Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Semi-Automatic Pistols > Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols
o

Notices

Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols All Variants of the Smith & Wesson M&P Auto Pistols


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-23-2011, 02:59 PM
raykdman raykdman is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 116
Likes: 387
Liked 57 Times in 39 Posts
Default 9mm +p ammunition

Purchased a new M&P 9 back in January. I have only used 115G target ammunition with no problems. Does anyone recommend using 124G +P SD ammunition in this pistol? The dealer I purchased the pistol recommended the Winchester PDXI +P even though the S&W manual states no.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-23-2011, 04:28 PM
Harrison Harrison is offline
US Veteran
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 2,601
Likes: 8,743
Liked 1,813 Times in 797 Posts
Default

Isn't the S&W M&P9 able to fire NATO, spec 9mm?? That stuff is +P+. Glocks, Beretta, Sig, all will handle NATO spec 9mm, I cannot imagine Smith building a pistol, calling it a Military & Police and not making it able to handle the +P+ loads that the military and many police departments shoot. If it will handle NATO spec, it will certainly safely handle +P.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 03-23-2011, 04:40 PM
BigBadAllis BigBadAllis is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I was wondering the same thing. Hopefully someone will chime in with some good facts.

Jason
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:22 PM
clcdawg's Avatar
clcdawg clcdawg is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 118
Likes: 6
Liked 19 Times in 9 Posts
Default

It will handle it. I shoot gold dot 124 +p in mine. I believe the manual says +p+ ammo may increase wear on your firearm. I don’t believe it says you can't shoot it. I could be wrong but I believe it says something to that nature.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-23-2011, 07:36 PM
agksimon's Avatar
agksimon agksimon is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 834
Likes: 232
Liked 272 Times in 173 Posts
Default

Taken from the manual:

“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety
built into some revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
This ammunition should not be used in Smith & Wesson
medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such
pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the
absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the
frame (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is
in the open position).
“Plus-P-Plus (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates
that it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated.
Some brands of ammunition may cause difficulty in extracting
spent cartridge cases from the cylinder or chamber. If this
situation occurs, thoroughly clean the cylinder charge holes or
chamber with solvent. If this condition persists, we recommend
changing to another brand of ammunition.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-23-2011, 08:37 PM
5906fan 5906fan is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 434
Likes: 480
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Default

based on my observations of the 5900 series 9mm a 'carry load' of +P ammo may be actually preferred to the std factory 124gr.
try the Speer 'gold dot' 124 gr +P 'swat team' load for functioning at the range when you're comparing 'premium' loads. expensive though. and if you find they do well you may as well go ahead and order spare recoil springs maybe 2-3 lbs over factory spec.
Rem makes their Gloden Sabre in +P too.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:15 PM
97thSignalman's Avatar
97thSignalman 97thSignalman is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Posts: 132
Likes: 5
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Default What S&W Factory says about +P ammo

Here is exactly what the S&W manual for M&P pistols says:

“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety.
Use of “Plus-P” ammunition may result in the need for more
frequent service.
“Plus-P-Plus” (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that
it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated
and could be DANGEROUS.


Whatever ammo you select, the more powerful it is, the more rapid the wear on the gun will be. Evey shot shortens a gun's service interval. How much depends on the ammo.

They really don't want to have +P+ stuff in their guns. And it makes sense. There are no established SAAMI standards for the mythical +P+ stuff so how could any manufacturer approve its use?

Last edited by 97thSignalman; 03-26-2011 at 05:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 03-07-2014, 07:49 PM
gunslyngr gunslyngr is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: michigan city in
Posts: 2
Likes: 4
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default gunslyngr

I've fired about 1500 rnds of plus p through my m&p with no obvious problems. I do recommend a stronger spring rate though.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-07-2014, 10:29 PM
The Sarge The Sarge is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 226
Likes: 50
Liked 135 Times in 57 Posts
Default

SAAMI Specs for 9mm are:

Standard Pressure: 35,000psi
NATO: 36,500psi
+P: 38,000
+P+: Not recognized or regulated

9mm NATO is "slightly warm" but certainly not +P+ or even +P. At times NATO Spec 9mm is confused with some of the various military subgun and carbine 9mm which is screaming hot. The M&P pistols will do just fine with 9mm +P as it is a recognized loading by SAAMI. Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 03-07-2014, 10:49 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
SWCA Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,907
Likes: 3,513
Liked 6,728 Times in 2,620 Posts
Default

