So like the title says.................. let's talk about M&P failure's. Particularly the M&P pistols! This stiory begins with me going to the local gun dealer who, surpiise surprise doesn't own one. Well he also runs a CCW class here in OHIO where I live. And oh yea, might I add he doesn't sell them either. But anyway I was in his shop browsing the other night and mentioned that I wanted the M&P40c to CCW. Well he starts to explaing to me that he has seen Alot! of M&P's fail during his classes and how they're made like ****. I just don't see how that's possible when it is being issued to my Cincinnati police department!

I have an M&P9 FS, M&P9c and a M&P45 FS and shoot them very often and yet to have a failure of any kind. Opinions are like ............. everyone has one.

Well, any gun can fail; if you haven't experienced gun failure, you just haven't shot enough.

However, the M&Ps I see at USPSA and IDPA matches seem to be reliable. All the failures/problems I've personally witnessed have been ammo or sights in stock guns. Modification kits can be improperly installed or adjusted.
I've seen the FO sights broken out, and improperly secured rear sights come loose and shift, which is annoying but not particualrly difficult to quickly repair.
M&P chambers seem to run fairly tight (within SAAMI standards) and will choke on "Glocked" .40s. We had one M&P shooter with 9mm WWB ammo choke on 3 cartridges in one box, but when I checked them in a Brn HP, they would not go in it either--bad ammo.

I've run into some brand nazis, and frankly they bore me to tears. We had one notable PIA at our range who preached constantly about his "Perfect Glock" until it broke right in the middle of a match--just moments after he announced to everyone "now watch perfection in action."

__________________
Science plus Art

Jay --

The M&P9 is the darling and recommenced pistol at Tactical Defense Institute in Adams County. Take your "CCW" course from them, not some local guy padding out NRA Basic Pistol to 12 hours. Fully equipped range, etc. Even if you have your Ohio CHL take their Pistol 1, 2, and 3 course and learn how to shoot. Already know how to shoot? Take it anyway.

(No such thing as "CCW" in Ohio, of course, your Concealed Handgun License only covers -- wait for it! -- concealed handguns. )

-- Chuck

Just because a guy doesnt own a gun that he may sell, means nothing. And on the part about not selling, I know many gun shops that dont sell certain brands mainly due to bad sales reps selling to THEM, credit issues, or just spite due to a 20 year old fight about some stupid item.

M&Ps are great guns.

I have two full size M&P pistols, a 9mm and 40 cal. I shot the 40 cal in the Friday Night Steel matches at the Fairfield Sportsmen's Association range near Cincinnati for a full season. I fired probably about 3000 rounds of handloaded ammunition in this league and a about a thousand more in practice. I had no failures of any kind.
In my experience, gun dealers are usually quite lacking in actual shooting knowledge. They know about buying and selling guns, but not necessarily about shooting them.

- - Buckspen

Why would he endorse a product he doesn't sell? If fact, many do just the opposite. Every make has its share of failures, the M&P is no exception. It's a fine gun, and I'd have bought one instead of my G30 if the price had been a little better.

Not to pile on, but from personal experience, my M&P 45 has been 100% reliable, from round 1. I use it for tactical 3-gun matches as well as just plain plinking. I have several thousand rounds through it, and it is one of my go-to pistols for carry as I have complete faith in it.

Anything mechanical can fail, anything made by man and / or machine can be imperfect. The key is, don't take 1 persons opinion on anything, look around, ask around and form your own opinion.

I'm on my second M&P 40 in three years. The first one I just plain wore out. Took at least 20,000 rounds. The only fails I ever had were because of ammo. Now breaking in my second.

Attached Images

IMG00466-20110129-1209.jpg (82.6 KB, 249 views)

"Just plain wore out" after three years and 20,000 rounds? That's really not a lot... What do you mean by wore out?

My M&P Full Size .40 has over 15,000 rounds downrange without a bobble of any kind and is still going strong.Actually it is constantly improving!

Ronmanci...What is wore out on your gun after only 20K? Just curious...

Randy

A lot of Background and Testing is done before L.E. changes
Firearms.
Check the Big IDPA/USPSA Matches for how many M&Ps are used and Do Not Go Down.
Everybody has a opinion but Numbers tell the Story.

__________________
Old Shootist

Well he actually functions his very own ccw class.

Jknox
I work part time for a small gun shop and as far as semi autos go we have sold more M&Ps than anything else.Never had any negative feedback on any of them.Maybe we're just lucky.My own M&P 40c did have a failure to feed that turned out to be magazine issue long since resolved.If this man does not sell or own one I doubt he can be viewed as an authority.And by the way what constitutes "a lot".By the way I am in no way an authority on anything nor do I profess to be.We are in our lives blessed with many self proclaimed experts.I call them armchair adventurers.I also have found that I learn a lot more with my ears open and my mouth shut cause there are many more intelligent people out there than me.Hope this helps.

