supper.. LOL

Meaning, I'm new to the S&W 15-22 since June 18th. So it was news to me about this non-issue I saw over on another "rimfire" forum, and now here.

FWIW, it is not dirty gun, nor duds nor for the most part, ammo. however, even Smith & Wesson has recommendations of ammo to use and NOT to use on their Performance Center model. ALL firearms are man made, and there can be an issue of a few slipping through that for all intents and purposes, look "ok". On mine putting in 0.153" x 1.000" diameter pins and noticing the movement of the pin in the hole leads me to believe that hole size can quickly become a problem. Not every one has issues with hole size. The holes are precise for the proper alignment of trigger sear and hammer sear. If there is very much off in where the holes are, or the size of the holes or the wear of the pins, and matching sears and let off, it can lead to some problems.

I've made a lower from 80% lower Polymer from jamesmadisontactical.com/ and drilling, even with a jig can be challenge in polymer. If you run the drill bit too fast and don't provide enough "cleaning" as you drill you can get the tip hot and melt/bore the hole instead of cutting a nice clean hole. Worn bits on metal usually give undersized holes, but on plastics they can generate heat and actually cut oversize. Nothing worse than an oversize hole.

So my speculation... theory is, someone had one of the rifles that probably had oversize holes that allowed too much give on the pins and resulting tolerances between trigger sear and hammer.


It is not S&W fault design, it is simply machinist error on when to change out bits or the procedure of drilling the hole, and nothing more. It can happen on aluminum as well, with the same results.

Cheer! (toasts glass of wine to you all... anyone want a nice Merlot?)

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Vern

This brings the Toyota "unintended acceleration" cases of a few years ago to mind. Frankly I had not heard about this in my cave in Tora Bora, but with 5K plus rounds through my "experienced" vintage 15-22 color me suspicious.

My inner Bubba installed an aftermarket Jard trigger way back when, for what that's worth. I do get the occasional failure to fire which is common these days; but never the dreaded OOB.

For now I'm inclined to file this with the "hateful internet video""of Benghazi.

Registered just to be irritated. Honestly I would like to hear something about this. 10 months and I am wondering if it is time to pick up a new rifle to run Appleseed.
I have a Marlin 795 that I am lukewarm on. Trigger is only so so. I would much rather use my 15-22. I don't really care for any 10/22 I have seen. Not soliciting rifle suggestions from other manufacturers though I would take them just want to know if it is time.

Thanks in advance,
John

I purchased my 15-22 in 2009 when they were first introduced. Back then, this Forum was flooded with OOB reports. OOB reports continued for probably close to a year or so. Then S&W started to install "blue springs" in the FCG and bolt spring, and the OOB reports went away. I was surprised to hear of the Appleseed ban so many years later. OOBs at the wrong place at the wrong time.

If the ban is going to stay in effect waiting on S&W to issue an official corrective action as the ban letter indicates... I wouldn't hold my breath.

Actually it was ONE OOB and then was an issue only because the next shooter on the line caught a piece of brass and bled a little. The only apparent difference between this and incidents of OOB with other brands of 22lr semi-autos seems to be that someone bled a little. Totally avoidable if Appleseed simply exercised common sense and didn't stack shooters with semi-autos on the firing line "elbow to elbow" and S&W can't "fix" that.

I would suggest finding other events to shoot. The way Project Appleseed stacks shooters on the line elbow to elbow is totally unacceptable to me.

Thank you for the responses.

Never been to an "Appleseed" event, but excess shooters does not sound like much fun. I live in 10 acres (330' x 1330') out in the country with corn field to the West and South of me, and forest to the east of me. I enjoy shooting in the back yard were the majority of the "free space" is. Range is open 24/7

What differences would there be in the standards "Sport" model and the "Performance Center" model for probabilities of OOB ? It's a rimfire and the mere stripping out of the magazine with enough resistance (not getting in the chamber) would be enough for the primer to detonate. Any .22 lr semi auto could be prone to the same issues.

I'll have to Google "Appleseed" some time and see what it's all about.