I think the current service pistols thrive on hotter ammo, whether it is +P or +P+. I have not had any issues whatsoever with either +P or +P+ in any Glock or M&P pistol.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-07-2014, 10:57 PM
Justin69 Justin69 is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 331
Likes: 77
Liked 74 Times in 59 Posts
Default

I have never understood the allure of using +p or +p+ ammo. If you have any doubt about the safety of it, I would stay away from it. & why would someone want to take the chance of prematurely aging a fine m&p? I must be getting old. I just don't get it.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 03-07-2014, 11:25 PM
90crvtec 90crvtec is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 104
Likes: 20
Liked 58 Times in 33 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin69 View Post
I have never understood the allure of using +p or +p+ ammo. If you have any doubt about the safety of it, I would stay away from it. & why would someone want to take the chance of prematurely aging a fine m&p? I must be getting old. I just don't get it.
I might as well add my 2c even though no one seems to notice that this is a 3 year old thread that got bumped.

+P ammo makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons. In terms of the M&P, it was actually designed to fire 40 S&W. The 9mm versions are more than capable of handling the slightly higher pressure +P ammunition. The PSI figures have already been posted but, +P ammunition is around 10% hotter than "standard pressure" ammo. We aren't talking about major differences here. I think most guys see +P on the box and assume some kind of nuclear concoction of lead/copper/sudden death.

+P allows defensive ammo to perform better in short barrel guns. This is especially important because all of today's hollow points have to reach a "critical escape velocity" to perform well. Most guys will take their favorite hollow point that performed well in a 4 inch barrel, stoke it up in their 3 inch barreled 9mm Shield, and just assume all is well. Not so. That 3 inch barrel will barely generate enough velocity to allow the bullet to perform adequately. A +P round allows the bullet to achieve that sweet spot in velocity and perform as intended even when fired from a shorter barrel.

It's also a fact that most guys are pushing it if they can get 1000rds a year through their gun. A couple boxes of +P here and there to test functionality will do nothing to "wear" the firearm in any measurable way. We would need to feed it a steady diet of +P many thousands of rounds over to even start to see the difference between +P and standard pressure. It's more internet hype and myth than actual consequence.

Now if you want to talk +P+, that's a totally different ball game. As another poster has already alluded, +P+ isn't standardized and can indeed be much hotter than what would be considered "safe". However, for a well designed, brand name gun like the M&P, +P is a complete non-issue. For those carrying shorter barrel variants (9c, M&P Shield, etc.) I wouldn't carry anything but +P ammo.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's irresponsible to carry non +P ammo in the shorter barreled guns but, it's certainly sub optimal and I think most people are oblivious to this. The ammo industry could do a better job explaining that all these ccw friendly pistols also fall out of the operational design parameters of most standard pressure hollow points. And so, that is one reason why it's actually preferred to use +P ammunition.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 03-07-2014, 11:26 PM
nocents's Avatar
nocents nocents is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: s.w.Ohio
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 4,000
Liked 2,808 Times in 1,168 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin69 View Post
I have never understood the allure of using +p or +p+ ammo. If you have any doubt about the safety of it, I would stay away from it. & why would someone want to take the chance of prematurely aging a fine m&p? I must be getting old. I just don't get it.
I GET it......it falls in the realm that more and or bigger is better.......I bet you're not too old to understand that....but I figure I don't need hot loads to punch holes in paper
__________________
witty signature goes here
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 03-07-2014, 11:56 PM
fdw fdw is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,644
Likes: 1,351
Liked 1,478 Times in 626 Posts
Default

My SD ammo is Corbon DPX 115 +p. No problem or problems... (it's hot... just like my wife )

Last edited by fdw; 03-08-2014 at 12:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 03-08-2014, 02:09 AM
Badkarma 1's Avatar
Badkarma 1 Badkarma 1 is offline
US Veteran
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: East St. Louis, Il.
Posts: 1,698
Likes: 3,592
Liked 617 Times in 343 Posts
Default

Curiously my load of choice is the Speer 124gr. Gold Dot+P in my 9mm handguns. This is the load of choice of the NYPD.
But I have used and notice that the 147gr JHP is the current load of choice of the FBI, and DPS.
Noted competition shooter Todd G. Took an M&P9 FS to 67,000 rounds sand shot the above load in the program along with others.
If I decided tomorrow to change loads it'd be the 147gr. Federal HST standard pressure.
+P+ was an attempt to get .357 Magnum ballistics outta the 9mm, if you want that then get a .357 SIG chambered pistol or the Magnum!
9mm works ya just gotta practice.
Dale
__________________
"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Last edited by Badkarma 1; 03-08-2014 at 12:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 03-08-2014, 11:13 AM
The Sarge The Sarge is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 226
Likes: 50
Liked 135 Times in 57 Posts
Default