The original post reaks of BS.
A gun shop owner with an opinion like this on the M&P is either stupid or fictional.

__________________
Morality >religion

M & P s are great guns ,I own 2 M&Ps now . I plan on buying at lease 3 more .Later on ,But don't tell my wife .

__________________
God Bless our Country & Family

Well I've got three of 'em. One had a dead trigger problem due to the DCAEK issues that are covered here and elsewhere. But that's entirely due to having just put the kit in. Randy put the MA-Compliant sear spring and plunger in the gun for me, and all was well....

I don't consider that an S&W failure, although the S&W design, in afterthought, looks a little wrong....

I don't think that the failure rates on the M&P are any worse than anything else in the Tuppergun category. Or, for that matter, about any "Service" gun or "Service" BUG (i.e. the Compacts).

Sounds like the usual "Para's are made from soft steel" that you'll get from a dealer that doesn't sell them, or makes more money on some other brand....

Regards,

__________________
Stu.

Worn down would have been a better choice. It still functioned fine, but compared to a brand new one the gun was very "loose". The trigger just wasn't the same anymore, rails were shaved a little allowing the slide to play. The backstrap pin got loose all the time. I got $300 for it on trade, so I replaced it with a 2011.

folks,in my part of the country,the mp semi has taken over as the gun to get.
for the money,and versatility,sw has hit a home run with this gun,and i hear that talk from a lot of experienced gunsmiths,and respected pistol packin people.they love them.
i nevr thought i would trade my beloved sig guns,but to me,my mp guns have at least 30% less recoil,felt or percieved ,the gun is dramtically easier for me to shoot.i love it.
my 2 cents from a person who is just a novice when it comes to opinions on what is a good gun.

I had a 4013 TSW that I bought in 1997. I traded that for my first M&P .40. At the time I thought the 4013tsw was the best gun in the world. Then I shot the M&P and I felt like a dinosaur shooting the 4013.

I've bought and sold more carry guns than I can count, as I found something about them I didn't like. My M&P9c is finally the end of the line, as I can't find anything about it I don't like. It's easy to work on and improve upon too. I did a Burwell trigger job and installed a Dawson FO front sight. Excellent for carry and IDPA shoots.

I put a CT Grip and a S&W micro 90 light on my new one.

Having trouble finding a nice holster that works with the light. I don't like the bladetech stuff.

If you prefer kydex type rigs, I recommend you check out Personal Security Systems. Personal Security Systems Kydex Holsters

My 40c, equipped with CTC grips works great in it.

__________________
MotorCityGun

Is this dealer even a Smith and Wesson dealer?

I'm pretty sure the official dealers don't get to decide to not carry certain models. They either carry the models the distributor delivers, or they don't get any guns from the distributor.

__________________
WWSSD?
What would Skeeter do?

I would like to know exactly how many M&PS' have been made, and just how many have been returned for service. We use M&Ps' in our CCW classes with a lot of new shooters and haven't seen any problems. One early 40 that a friend had bought did require a new striker, slight change in the sear pad on them. His would give a light strike every now and then on reloads, the new one hit with more energy. Our state patrol went with them and several other local agencys, I've yet to hear of any problems with them. To each there own but I find it hard not to recomend the M&P series to anyone looking for new gun.

I carry the S&W M&P 9 FS for work. (no failures, actually my favorite gun)
It out shoots and out preforms the glock... but back to opinions...
Off duty I carry the S&W 45 Compact or my BERSA Thunder 9.

Smith and Wesson.. is a great gun...
I have words for that gunshop owner... but I am not about to stoop to his level.

Check it out...
dont limp wrist the gun.. and keep the extractor clean,
also dont over lube this gun... rails, barrel, and the arm of the trigger... look it up and follow it.
and you won't have any issues with this gun....
If you do.. S&W will take care of you and get you back on track.

good luck.........(ignore the tuff guy in the gun shop!)

__________________
)))X~ silvercn ~X(((

I have had one ammo related failure in my two M&P9s. My 9c jammed on a split case in the first 50 rds. Had to poke it out with a BIC pen. Resumed shooting with no issues.



My 9 has been flawless with factory and reloads. The 9c has been flawless since.



This is the only round of wolf 9mm to fail on me in all the years I have been using it. I have used it in Sig 226, Beretta 92, KelTec P11, Sub2000, Glock19, WaltherPPS, Uzi Mobel-b, 9mm AR15 and more.

