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Old 05-15-2011, 01:14 PM
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Default M&P9 vs Beretta M9A1

Hi guys,

Does anyone know of any tech articles comparing these 2 side-arms in terms of reliability, durability and accuracy?

I am reading that there are some occasional feeding and extractor issues with the M&P9 but S&W is fixing them promptly. Are these issues still popping up in the 2011 lots?

BTW, I am in the market for a new 9mm semi-auto.

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Old 05-15-2011, 03:00 PM
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I replied to your new member thread, but should add here that I bought a new M&P9 within the last 2 months, and I haven't had a single instance (about 400 rounds) where it didn't feed right, or didn't cycle properly, or failed to eject.
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:40 PM
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I bought an M&P 9 FS in May 2010 and fire either 100 or 200 rounds per week. Have had no failures at all.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:48 PM
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x3....my M&P9 has been flawless. Zero malfunctions, and no regrets on the purchase. Even considered the Beretta myself.
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Old 05-15-2011, 07:16 PM
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I have had a M&P9, and yesterday I bought a NIB M9. My reasons: I wanted a 9mm pistol for the range, and not for carry...I have other handguns for that role. I have a 9mm 1911, but I wanted a DA/SA pistol in 9mm too. I preferred metal, not polymer, and I wanted a safety/decocker. I wanted a pistol for which magazines and parts are usually available from aftermarket suppliers, and not just from the manufacturer. I wanted a pistol that is reliable and easy to maintain. That came down to a SIG or a M9/92FS for me.

I have had a SIG, in fact a couple of them, but I wanted something different. I like the feel of the M9, plus it's role in our military history was a positive for me...so that's what I got.

The M&P9 is a great pistol...but as I said, I didn't want polymer, so that put it out of the running for me. If you want the M&P9, it will be a great choice, and S&W has fantastic customer service if you ever do have a problem.
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Old 05-15-2011, 11:29 PM
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Thank you for all the juicy info you guys shared so far. They really helped.

Does anyone know if the show-stopping slider-lockup at around 20K rounds still exists in the current Beretta 92 family?
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Old 05-15-2011, 11:36 PM
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I had both an M&P9 and a Beretta 92fs and the Beretta was really something special. However, guys IDPA use the M&Ps a lot and so do police departments. Of course Armed forces issue Berettas' so I guess it comes down to what style pistol you prefer. Do want no saftey and a light trigger when you here the bump in the night or a hard first pull with optional saftey. If you plan on mexican carry defenitly go with the
Beretta to avoid shooting your junk.
In all seriousness If you want a range gun I'd go with the Beretta. So accurate and the trigger is great. I really regret selling the one I had, but I bought a police trade-in 5906 so I'm pretty happy shooting it. Good luck.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:24 AM
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Thanks, but isn't there a thumb safety lock on the M&P9 as well?
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:47 AM
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I was a Combat Arms Maintenance and Training (CATM) in the USAF. We instructed on and repaired all USAF small arms. For what it's worth and what I have seen I feel the M9 will break long before the M&P will. The part I saw break most often on the Beretta was the locking block. I have seen several dozen break.

I have a M&P and they are a much better firearm than the Beretta.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkytheman View Post
I had both an M&P9 and a Beretta 92fs and the Beretta was really something special. However, guys IDPA use the M&Ps a lot and so do police departments. Of course Armed forces issue Berettas' so I guess it comes down to what style pistol you prefer. Do want no saftey and a light trigger when you here the bump in the night or a hard first pull with optional saftey. If you plan on mexican carry defenitly go with the
Beretta to avoid shooting your junk.
In all seriousness If you want a range gun I'd go with the Beretta. So accurate and the trigger is great. I really regret selling the one I had, but I bought a police trade-in 5906 so I'm pretty happy shooting it. Good luck.
im looking for a range/target gun and i've actually been steered towards the m&p9 pro and away from the m9.. you're saying the opposite? do you really think it would be that much better?
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthury View Post
Thanks, but isn't there a thumb safety lock on the M&P9 as well?
You can get them with or without a thumb safety.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:01 AM
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The part I saw break most often on the Beretta was the locking block.
I've read about that...but it usually happens after a fairly high round count (over 10,000 rounds or more) doesn't it? Anyway, for a range gun, it's not a big concern to me. The locking block replacement kits are available on the Beretta website for $36.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
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I've read about that...but it usually happens after a fairly high round count (over 10,000 rounds or more) doesn't it? Anyway, for a range gun, it's not a big concern to me. The locking block replacement kits are available on the Beretta website for $36.
Some of ours broke on non training guns that only shot 100-300 rounds per year. So on average they would have anywhere from 3,000 on up on the round count. Problem was it was hard to estimate when they would break. Some lasted and some did not. There was no guidence from MAJCOM on replacing the locking blocks until they broke. I suggested that we replace them after x number of rounds but anyone in the military knows someone somewhere thinks it's their job to say "NO".
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC View Post
I've read about that...but it usually happens after a fairly high round count (over 10,000 rounds or more) doesn't it? Anyway, for a range gun, it's not a big concern to me. The locking block replacement kits are available on the Beretta website for $36.
The number that usually comes up when they do endurance testings on the 92-series is around 20,000 rounds. That's when it locks up.