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Vern

https://mississippiapples.files.word...09/banner4.jpg

Does this look like something you want to do? It was copied from Project Appleseeds web site. Before someone says they just got the shooters together for a pic look at the downrange target spacing. I call putting shooters on the line like this stupid at best.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139256490-post90.html

I have to say, with regards to rimfire and OOBs, it happens.
I have had one in a service rifle I was using (SLR) in 7.62 in the late 80s, with a Heckler Koch conversion kit down to .22..

Blew the side out of the rifle and basically trashed it be beyond repair, much to the dismay of the armourer on duty.

Fast forward to last year or so and watching the very funny Doomsday Preppers on Discovery Channel and one of the guys there, who was demonstrating how he and his son practice takedown drills with a .22, as a point to note a Ruger 10-22,
He very successfully managed to blow the end of his thumb off with his OOB,

That was ON Camera and Broadcast for all to see,
Though I guess it wouldn't warrant a withdrawal of the 10-22 from use, as it had NOT been worked on by an, and I use this word loosely, "Instructor " so I guess it failed to qualify for Appleseed attention.

OOBs happen. FTF happen. FTE happen. It's part of the cycle of using 22s. For crying out loud. Appleseed, accept it and move on!!

Rob.

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Utrinque Paratus

It looks like best-case, you're taking a brass bath all afternoon. Worst case, you're directly in the line of fire for any malfunction.

Gonna take a pass on that.

Rule of thumb for all those who attend....
GET THERE FIRST!
Get on the far left target...you'll have a great time.

For the rest of you, second and third et al...well that's why you have to sign a liability waiver

I wonder where the shills are? Maybe they know what is going on with the ban?

I've seen ranges that tight in the military before. Wouldn't want to be eating that brass though. Had too much of that before.

The shooters prayer: "Oh Lord, spare us from 'helpful' folks at the range."

Blame the (any) other guy is a standard response to anything that results in an injury.

About drilling polymer, you're supposed to use spade type drill bits. Otherwise the size of the hole is only remotely related to the size of the drill bit. Heat build up can be a problem in other materials too if you're going for precision.

I went looking for an update on the Appleseed forums. All I found was that S&W was in discussion with Appleseed for about two weeks and then nothing. Appleseed claims that S&W has not replied to emails and when discussing with company representatives, all they say is no comment. Appleseed states that if S&W would just state that there is no design flaw and the firearm is safe, they would return them to the line.

So, basically, nothing has happened on this in the past 8 months!

The ban will never be lifted; Appleseed will never admit they over reacted and S&W will never respond to them.......

Owell....

I believe you are right.

Aaahhhhh

EGO....

Don't ya love it!

Rob

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Utrinque Paratus

Well, I just was banned from the Appleseed project forums... guess they didn't like me questioning their decision.

I went to their forum and read the thread. Whole lotta rationalizing goin' on.

It can't possibly be a problem that Project Appleseed stacks shooters with semi-autos on the firing line elbow to elbow.

The gun owner can't possibly be responsible for the condition or operation of their gun.

It can't possibly be Project Appleseeds fault, or the fault of the Project Appleseed "instructor", when a 15-22 goes full auto after their "instructor" "works" on it.

Guess that leaves S&W to point their finger at. It's all THEIR fault.

Yep. I'll give them that it is not their fault the rifle had an OOB detonation. However, if there was more space on their lines, the injury would be less likely to occur. Rugers and Marlins can do it to!

I'll also concede the point that S&W didn't do a recall when switching from yellow to blue springs... however it has been widely circulated on the 'net, so if the issue occurred with the yellow springs, send it in, get them replaced. Problem solved.

I also thought my point about the fire control group being correctly installed was valid. If an AS instructor is going to "hammer the pins back in place", shouldn't he at least try to figure out why they walked in the first place? Of course it is S&W's responsibility to install them correctly the first time, but we know folks pull out triggers and polish stuff all the time!

They say the issue is closed as far as they are concerned, therefore I do not see this as a "temporary restriction"... it is a full ban.