__________________
μολὼν λαβέ

I agree with you...thats only a little over 500 rounds a month...I hope mine does better....

__________________
1911Pro9 M&P9 40 45c 686.357

My Cadillac dealer says Lexus is a terrible car. In fact he doesn't even sell them! Says he has seen a lot of trouble with Lexus though.

Sound familiar? Salesmen sell what they have in stock. They downplay what they don't sell.

Same goes with advisors.... I had a kid tell me he would take care of my investing and set me up with an excellent plan!

I asked if he was a millionaire or multi-millionaire. Of course he was neither, probably living at home with his parents yet. I told him I don't take advice from people with less experience than I have. And I never take opinions from a commissioned salesman.

Yet another reliable experience with 9mm FS. About 1000 rounds without a glitch.

Went into my LGS back in 1989 to look at a Glock 17. Dealer said they were totally **** and almost guaranteed to blow up in your hand. Two years later they were advertising them, had them well stocked and were recommending them in their training courses. I asked the same guy about their change of heart, he just played stupid. Businesses are centered around marketing and profit (period). Recommendations should only come from people who are legitimately in the know, like your fellow S&W Forum members!

Jknox, which store were you in? I live in Ohio close to Cincy and I have never had a dealer tell me that. I am a police officer too and know a bunch that love their M&P's.

I totally agree, if he is a dealer then he is there to make money. Why would I not try and sell a customer what ever he wanted (or prefered) to make a little change in the process!

[QUOTE=Jknox87; But anyway I was in his shop browsing the other night and mentioned that I wanted the M&P40c to CCW. Well he starts to explaing to me that he has seen Alot! of M&P's fail during his classes and how they're made like ****. ![/QUOTE]



Let me guess, he wanted to sell you a Glock ;-)

__________________
Dave

Pistol Training.com had a M&P9 go 62,333 rounds beginning on 22-Apr-08 and ending on 5-Dec-08, a total of 228 days, or 273.4 rounds per day.

Read about it here-

pistol-training.com Blog Archive M&P Endurance Test Ends

Your dealer is full of it. He should be selling used cars, not guns.

Let's not forget that the pistols have been constantly improved over the years (kudos to S&W). My 2010 9c has a much better trigger, finish and striker (new ones are silver) in comparison to my 2008 9FS.

The only problems I have personally witnessed are:
1. striker break (old black one) from one that had extreme dry firing from training classes.
2. white dot from front site came out

Great pistols, I have had no feeding or extraction problems. I recommend them.

__________________
NRA Certified Instructor

Are you talking about the takedown tool that locks the grip? You know they would have sent you a new one for free? The little nub on it does seem to get chewed up if you use it a lot. I don't use it all.

__________________
NRA Certified Instructor

62,000 rounds is not a tremendous amount, especially when the end result was a cracked slide. Worn out a little sure, but actual metal failure? And S&W didn't offer to replace it?

Hickok45 had an M&P slide crack live on Youtube.

I don't have anything against M&Ps, but I'm wondering if they will have a higher percentage of slide failures than other polymer pistols over the next couple decades as people own and shoot them longer.

I've got a M&P .45 and have had a few FTF due to bad ammo ...

I understand peoples opinions, but I just can't see how you could ever say these weapons are built like ****.

My S&W bias aside, these things are rock solid.

I had an M&P 40C briefly before returning to 3rd GEN pistols. I found it to be well designed, easy to strip and insp, and a nice shooting pistol. I preferred the ergonomics to my G-19. I didn't keep it because I liked the design of the all metal 3rd GEN S&Ws better, although it's a bit of a hunt to find what you want. I also own a SIG 229 in 40 S&W and found it a more comfortable pistol to shoot in that caliber. If I were buying another compact M&P today, I would opt for the 9MM.
Frankly, I think the M&P series has out-glocked the Glock in terms of innovation. My two cents worth, anyway....

Did you even read the test?

S&W looked it over and said go ahead see what happens...then S&W's lawyers said no way.

PT and the S&W guys wanted to continue, but they could not.

So they send the gun back so that S&W could look at it and see what needed to be done to improve any deficiencies.

I would say that 62,000 rounds in less than a year was damn good for that pistol, cracked slide and all, considering that 99% of most shooters will not shoot 62,000 rounds-total-in a lifetime.

If you use ****** ammo you will experience some stovepipe, FTF and FTE. I had that experience with my M&P9c with Monarch (Russian) ammo. Using Remington or Winchestor, etc., no problems.

62,000 rounds is certainly a large amount. But I'm sorry, I don't see a cracked slide after 62k impressive. Having to replace springs and the barrel, absolutely. But not a slide failure. For an M&P shared by a family of high volume shooters, they might be looking at a failed firearm after only a few years. At the least they will be sending it in for service. If the pistol was bought used, they will be looking at replacing a $500 firearm. I expect more out of polymer wonders made by any manufacturer.