Just some food for thought. Above all, use what you believe in and have confidence with. The engineers at the Federal Cartridge Company and Winchester LE Divisions recommend a 147gr 9mm loading out of short barrel 9mms. Bullets such as the 147gr Federal HST and Winchester Ranger T are not velocity dependent to perform and they expand over a wide range of velocity out of any barrel length. The +P loadings require more barrel length to completely burn their powder and get up to speed. Often their hollow point designs have a narrower window of expansion and are more velocity dependent to expand. +P loadings in short barrels may not have enough dwell time to reach full potential. A heavy bullet out of a short barrel will loose the least amount of velocity. In any barrel length 9mm I carry for serious business it is loaded with the standard pressure 147gr Federal HST. Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 03-08-2014, 01:13 PM
90crvtec 90crvtec is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 104
Likes: 20
Liked 58 Times in 33 Posts
Default

We cover this in the reloading section a lot. The barrel being too short to fully burn powder isn't really an issue. For instance, a slow burning powder in a 6 inch barrel loaded to magnum pressures will still also be the fastest when fired from a 2 inch barrel. So if we fire +P from a 4 inch barrel, it will be faster than if the same bullet is fired from a 3 inch barrel. However, +P fired from a 3 inch barrel will be much closer to a standard pressure round fired from a 4 inch barrel. The goal is to get close to that velocity spread of a service-length handgun barrel to allow the ammunition to perform as designed.

Check out the ammo tests from TNoutdoors9, PockGunsandGear, and Shootingthebull410 (all have youtube channels). The +P ammunition consistently performs better out of short barrels, especially firearms with barrels under 3.5 inches.

Speer is the only company I am aware of that specifically produces bullets designed for short barrels. All the other guys (winchester, federal, remington, hornady) just use the same bullet design for standard and +P. In order to get that bullet design to open up, it has to be driven faster to get back into the sweet spot when fired from a short barrel.

The only exception to this rule is the Winchester Ranger +P+ loading. These are still designed to be fired from service-length pistol barrels and will not reliably expand when fired from short barrels, even though it is +P+. This is entirely due to bullet design and less a function of velocity. Besides this one round, the HSTs, Gold Dots, PDX1s, Golden Sabers, Hydra Shoks, Critical Duty, and many other rounds will perform most reliably from a short barrel at +P loadings.

I agree that using a heavy-for-caliber bullet can be a good strategy for short barrel defense pistols. However, I encourage you to watch some of the ammo tests, they might surprise you. Many standard pressure, highly respected rounds fail to expand when fired through 4 layers of denim in a 3 inch barrel. If we take the same round and the same gun, and just fire it at +P velocities, it gets back into the performance window that it was intended for.

It's also worth noting that often times, firing +P ammunition from a service length barrel will result in LESS penetration because the bullet is now starting to be over driven and will expand much faster. It will dump more energy in a shorter track of penetration. So there's always this compromise of trying to find enough expansion, and enough penetration. Usually if we have too much of one, we don't get enough of the other. But now this is starting to stray off topic. As you can probably tell, this is of great interest to me and it can be quite interesting to follow because the results aren't always what we would expect to see.

Here's a very recent test comparing +P 124grn gold dots out of a 3 inch barrel. He also references another test where he used standard pressure gold dots of the same weight. The difference in performance is dramatic. He has also tested some heavy-for-caliber 9mm ammunition as well.
Ammo Quest 9mm: Gold Dot 124-grain +P, regular vs. short barrel in ballistic gel - YouTube

The main thing that I've learned is to not adopt the old adage "if the police use it, it must be good". Law enforcement agencies are only interested in what will perform out of their issued firearms, which rarely match up to the smaller, more compromised guns that most of us will carry. As a result, it's a bit of a false pretense to just base the performance of ammunition on the narrow focus that law enforcement agencies place on it with their service weapons. It's also worth noting that when short barrels are allowed in a law enforcement setting (off duty carry, backup carry), one of the most recommended rounds for revolvers is actually the Speer Short Barrel +P loading. In my opinion, this is an endorsement from law enforcement agencies all but admitting their service length high performance bullets don't deliver the goods out of a short barrel unless driven back into that velocity sweet spot. And even then, they still recommend a bullet design for short barrels, the Gold Dot 135grn, that will allow it to open at lower velocities (lighter bullet, bigger cavity, softer lead core).
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 03-10-2014, 02:36 PM
Lincoln9 Lincoln9 is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