The M&P endurance test lasted thru 60,000+ rounds before the slider cracks. S&W engineers says it's safe to continue but the lawyers intervened and the testing was halted.

I am not sure if the current production 92-series still have this 20K limitations. That's something I am hoping people here can help out.

Last edited by Arthury; 07-13-2011 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
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I was a Combat Arms Maintenance and Training (CATM) in the USAF. We instructed on and repaired all USAF small arms. For what it's worth and what I have seen I feel the M9 will break long before the M&P will. The part I saw break most often on the Beretta was the locking block. I have seen several dozen break.

I have a M&P and they are a much better firearm than the Beretta.
Thank you. That's really cool 1st hand info. Glad you shared!
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Old 05-16-2011, 06:11 PM
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Have the M&P 9mm full size and the Taurus PT-92 (M9 clone). Both guns are extremely accurate and shoot without a hitch, but there is just something about the M&P that keeps bringing me back to shooting it. It's my IDPA gun now and the one I shoot the most.

Absolutely love the M&P 9mm and don't think I'd ever get rid of it.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:49 PM
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The last two iterations of the Beretta 92 are the 90-TWO and the 92A1. Each of them has a recoil buffer which, I am told, will protect the gun from some degree of recoil induced stress.

At this point, each pistol has its devotees and detractors. Obviously, more practice and more comparison is required on my part - so I guess that just means I need to shoot more . . .
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:52 PM
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Of the M9 and Centurians I've shot, I was never very impressed with the overall accuracy. Then again, the Beretta did not fit my hand as well as a 1911, a Glock, and subsequently the M&P. I haven't shot an M&P 9, but from my experience with my 45 and testiments from other M&P shooters, it will likely hold its own.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:01 PM
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It's no competition gun, but when you want a cold hard steel semi-auto with the sexy looks to go with it, there is no where to go aside from the Beretta 92 and the 1911, IMO. The takedown is so simple; anyone can take it apart with just one hand.

Also the ergonomics are very good, and even better with the wrap-around hogue grips they have for these.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:47 AM
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FWIW, I own 3 M&P's and a 1911. Can't beat the 1911 for target shooting, but the M&P isn't far behind. For tactical shooting with time pressure, draws, reloads, multiple shot strings, etc., I much prefer the M&P.

I haven't shot the Beretta, but I tried the DA/SA style with an FNP-40 that I owned for several years. Beautiful gun, but the transition from DA to SA required concentration and practice. I always shot slightly lower qual scores with the FNP than with the M&P.

I've also owned a Glock and a Kahr and have shot quals with all of my pistols. My best scores and quickest times always came with my M&P's. I can shoot the gun quickly and accurately with minimal effort. Inside of 15 yards I can shoot off the front sight without even worrying about the rear sight alignment because the gun points so naturally. Inside of 7 yards I don't need the sights, the gun shoots where I'm looking.

Long winded way of saying that I finally realized that if I ever need to use a pistol to defend myself or my family, I want an M&P in my hand.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:42 AM
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Does anyone know how many lbs is the default factory setting of the M&P9 trigger like?

I am looking for one with a thumb lock but they are not widely available. When they do show up, they're sold with a regular retail pricing. Looks like more LEO prefer the no-safety version.
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:29 PM
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"Long winded way of saying that I finally realized that if I ever need to use a pistol to defend myself or my family, I want an M&P in my hand."
this was a nuget of truth. I have lived with a browning high power for over thirty years... 1st time I picked up a m&p, it felt better than my high powers. If I were starting over, m&p all the way. will I get one now? not to sure I need one BUT may have one fall into my lap when you least expect it!!! good pointing gun. great feel. feel = subjective???
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Old 05-22-2011, 10:04 PM
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Maybe one of these days, I'll get a M&P9c. I have had 12 Glocks, but no Smiths other than revolvers. I don't like the idea of having to spend a lot of money for the Apex. I can get 4.5# Glock connectors for $20 and polish them and I have a nice trigger.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:12 AM
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I'm a new shooter and i've shot the M&p9c and 92fs, and I shot better on the 92fs but i credit that mainly to the less felt recoil on the Beretta (due to weight) and the fact that it was fullsize. Slide was noticeably easier to rack on the 92fs as well. Also the M&p9c was a Mass. version w/ the 10lb trigger, so i guess that didn't help my accuracy.