Again, I have nothing against M&Ps and I think they are good firearms. But these instances of cracked slides have planted a seed of doubt in my opinion of their longevity.

Ouch.... 62000 rounds, at one visit per week, comes out to about 1200 rounds/visit.

That could hurt....

Still, the gun should be able to take that. While I agree with the folks who said "send it back" instead of fire it some more, the pics I saw indicate that it probably would have been safe enough. The bullet is contained in the barrel, and the barrel and breech probably are still locked up well enough. The slide staying on the frame may be an interesting question, but there probably is enough contact to hold things together.

My own experience - I tend to shoot just a few magazines worth through several guns per (weekly) range visit - is more like 50 rounds per week, or about 2,500 a year. Small potatoes v.s. 62,000, but I doubt if I'll wear it out.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I used to be in the plastics business. Part of the time (early 60's, actually) was in QC, and I got to play with some interesting "engineering" plastics. Presuming S&W picked the right one, you probably could make the barrels out of it.... (Or at least support a lightweight metal rifled portion.) They can warp if thermally abused (which is likely), or if the wrong material is chosen, but generally can hold up fairly well.

Still, the designer, and a little bit of luck, is necessary to get maximum results. But often the result is some laughably flimsy looking components can usually do the job.

And you can self-hinge, self-lubricate, and all kinds of other fun things, too.

I wonder what would happen if you could come up with an all-plastic barrel? Betcha the Brady's would have a fit....

Regards,

__________________
Stu.

Based on that, you would have never bought any of the guns that I have seen fail, that were new out of the box. With way less rounds through than that M&P.

I have seen a hammer on a $900 HK USP follow the slide in the first magazine. I have seen 2 brand new Sigs malfunction mag after mag, a recoil spring assembly on a Glock sheared off the base and lock up on it 5th magazine.


62,000rds and a cracked slide in a part of the slide that did not impact the SAFE operation of the M&P to me is impressive.

I would bet, that there is not a person reading this thread, me included, that has the time to run 62,000 rounds through a gun in a LIFETIME, let alone in a year.

I know IPSC shooters that complete every weekend that only shoot 12,000-15,000 a year.

Those guys at PT.com do it for a living, and the M&P impressed them and that says something to me.

My thoughts exactly. And if by some chance I were to run 50 rounds per week - every week without fail - I would be asking for a replacement in about 24 years.

By then I'll be 80 and really, really cranky. I pity the fool who answers that phone call.

You lose.
I've slowed down my competition shooting a lot in the last couple of years, but when I was shooting a club match (or two) every weekend and 6 or more major sanctioned USPSA and IDPA matches a year, with as much practice during the week as I could manage, I was shooting well over 25,000 rounds a year. That's only 500 rounds a week.
At USPSA competition speeds, a box of ammo goes downrange in only a few seconds. Total shooting time for a 100-round IDPA match is only 2 or 3 minutes per shooter.

The sponsored masters who shoot for a living easily top 60,000 rounds a year. One friend who is sponsored shot over 62,000 recorded rounds through one custom 2011 in the year he finally made master in both USPSA and IDPA, shooting Blazer factory loads only. His gun had only one failure, in the last match of the year at GA state IDPA championships. It's easy to keep track of rounds fired when all you have to do is count the empty factory cases.

According to one survey taken by Colt, the average non-competitive shooter shoots only a few dozen up to a few hundred rounds per year, as opposed to competitive shooters who range from a few thousand rounds to tens of thousands.

As an aside, that's why some brands and models are seldom seen in competition; some guns just aren't made for the long haul.
The M&P Smiths are now only second in numbers to the Glocks in IDPA/SSP, and are gaining in popularity. Serious competitors give a gun a workout that few non-competitors can imagine.

__________________
Science plus Art

I was in a very large gun shop in Pa several year ago. They had a second gen Colt SAA with a hefty price tag. I used to collect second gen Colts and ask the owner about this gun. He started telling me how wonderful the second gen Colts were....not like the current guns that have Uberti produced frames, etc. He was talking about the short run of Colt Cowboys of course. He owns a large gun shop and either had no idea what he was talking about or thought he was talking to an idiot. Beware of info obtained in a gun shop. Just because they are there doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

and they all stink!

I don't buy HKs or Sigs. Sig just recently got thrown out of the ATF trials due to malfunctions. And the recoil spring assembly on that Glock can be replaced in 10 seconds with a $7 part. Can you repair or replace a cracked slide in 10 seconds? Oh and what's that going to cost again?