What about the SD?

[Flork]

Hi guys,

So my technical mind was wandering the other night as I sat killing shotgun wielding midgets while playing Border Lands and I got to thinking about the M&P versus the SD......Don't ask me how I go from that to parts design, because it's a long and complicated string of thought processes that I don't even understand.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.....the M&P and the SD.

I realize that the SD is basically a budget version hybrid of the M&P and Sigma, which isn't such a bad thing when I think about it. With the way te economy has been in the past few years, people can't afford to spend as much on guns, so they're tending to buy cheaper guns so they can still afford to buy ammo. That's a big part of why we created the Drop in parts for the M&P like we did, so people could afford to have a nice feeling trigger with out breaking the bank.



The SD seems to get a bad reputation due to the bad trigger from the factory, but I'm working to fix it. I've got a SD 40 in the shop right now that I've been playing with for a few months on and off and I have to say I really like this gun and here's why

1) It's slimmer than the M&P.

2) Has the same ergonomic feel in my hand and points just as well.

3) The Recoil impulse is attenuated by the grip angle just like the M&P.

4) Stout construction, not that the M&P is poorly built but they're both solid guns

5) The Striker Block can be removed without removing the rear sight....and anybody who's installed an Apex M&P USB knows how awesome that would be.

and

6) The Price is right for those who want a first gun or something that just works.


So I've been working on improvements for the SD. The Stock trigger pull in the gun I have was right at 9lbs and gritty with a double click in the reset which made it hard to shoot well. So I worked on developing a spring kit for the SD that would improve the trigger pull weight and reduce if not remove the Double Click in the reset and I'm happy to report my prototypes have proven to be successful. When I drop in the springs the trigger goes to 6.5lbs and the double click in the reset is gone.

Trigger pull weight wasn't enough for me, I wanted to remove most of the .065" over travel in my SD so I spent a few hours prototyping an Over Travel Stop for the SD and I'm pleased to say that it's working perfectly. I'll be working on production prototypes over the next few weeks and will be working on releasing the kit as soon as possible.

The question I have for all of you SD owners is: How interested would you be in improving the trigger on your SD to make it a far superior machine than it was before?

Scott @ Apex

[presspics]

Well Scott, I'm the guy that has been talking to you about the SD pistol over on FaceBook. You know how I feel. The SD is a superb gun for the reasons that you stated above and more. I like the fact that it's trigger mechanism is a lot simpler than the M&P. The SD has large robust parts not small springs, sears and plungers like the M&P. It is a superb combat pistol. I'll buy whatever you make for the SD

[jppezz23]

I think my SD40 is fine just the way it is.

[Backon4]

I too think the SD is fine the way it is. I do also think there will be plenty of people who will see this as the little bit it needs to make it a good IDPA or other competition gun. I have the SD9 and SD40 and my SD40 is right at 7.8lbs and the SD9 is 8.5lbs. So I guess there is a wide range of weights in these. The only grit mine seemed to have was the trigger bar dragging inside the grip frame. a tiny dab of lithium grease cleared it right up.

I am glad you are working on a kit as I am sure it will help to get the word out that these are fantastic guns.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I would buy the kit.

[mlk18]

I have handled quite a few SD9's always with the intention of buying one but never quite getting myself to fork over the dough. I want one, I love the ergonomics, fit and finish is very good, etc., etc. But I was not impressed with the trigger (not awful, just not to my liking). I already have an SW9E with an amazing trigger (DIY trigger job) and an M&P9 FS with an Apex DCAEK. Both guns are tack drivers, both guns have been 100% reliable and both guns were worth every penny. But only the M&P with it's Apex kit is going to ride in a holster (on or off duty). My point; I would buy a brand new SD9 in the next month or two if there was an Apex kit available for it. If no kit goes on the market I will probably hold out until I can find a used one on the cheap and start working on the trigger myself. I guess that makes mine a YES vote.

[S&W Rover]

I voted "yes" on the SigForum page to Flork's posting of the same question, so my vote doesn't count here... but I'd go for it, given a reasonable price.