I own the M&p9c and thinking of a Beretta in the future as well. I've always wanted all metal gun and the Beretta is at the top of the list (and the 1911 as well).

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Old 05-23-2011, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkygod View Post
I'm a new shooter and i've shot the M&p9c and 92fs, and I shot better on the 92fs but i credit that mainly to the less felt recoil on the Beretta (due to weight) and the fact that it was fullsize. Slide was noticeably easier to rack on the 92fs as well. Also the M&p9c was a Mass. version w/ the 10lb trigger, so i guess that didn't help my accuracy.

I own the M&p9c and thinking of a Beretta in the future as well. I've always wanted all metal gun and the Beretta is at the top of the list (and the 1911 as well).
Try an M&P 9 Pro 5" with 4# trigger compared to the M9 and then come back with a report.
Several of the active officers on the nearby airbase (I'm retired now) are also qualified on the M9, and own 1911's and M&P 9 Pros. We can all shoot the 9 Pros better than our expensive 1911s, and way faster than the M9.
You don't see many Berettas in competition for long before the owner buys a different gun.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:00 PM
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Well, first, allow me to thank all of you for your unselfish sharing of information; especially, your experiences. I truly enjoyed reading this thread and listening to how you responsed to my original question.

I have since applied for my CPL, received it and drove down to Quantico Tactical and bought my M&P9. The folks there are great to work with and I highly recommend them.

The M&P9 is a beautiful machine, it functions much sleeker than my .38 sp and 357 Mag revolvers.

The only thing I do not like about it is the magazine. Loading the first 2-3 rounds was difficult but OK. Beyond the first few rounds, the spring gets more and more wound so, it takes a lot more pushing and shoving. It stresses me a bit because I am afraid that a missed shove can accidentally whack the primer and discharge the round. The last thing I want to see is a cartoon character discharging a round in his home while loading up the magazine.

A few images ...





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Old 06-10-2011, 05:16 PM
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Get a Glock 17 But seriously, most of this is a preference issue. I prefer Glocks (and prefer the SIG in a DA/SA) but the M&P and M9 are both good guns.

One thing I would note is that from all the conversations I've had with military folks, the majority of them were not particularly fond of the M9. It is a 1970s design and is big and heavy for a 9MM. I've also heard a lot of complaints about breakage.

The Charlotte police department here issues the M&P 40. While some officers I shoot with would prefer a Glock, SIG, etc., I haven't heard anyone say they'd prefer an M9. The M&P is not my favorite but it is a good gun.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:31 PM
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I have the M&P9c and the Beretta 92fs. So far the M&P9c is more accurate for me than the 92fs! May try hogue grips on the 92fs, they get good reviews.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:16 AM
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The magazines will become easy to load after a little use. They are new and tend to be tight.
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeko View Post
I was a Combat Arms Maintenance and Training (CATM) in the USAF. We instructed on and repaired all USAF small arms. For what it's worth and what I have seen I feel the M9 will break long before the M&P will. The part I saw break most often on the Beretta was the locking block. I have seen several dozen break.

I have a M&P and they are a much better firearm than the Beretta.
The 1st Generation Beretta locking blocks were only lasting up to 20K+ rounds and Beretta has improved these locking blocks since to last 35K+ rounds.

I have a Beretta M9 and 92FS. I have competition shot with the 92FS without any FTF/FTE or locking block breaking. The Beretta was not as easy (mostly due to: slide safety/decocker and DA/SA) to competition shoot as the M&P9 that I now use. I like the Beretta M9/92FS and will always have one or more. The Beretta M9/92 is my favorite fullsized auto.

I used my M&P9 in 2010 competition shooting and put 2K rounds through this without issue. I did not clean this gun the whole year and shot the heck out of it without any failures.

