Need help. I am using Win 231 for 147 grain 9mm lead bullet. The results are not so hot. Big groups at 25 yards. I am working on the problem. I think I might be crimping them too much. I am using a Lee factory crimp die. I am getting a few keyholes. I have seen that done with a 45 acp with too much crimp.

Can anyone suggest a better powder? I want to load to 900 feet per second. That is a power factor of 132.3. More than enough for USPSA Production minor. Thanks

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old not on active duty Marine

I think you'll have a better chance of getting an answer to this in the RELOADING sub-forum.

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Steve
NJ State Trooper (rtd)

Right off the top of my head, I have three powders around the house that should get you there: Unique, Power Pistol, and Blue Dot. I'm sure many others would work as well.

Power Pistol will work very well for what you want - meters well, very good velocity and excellent accuracy. Start at 3.4 grains and work your way up to about 4 grains. Use a medium taper crimp and adjust OAL using your barrel so the bullet is just off the rifling.

PP is a very good powder for 9mm. However it is a little smoky and has quite a flash so is not the best for indoor tactical matches.

First of all I suggest you join the Brian Enos Forums if you are involved in shooting USPSA or IDPA. As far as powders for 147g 9mm, the most popular and best powder used by shooters on the BE forum is VV N320-anywhere from 3.3 to 3.5g. Other popular powders for this weight include Solo 1000 and Titegroup. More details regarding these powders and others is available on the Forum.

Thanks for the replies. I will check the other forums.

P.S. I checked the reloading forum. Read a lot of posts. Did not find any answers the were better than what is here all ready. Still working on it.

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old not on active duty Marine

IIRC, I used around 4.3 gr Unique to produce loads just a hair under 900 fps with Zero 147 gr JHP bullets. Checking the Alliant Reloading Data site, my velocity was somewhat lower than they get with Speer Gold Dots and their test devices.

You didn't mention your powder charge, the velocity or the data source of your 231 loads. WW data tends to be optimistic since they use test barrels that have dead minimum dimensional specs. Low velocities can also produce big groups since your wibbles & wobbles have more time to effect the bullet while it's on the way down the barrel.

A 125 truncated cone bullet with a wide grease groove will do minor with ease, minimal leading and cost less than 147s.

I currently load 3.5 grains of 231 behind 147 grain Berry's bullets, and have loaded 3.4 grains of 231 behind 147 grain Black Bullet International, as well as 147 grain cast bullets and had excellent results with all three bullets. These loads all functioned well and gave good accuracy in a Caspian 1911, a STI Trojan and a Springfield XD. I don't believe the powder is the problem, but if you want to eliminate the powder as a variable, let me suggest trying WSF (Winchester Super Field).

I found the problem. Too little crimp. I was using 3.6 Win 231 with a Moly coated lead 147 grain TC. My source for the load was the 48th edition of the Lyman Reloading manual. I use data for 147 grain jacketed, started low and worked up. I also have older manuals giving 3.5 as max. Also queried on this forum.

I shot last night in a practice session at our gun club. This time I paid attention to what was happening to the bullets. The bullets were moving forward and coming loose from the case. The magazine would hold them and would feed. But when I removed the magazine and cleared the pistol the top bullet in the magazine fell out. The beginning round in a mag would be loud but as the bullets loosened some of the later rounds would almost sound like squibs. I won't know for sure until I re-crimp and test fire them. I will post the results.

Thanks again for replies. Power Pistol and WSF are on my list to try out.

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old not on active duty Marine

The Lee factory crimp die may be sizing down the bullet ion the case and causing your problem. I avoid using the Lee FCD znd use a normal taper crimp die. When I shnot lead bullets out of my 9mm pistols the 147 gr. ;ead bullet and W-231 provided excellent accuracy.

That is what I thought first. But I am standing there after shooting and the top bullet & powder drops on the floor empty brass still in the magazine. I have shot several thousand re-loads with the settings one the press and dies. Now this.

I measured some factory rounds and they had a crimp diameter of .380 to .379. The rounds I had re-loaded had the same diameter. I squeezed some down a few thousandth. I will test them. The moly acts as lubricant I think.

Thanks for telling me about the Reloading Forum. Didn't know. I will spending some time there. And here too.

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old not on active duty Marine

I gave up on lead and plated bullets in 147 after a bunch of testing.

Have settled on Precision Delta 147 gr. on top of 3.4 gr of Tightgroup. This combo in a Glock 19 gives an average of 921 fps, and a XD(m) and average of 914 fps.

Looking forward to hearing how you work through this.

If you've just started loading 9mm, it could be that your neck expanding is excessive. You may want to check the depth you're running that expander plug to. I'm assuming that your brass isn't worn out and has no elasticity left.

I have been re-loading 9mm since 2002, about 6000 rounds. (When I started shooting 9mm case price was $5.79 a box at Dick's. ) I have not changed anything except the bullet seater & crimper. All except for 1500 have been Rainier 124 g round nose. 1000 were moly 124 g and 500 were Oregon bullets at 147 lead. No problems noted except for leading using the moly 124 g. The leading was caused by excessive crimping and was the last time I adjusted the crimp die. At least 2000 rounds since that adjustment.

I shot at USPSA distances. Now I am extending my range to 20 and 25 yards. (50 yards is the goal) I have improved but not where I want to be. Now I find be it could be my re-loads.

Yes, when I shoot the up 147 gr I will switch back to 124 g. In fact I have about 1500 124 Rainiers left and if the problem with the 147 g moly lead is not solved I will use them for practice only.

Going to the indoor range today to test the rounds with a heavier crimp.

BTW, I am having fun. Any excuse to shoot more!

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old not on active duty Marine

Just back from the range. I had put a tighter crimp on both the 147 grain moly and the 124 grain Rainiers round nose bullets. About .002 or so heavier crimp.

A tighter crimp seems to solve the problem. More testing is needed but I got good ignition and consistent firing rounds. Not like before. I will get out the Chrony as soon as it gets nice.

I will know more next Tuesday after I shoot at our USPSA Practice.

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old not on active duty Marine

I agree with the other fellas. Power Pistol works well in my .38 Spl., 9mm, and 45 ACP. It is a slow powder so it fills the case more - less chance of a double charge. Have you ever tried Precision Bullets out of Kemp, TX? They are polymer coated and do not foul the bore much. Easy to clean. They are a LOT less expensive than Berry's or Ranier's. Just a thought.

BTW, I didn't know there is such a thing as an ex-Marine. The Commandant said in a December ALMAR that there are no longer former Marines. We a just no longer on active duty. Semper Fi. FO, 11th Marines, RVN, '70 - '71.

The idea is that I get the 147 grain bullets working. Then I make the choice between 125 g and 147 g. Something to be said for both. Something against.

I was going to wait until tonight when I will shoot my 9mm and have something to report. But the comment about Ex-Marine requires a reply. I agree: Once, always. After over 50 years something USMC still catches my eye and my attention. (61 - 65) When I cowboy shoot Wildbunch with my 1911, my military uniform has Marine emblems and markings. Maybe I should use X-Marine. No that's not right. Sounds like a reject for a G.I. Joe movie or X-Men episode. Still it will take 9 people to get me back in: 6 pall bears, 2 road guards, and someone to call cadence. (Old Marine Corps joke. )

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old not on active duty Marine