I really like my SD9, and would like to see the trigger pull lowered a bit. Am tempted to try to remove the striker block and apply the Burwell treatment to round it out more, and would be happy to buy one from Apex that is rounded. (I don't think there is a YouTube video on removing the SD striker block, but presume it has something to do with removing that tiny roll pin holding the ejector...).

I installed the Apex USB on my M&P 40 with magazine safety -- cannot install an Apex sear, as I am awaiting the right spring from S&W to remove the mag safety from the pin with the takedown safety, before I install the sear -- but with the USB alone, the M&P40 trigger improved significantly. That and an improved trigger bar, with perhaps less take-up (if that is the right term) and less re-set distance (you know what I mean) would make the SD9 a great gun.

Again, mine runs flawlessly and seems very robust. Bud's has them for $367, and if S&W puts out a $50 rebate on them in January, I might just get a SD40. At $317, it would be a real bargain.

[SMMAssociates]

Rover:

Scott may be the better authority, but I think you can remove that mag safety and use the original spring - maybe stretch it a bit. It's just there to keep the disassembly lever "in place" and not flopping around.

You might be able to scrounge a spring someplace.... 'bout half a ballpoint pen spring , or maybe something cut from a retired 1911 firing pin spring....

Back to topic.... I don't know that I want an SD, but to be honest, I haven't looked at 'em yet. My experience with the Sigmas is not good, and I think a 5#-ish trigger is a necessity for something I'd care to wear.

That all said, $90-ish for a drop-in DIY trigger job, which is essentially what you get, probably is worthwhile. 'Course, there's always the question of the guys buying the SD knowing about it, or being able/willing to get involved.

I don't claim to be a gunsmith (getting the grips back on the right sides of a 1911 is about all I'd guarantee), but as a 1911 guy, you have to have the skills needed to stick a DCAEK kit into an M&P, more or less, just to really clean one.... I'm starting to believe that you need to be able to pull the extractor, too, for proper cleaning of an M&P.

(We won't mention a certain sear return spring and plunger flying into oblivion.... Except to thank Randy for doing the MA-compliant fix for me, and installing the new spring and plunger .)

Regards,

[S&W Rover]

Stu -

Thanks for tip on the spring -- that would work!

I found a M&P armorer's manual on the web and found the number for the original part. I was ordering a new striker assembly and some brown mag bottoms (to put on my 9mm mags, to tell them from my .40 mags) from S&W so decided to go ahead and order factory part.

After I get it in, I will install my extra Apex sear... then ship the firing block to Randy and ask for him to do the Mass. spring.

I like these M&Ps, but I like my SD9 too. I hope Flork can come up with something inexpensive (~$25) for the SD. Just improving (rounding) the striker block might help. Also, shaping the trigger bar to decrease the space that engages the sear a bit smaller could take out 1/8 inch of trigger takeup. We'll see!

[SMMAssociates]

Rover:

Scott'll come up with something. Then Randy will make another video and.... ....

Lisa's gotta be better looking....

I would love that job.... 'Course, I'm not much of a machinist. Semi-retired rent-a-cop and computer guy.... Among other things.... I was the guy who got asked to do stuff nobody else understood. Never a dull job, but you never quite knew what "today" would bring. But testing firearms.... (I used to do a lot of software betas. Maybe?)

I'm nuts enough to try that sear block mod DIY, but from what I'm hearing, you need a good mill and the proper cutter. I think I could afford the cutter, but the wife would never go for the mill. Besides, I still haven't been able to talk her into a drill press. Maybe not in the living room? (I'm still not much of a machinist, but the former day job had the right mill for this job, and I was allowed to use it. But that was nearly 20 years ago now, and the machinists I knew that went with the hardware when the place was sold are all retired or worse now....) (Dremel? Nah.... )

Regards,

[bassseeker]

I like my SD9 the way it is but would like the option of improving it in the future.

[Bompa]

It looks like Smith is not interested in making a Mass version of the SD..So I was wondering if you all could work some of your magic on the Sigma?? I have your sear in the M&P 9 and it made a world of difference,
just need to change the trigger spring and this old fool will be happy with it.. But back to the Sigma,is there anything you might be able to come up with to get a decent trigger pull ?? Must admit that I have been a 1911 shooter for a bit over 40 years and really like a 3.5 to 4.0 lb trigger..Guess that is not there for the Smith guns,inexpensively at least, because after the meds that come with getting old there is not much left for this hobby that I have enjoyed for so many years..
So if you all could do your thing for the Sigma I and many others would be forever happy..