I just picked up a Shield in 9MM and had the same questions so I asked S & W directly. The response, "You can use +P ammunition, but using +P+ ammunition will void the warranty".
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-25-2014, 03:41 PM
Lincoln9 Lincoln9 is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Seems Speer Gold Dot 9MM +P short barrel is not to be found so I had an extensive discussion with Corbon. They have tested their SD ammo in 3" and longer barrels. They recommend the 115 grain +P in their original JHP line. The 125 +P could over penetrate due to the 3.1" barrel on the Shield. The DPX line is for deep penetration up to 18" deep and they caution using it in a crowded setting such as a mall which seems to contraindicate the use of the ammo as a SD round to me but that is what their tech people told me. I will report back once I put 100 rounds down range this weekend. For the military amongst us, Corbon offers a nice discount!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-25-2014, 03:53 PM
90crvtec 90crvtec is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 104
Likes: 20
Liked 58 Times in 33 Posts
Default

While all of the Speer "short barrel" loadings are tough to find right now, the 9mm 124grn +P in non-short-barrel is quite plentiful. In the case of the 9mm, both of the 124grn +P loadings perform very similarly. I wouldn't be worried to sub in the standard Speer 124grn +P in a 9mm sub compact such as the Shield.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-25-2014, 11:11 PM
Don 73's Avatar
Don 73 Don 73 is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 606
Likes: 179
Liked 438 Times in 208 Posts
Default

All my SD ammo (for my 9) is Winchester T Series +P+ 127 gr. I have fired a few hundred of these rounds through my 9c and it performs flawlessly. Of course I used standard pressure FMJ rounds for range and practice so it's not like I'm TRYING to see if my gun will blow up. Too, I am leaning toward the argument that in a short barreled gun the higher pressure rounds will give the velocity needed for the bullet to perform properly.
__________________
Don
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-26-2014, 12:29 AM
90crvtec 90crvtec is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 104
Likes: 20
Liked 58 Times in 33 Posts
Default

Unfortunately though, the T series do not perform well in short barrel guns. They were designed to perform at full velocities from a service length barrel, even though they are already loaded to +P+. In bare gel the bullets look impressive. But when faced with common clothing barriers, they will almost always clog and fail to perform when fired from shorter barrels. They do a very effective impersonation of a Nato +P 9mm FMJ, if there was such a thing.

We should add a caveat that using +P in a short barrel is a more reliable indicator of bullet performance, provided the bullet is not engineered to only perform at the upper ends of velocity extremes that can only be achieved in a service length barrel.

While +P is preferred in a short barrel, the bullet design is equally important. The more "modern" hollow point designs that we can buy now still have a narrow operating window. The difference is that window has been moved into a middle spread of usable velocity, velocities that are generally accessible at +P loadings out of a short barrel. Contrast this with something like the Ranger T, a bullet design from the 90s that literally needs to be over driven out of a 4.5+ inch barrel to start to perform. That bullet has no hope of performing consistently in a shorter barrel. The newer bullet designs are just more accommodating at lower velocities while still allowing some expansion to occur.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-26-2014, 02:30 AM
Vinney47's Avatar
Vinney47 Vinney47 is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 524
Likes: 211
Liked 245 Times in 154 Posts
Default

My CCW is an M&P9c, and my prefered ammo for carry is the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +p round. It's not 147gr, but it's still on the heavier end of 9mm bullets. This, along with the velocity and bullet design, lend to improved penetration of clothing/bone/etc and proper expansion. They function 100% out of my pistol.

Plus, you get 25 per box where some other SD ammo is only 20
__________________
686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-26-2014, 07:25 AM
Don 73's Avatar
Don 73 Don 73 is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 606
Likes: 179
Liked 438 Times in 208 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
Unfortunately though, the T series do not perform well in short barrel guns. They were designed to perform at full velocities from a service length barrel, even though they are already loaded to +P+. In bare gel the bullets look impressive. But when faced with common clothing barriers, they will almost always clog and fail to perform when fired from shorter barrels. They do a very effective impersonation of a Nato +P 9mm FMJ, if there was such a thing.