Sounds like you made a great choice but you should always have a "want" for a Beretta M9/92 in your inventory...
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Old 06-11-2011, 09:48 PM
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The Beretta 92F and the Browning 1911 are always on my want-list. One of these days ... they will be in my inventory.
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:59 AM
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I have owned both the 92,sold it, a glock19, sold it and a bunch of others. Now I am shooting a M&P9 fs and 9c. I plan to stick withthese for quite a while. I shoot better with the for sd. I read the comment about how natural they point and shootin off the front site or up close no site and I agree. I love my 1911s but now carry a M&P. hard to beat stainless steel in a hot sweaty climate.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:08 PM
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The Barreta is a fine pistol. So is the M&P. In my experience, the Barreta is a dream to shoot. I find it to be very accurate. I have found the 92's and 96's (40 cal version) do require 1911 type mantenance.
The trigger pull on the Barreta in the single action mode is crisp. Have shot a few 96's which were DA only. These were former police guns and I understand why those dept's traded them. The pull is very, very long and probably pulled at 8-9 lbs.

I have found the M&P triggers to be on the mushy side, require less mantenance and are very reliable. The weight of the M&P is also a plus over the 92. The adjustable grips are a plus for the M&P also.

All things considered, I would probably lean toward the Smith mainly because of the grip fit. My 92 is now an occassional range gun and nothing more,but I would not trade it for anything.

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Old 06-16-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
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The Barreta is a fine pistol. So is the M&P. In my experience, the Barreta is a dream to shoot. I find it to be very accurate. I have found the 92's and 96's (40 cal version) do require 1911 type mantenance.
The trigger pull on the Barreta in the single action mode is crisp. Have shot a few 96's which were DA only. These were former police guns and I understand why those dept's traded them. The pull is very, very long and probably pulled at 8-9 lbs.

I have found the M&P triggers to be on the mushy side, require less mantenance and are very reliable. The weight of the M&P is also a plus over the 92. The adjustable grips are a plus for the M&P also.

All things considered, I would probably lean toward the Smith mainly because of the grip fit. My 92 is now an occassional range gun and nothing more,but I would not trade it for anything.
My agency uses Beretta M 92 DAO vertecs and the pulls is more in the 12-15 lbs range. You definatly have to revert tro the old revolver days of "staging" the trigger
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:51 AM
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First, I am NOT a fan of 9 mm. That said, I am a fan of the Beretta design. I own a 96, a 96 Vertec, and a 96G Vertec. I am surprised everyone that loves the Beretta has not mentioned the Vertec. It is night and day difference. I love both of mine. If you havenet handled one, I would suggest you do. The reduced grip circumference is immediately noticeable. Same magazines and same manual of arms (except for the G model as it is decock only).

That said, I make no bones about my dislike for the M&P design. I carry one daily (a full size 45) and quite frankly, I don't trust it. Im on my second one and some deputies have had their duty weapon replaced 4 and five times. Without turning this into a bash thread, let me just say I prefer the Beretta design.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
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My agency uses Beretta M 92 DAO vertecs and the pulls is more in the 12-15 lbs range. You definatly have to revert tro the old revolver days of "staging" the trigger
Thanks for the info.I knnew they were stiff. I have never been a very good revolver shooter (even though my first gun purchase was a Dan Wesson .357 back in late 70's). ALL of my pistol time had been in 1911's up until a few years ago and that is how I measure all pistols to this day.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:52 PM
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With a "D" spring and some polishing, that DA trigger will lighten up to about 8lbs and the SA to about 4 or 5. It will also smooth out nicely if you know what to polish. I have mine smooth as glass and nice lightened trigger pull, and extremely reliable. So nice in fact that since I've discovered all of these custom kydex holsters, it has become my off duty EDC.
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:34 AM
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I have both and I love both, The Beretta is Ultra reliable I have around 2000 rounds through mine NOT 1 malfunction, also super smooth action. The M&P is lighter with better sights. But I would go with the Beretta
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:50 PM
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While I will never steer anyone away from a Beretta, I will say to try them both. I've been a Beretta shooter since 1998 and I love the platform. That said, there are better and there are those that will fit you better.

On an aside, a better comparison might be the M&P 9 vs the Beretta 92A1. The 92A1 is the newest incarnation of the 90 series, it has a full Picatinny Rail, recoil buffer, and removable front and rear sights. It was a toss up between that and the M&P I ordered.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:26 PM
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Most of the Army guys that live around me don't care particularily for their issued Berettas, especially with the fixed sights. They don't think its a terrible pistol, just that there are better ones that don't cost more. Most aren't happy with 9mm either. This is a somewhat dated link, but the source is still pretty good, IMO.

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_ArmyPistol.html
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:34 AM
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Most of the Army guys that live around me don't care particularily for their issued Berettas, especially with the fixed sights. They don't think its a terrible pistol, just that there are better ones that don't cost more. Most aren't happy with 9mm either. This is a somewhat dated link, but the source is still pretty good, IMO.