[mlk18]

That is a good question. There are LOTS and LOTS of Sigma's out there and you would think a drop-in kit to get that trigger to a smooth 6lbs would be a HOT seller.

[SMMAssociates]

I've never had a Sigma apart (a buddy's daughter has one - it seemed better suited as a wheel chock for his truck), but if they're using the same drop safety plunger setup, a similar treatment might be quite simple. The issue being how DIY it is.... Same with a sear swap. The springs (not denying the engineering involved in getting the right springs into the mix) are probably the easiest part.

Apex probably isn't doing the Sigma 'cause, in a fit of common sense, CA won't let 'em into the state ....

Regards,

[Flork]

When we put out the SD video, I'm going to end up doing the video myself, strictly because it's one of my projects.

I hvaen't looked into the Sigmas at all, but I'll see if I can get my hands on one and go from there. I have so many irons in the fire right now that getting into new stuff is a huge undertaking. In an off the top of my head count, we're working on 13 total projects for 6 different makes of pistols....Plus some rifle stuff I'm playing with.

It looks like I'll have the SD prototype over travel stops for Shot Show in a few weeks, I'm pretty stoked about that.

I'll keep you guys posted as best I can.

Scott

[bluzman]

Originally Posted by SMMAssociates

Apex probably isn't doing the Sigma 'cause, in a fit of common sense, CA won't let 'em into the state ....

Regards,

Huh? Looks to me like Sigmas are on the CA DOJ approved list.

[leejack]

I haven't shot an SD yet, but I hear it's easier than the sigma (just internet hear say). Is this true?

If so, why the need to change it. The sigma isn't hard to shoot at all. If the SD is even better it would be like icing on the cake. Ideal for a home defense gun.

[presspics]

The SD doesn't need to be changed...some of us just like to make our guns "better"

[weyerbacher]

Glad I saw this thread. I saw an SD at my local Gander Mt. the other day and was wondering what the hell it was. It looked like somebody threw a Springfield XD and a Smith M&P into a blender and came out with the SD.

[Flork]

I just got my prototype Over Travel stops today from the machine shop, they're looking promising....very promising.

Scott @ Apex

[presspics]

SWEET!!!!! Can't wait to buy one!!

[Flork]

Soon my friend....soon. I'll have the production prototypes in hand within a week, then it's on to full production.

[S&W Rover]

Flork,

Based on your original posting... "5) The Striker Block can be removed without removing the rear sight....and anybody who's installed an Apex M&P USB knows how awesome that would be"... what are the odds of Apex making a rounded striker block for the SD, and someone with moderate skills like me being able to install it? (I installed the USB on two M&P's). Thanks.

[presspics]

S&W Rover, the striker block in the SD is already rounded. A little polishing it is all that is needed.

[Flork]

I've actually found that the SD block needs no modification to smooth out, just the spring we're making for it.

It looks like Smith got it right with the geometry on the Striker Block for the SD.

[S&W Rover]

Thanks -- I look forward to the spring -- the SD is a nice pistol, good value for money, too.

[lonestarlizard]

I am a new owner of an SD40 (as of yesterday) and I don't think the trigger is bad but it is still a heavier pull than I want. Has Scott posted anymore data on his drop-in kits?

[Flork]

I haven't posted anything else yet.

I set the SD aside to complete the J-Frame project. Now that it's done and being released soon, I'll be able to get back to the SD. The project is close to completion, so I should be able to get the SD kit out within the next month or so.

[lonestarlizard]

Scott, thanks for the response. Yesterday, I compared the trigger on an XD 9mm with my SD40. Without reservation, the trigger on the XD was smoother, lighter and just "felt better" than the SD.

I look forward to the release of your SD40 improvement.

[Flork]

I should have the SD trigger kits ready to roll shortly after the NRA show next weekend. I'll keep everybody posted on my results.

Scott