We should add a caveat that using +P in a short barrel is a more reliable indicator of bullet performance, provided the bullet is not engineered to only perform at the upper ends of velocity extremes that can only be achieved in a service length barrel.

While +P is preferred in a short barrel, the bullet design is equally important. The more "modern" hollow point designs that we can buy now still have a narrow operating window. The difference is that window has been moved into a middle spread of usable velocity, velocities that are generally accessible at +P loadings out of a short barrel. Contrast this with something like the Ranger T, a bullet design from the 90s that literally needs to be over driven out of a 4.5+ inch barrel to start to perform. That bullet has no hope of performing consistently in a shorter barrel. The newer bullet designs are just more accommodating at lower velocities while still allowing some expansion to occur.

If that does turn out to be the case, since I am required to carry the T Series, I'll just have to rely on my ability to place multiple rounds center mass, but after shooting a wounded deer with low-velocity .45 T Series rounds and seeing the expansion from them (both rounds expanded perfectly), I have a feeling that the 9mm rounds at 950-1100 FPS would perform adequately even through clothing.
__________________
Don
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-26-2014, 09:49 AM
90crvtec 90crvtec is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 104
Likes: 20
Liked 58 Times in 33 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don 73 View Post
after shooting a wounded deer with low-velocity .45 T Series rounds and seeing the expansion from them (both rounds expanded perfectly), I have a feeling that the 9mm rounds at 950-1100 FPS would perform adequately even through clothing.
It's interesting that you mention the performance of the .45 ACP version. What I've noticed in most independent tests is that the majority of 45ACP hollow points from major manufacturers, even the older designs, tend to perform pretty well. I think this is a combination of the already lower velocities of 45ACP, bullet weight, and the wider bullet cavity that can be afforded in a larger bullet. Those 3 things tend to result in a bullet that is more likely to open up. Just the lower velocity of 45ACP means that the manufacturer has to design for that characteristic, which also tends to favor the shorter barrel carry pistols, even if that wasn't the intended goal.

However, the T series for other calibers such as .40 and 9mm have consistently shown failure to expand when fired through a "normal" clothing barrier that would commonly be encountered in a self defense scenario.

Like you say, shot placement is still the most important thing, an FMJ in the vitals is better than a hollowpoint fired on a miss into a dirt berm.

Here are some tests where the 9mm +P+ consistently fails to expand:
Winchester Ranger T-Series 9mm +P+ 127 gr JHP AMMO TEST - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC_mnlsM1nA

Unfortunately even the 40 caliber 165grn T series consistently fails to expand when fired through clothing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPtT5TCgUk

It's interesting to note that both the 165grn .40 cal test and TNoutdoor's 9mm +p+ tests were fired from guns with a 4 inch barrel, not exactly compact. Both still failed to perform even at the higher velocities.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-26-2014, 10:31 AM
getoff getoff is offline
Member
9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition 9mm +p ammunition  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL Panhandle these days
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 941
Liked 525 Times in 269 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badkarma 1 View Post
Curiously my load of choice is the Speer 124gr. Gold Dot+P in my 9mm handguns. This is the load of choice of the NYPD.
But I have used and notice that the 147gr JHP is the current load of choice of the FBI, and DPS.
Noted competition shooter Todd G. Took an M&P9 FS to 67,000 rounds sand shot the above load in the program along with others.
If I decided tomorrow to change loads it'd be the 147gr. Federal HST standard pressure.
+P+ was an attempt to get .357 Magnum ballistics outta the 9mm, if you want that then get a .357 SIG chambered pistol or the Magnum!
9mm works ya just gotta practice.
Dale
Plus one on the 147 standard HST. if it can be found, good old Winchester Silvertip super X in standard 115 gr. are still awesome. 1225 at the muzzle, 1150 at 25 yds. that stuff goes in my XDS 9mm right nice. the Barnes tac x, ( i think) is a favorite among the local LEO set. it's hard to find though.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
beretta, cartridge, k frame, k-frame, military, s&w, sig arms, solvent, winchester

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
44-40 ammunition panamajack310 Ammo 60 03-11-2017 09:50 AM
PPU ammunition Wahoo57 Ammo 27 03-12-2016 01:41 PM
Ammunition Wayne937 Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 14 02-09-2014 02:22 AM
RAM ammunition oneyeopn Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 4 02-23-2012 03:01 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:14 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)