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Old 12-15-2009, 10:25 AM
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Default M&Pc Bullet Weights?

Sometime back, there was a discussion on bullet weights in the compacts, and a reason not to use the 147gr. bullets in the compacts.

Couldn't find the link. Does anyone remember the points made against using the heavier bullets in these guns?

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Old 12-15-2009, 02:09 PM
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While I don't recall the specific thread, I can assume the argument is as follows:

Heavier bullets (e.g. 147 gr.) with the same amount of powder behind them as lighter bullets (e.g. 124/115 gr.) won't get up to the same velocity when fired. And rounds fired from guns with shorter barrels will have lower velocities than from a longer barrel, as not all of the powder is able to burn in a shorter barrel. Ergo, heavy bullets fired from short barrel compact handguns will have doubly diminished velocity, and therefore could (in theory) underperform when compared to either a lighter bullet or a longer barrel.

But some or all of the loss in "stopping power" from a lower velocity can be made up with the heavier weight of the projectile. The loss in velocity can also be lessened through the use of +P (extra powder) rounds, or through rounds with special fast burning powders made for short barrels, as offered by Speer and others.

Last edited by RogueJSK; 12-15-2009 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:33 PM
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I read that thread with great interest as well, trying to select an ammo weight to use for my 9c. It was my first ever 9X19. I finally decided on the 124 Gold Dot for 3 seasons, the 147 Winchester T loads (RA9T) or 147 Federal (9MS) for winter. Although I'd be VERY comfortable having to run any of them all 4 seasons. If I was forced to select, I'd likely select the Ranger T load for added penetration on a large/heavy target. All have functioned flawlessly. But I think that little gun would feed tree bark and twigs if asked to!
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:50 PM
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I believe the argument was more of a function/damage to the gun issue, rather than a performance issue, but I just can't remember.

I also use the 124gr. Speer GDHP, but was wondering about the 147 gr.

Thanks for the replies,
Munster
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:00 AM
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I never will use 147 gr in any gun. I carry Golden Sabor 124gr +p in both of my 9mm handguns.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus88 View Post
I never will use 147 gr in any gun. I carry Golden Sabor 124gr +p in both of my 9mm handguns.
Why? The 147 stuff seem to be the most accurate out of my MPc.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:44 AM
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I can understand your apprehension. I had it too! In fact it kept me from owning a 9X19 for 40+ years. It's a common thread running through what I'm beginning to think is more urban legend than anything else? It all seems to be sourced back to SE Asia (RVN) in the 60's where special op's types were using it in a down loaded (sub sonic) FMJ variant to make more effective the suppressors of the era. (AKA: dog load)
4 + decades of time, R & D and bullet design improvements seem to have bypassed the star crossed 147 9X19 somehow? Every other center fire handgun loading has been improved by propellant and bullet technology in the last 45 years, but not the red headed step child 147 9X19? The laws of physics being massaged by bullet improvements are only reserved for the other defensive loadings, but they were some how to be suspended for the poor 147 9X19 alas? Well in fairness, I've been a loud nay sayer myself and for a really LONG time! I found myself eventually unable however, to defend my selection of "heavy for caliber" bullets in every/any other caliber and not the 9X19? I felt perfectly comfortable casting my fate to a 5 or 6 shot .38/.357 running the .38+P FBI load, but I felt it was expected of me to balk at trusting a 9X19 JHP offering nearly identical performance levels, but holding 10, 11 or 12 rounds? Icing finally on the cake for me was, learning (on the Forum) about the performance parameters of the vaunted 147 JHP +P+ death ray .38 Special's the G issued. That would vaporize S&W revolver steel if the gun were even left in the same room with it. Trouble is as it turns out, the performance of those "Iridium PU38 space modulator" G issued 147 +P+ JHP .38 Specials were (GASP!) identical to the lowly 147 JHP 9X19's performance, even though the 9X19's are rated as non+P.
So, I'm an old dog. And I'm an old dog now eating Crow? And a lot of it! I was foolish for far too long. Numbers don't lie even when I desperately wish them to. YMMV-(mine did after 45 years)
Too soon old, too late smart may have to become my close!
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:35 AM
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I have not done any testing personally, but the egg heads with big brains came up with this reason: 147gr JHP bullets fired from short barrels will not achieve sufficient velocity to expand as designed. The lighter 115 and 124+P (and +P+) loads will still achieve enough velocity to expand. I know Speer also produces a "Short Barrel Gold Dot" that supposedly will expand at lesser velocities than their regular Gold Dot bullet.

As for safety of function, a quality round is a quality round, no matter what barrel it is fired from.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:09 AM
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I agree NHSW!
The other part of it in the not so recent past, was that the bullets didn't/wouldn't/couldn't expand reliably. Solution? Push them faster so they would expand. And the easiest way to push them faster was to keep them light. That was yet another nail in the coffin of the 147 grain. With the bullet technology of the era it's 1000 FPS velocity wouldn't make it open. Aggravated further by a short barrel giving it even a bit less velocity? All I'm trying to say is, urban legends die hard. And bullet technology seems to be a highly distrusted science. I know, cause I still carry a LSWCHP in a .38!
Go figure?
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:57 PM
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I know on our dept I never saw an expanded 147 hydra shok taken out of a bad guy. Also had 38 lswhp deflect off jaw bone from mod 60 S&W at short range. That is why I carry 10mm silvertip.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsterf18 View Post
I believe the argument was more of a function/damage to the gun issue, rather than a performance issue, but I just can't remember.

I also use the 124gr. Speer GDHP, but was wondering about the 147 gr.

Thanks for the replies,
Munster
That is an interesting concern for people to be expressing. The M&P9c slide is 12.2 oz on my postal scale compared to 11.6 oz for the Glock 26 and Sig P239 9mm and 8.4 oz for the Kahr MK9. I can't imagine slide velocity getting too high with a slide that is that heavy for a 9mm. And I did fire 25 rounds of 147 grain HST through it with no problem. .
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:59 AM
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Mine handles Win 127 +P+ just fine.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:13 AM
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Interesting data on the difference in slide weights of the 3!
THANKS g26s239!
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:17 PM
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Your welcome Spotteddog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Mine handles Win 127 +P+ just fine.
I suspected as much but this is good to hear from a longer term owner.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g26s239 View Post
Your welcome Spotteddog.

I suspected as much but this is good to hear from a longer term owner.
I was lucky enough to find several boxes of 127 +P+ a few years ago. I shot 50 rounds of it through my 9C and it performed well. Recoil wasn't bad but recoil doesn't usually bother me anyway. But the gun really barks.

Win 127 +P+ has proven to be a very effective round on the street. At least that's what I been told anyway.

I have also shot Corbon DPX and Golden Saber through it. All worked well.
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitgun View Post
Why? The 147 stuff seem to be the most accurate out of my MPc.
Its not to light for me. I like the weight of my 124 because I feel that it can travel thought someone better. IMO
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