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_ArmyPistol.html
The link is broken. Can you please provide a working one? Thanks!
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Old 06-19-2011, 09:47 PM
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Arthury:

Sorry about that--here it is:

www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_ArmyPistol.htm

I copied n pasted and mistakedly thought for some reason there still needed to be an 'L' on the end of it--as in HTML.

Just for your trouble, I'm going to give you another link that a few of my friends and I enjoy:

The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing

One thing it'll 'learn you' is that when you absolutely, postively have to shoot thru a one and a quarter thick piece of bullet resistant glass, forget about your 45 ACP pistol--heck forget about your AR15! But my old cheapo 12 gauge Mossberg 500, shooting a lead ball, will go through it like butter, while a 7.62X39 or even a 7.62X51 bullet won't.

That's great, because it hurts my back toting a Barrett 50 caliber M82 (don't we ALL have one?) around! Now that's a gun for when you REALLY want to "reach out and touch someone!"

From Box O' Truth's 'Orginal Chapters" (click on top at main site) here ya go--> The Box O' Truth #6 - Ballistic Resistant Glass Gets Tested - Page 1

Glad to hear back from someone on this site--even if it was to say I screwed up--where's the social banter around here?

Last edited by Rangel; 06-19-2011 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:07 PM
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You can get through ballsitic glass with a 12 Gauge slug? I would assume that's a rifled slug out of a smooth bore gun? Good to know! Got any pics of the aftermath? I'll see if I can dig up the caliber testing I did on an old ballistic vest (.9mm out of an M9, which I love btw vs. .45 ACP out of a P220). I didn't have a shotgun to test at the time, but if I can get a hold of some more old pannels, I'll give results and social banter!

P.S. - The .9mm did better than the .45 but still did not penetrate!
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:30 PM
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JarE-3,

Did you look at the Box O' Truth pictures/videos? I'd like to see what the 5.7 X 28mm round would do on that 1 & 1/4" 'bullet resistant glass'. We had a shoot out in my city recently and a couple rounds went thru TWO cars. If you haven't, have a look at the ballistics photos on that bad bear!

The 20 ounce FNH (FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28) pistol that shoots that wickedly deadly little round, (and holds 20 rounds in the smallish pistol) is quite the force to be reckoned with--it's like a friggin assault rifle, but in a plastic pistol that shoots very flat--more in terms of recoil, like a Crossman C02 pellet gun than a 40 or 45. Other than thick steel and bricks, not much else can stop it. If someone gets tagged by that little monster, even in just the hand or foot, chances are they'll bleed to death before any ambulance can even get them into the E.R.
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:25 AM
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Yeah, I like their tests. They do a lot of "practical" testing. I especially liked the videos of the old kevlar brain bucket. I was kinda surprised and relieved at the same time. I never had to use on in combat, but it makes me feel a little better about the guys and gals that do.

As far as the 5.7x28 goes, I don't know much about it, but I think you would need the AP rounds to get any kind of penetration through ballistic material. I may be wrong about that one, so I'm gonna go check after I get done here. IMHO the round is a fad for civilians. It's way too expesive around here and equally hard to find. If I venture into the land of EBRs I'd most likely go with the tried and true AK-47. Flame suit on. I had too many bad experiences with my M16 (it was the A2 version) jamming from dirt, sand, or my platoon Sgt looking at it mean.

Along those lines, I could digress for hours about why I think the .40 and .357 Sig were answers to questions that were never asked as well. That might be fodder for PM's or a new thread though.
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:07 PM
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I have heard that a 22 magnum will go through kevlar vests and a 5.7 x 28 will indeed do the same thing--the 5.7 X 28even with level 2 vests, w/o using AP ammo.

There are just some things I don't like about that gun/round, the least of which is if they started anything like another assault rifle ban, the 5.7 X 28 might be the first to go, pistol, bullpup 'rifle' and all....
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:08 PM
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Arthury:

Sorry about that--here it is:

The Army Pistol

I copied n pasted and mistakedly thought for some reason there still needed to be an 'L' on the end of it--as in HTML.
Thanks for the good links! They were good reading.

One thing, though, he recommended a Kimber at the end of the article?

Based on my understanding, Kimber has gone thru quite a lot of re-org since the 1990's and thru 2005: filing for bankruptcy, sold and re-sold, firing of founder, etc. Is this company stable enough to warrant spending close to a $1K with them?

I see Ruger releasing their 1911 of late.

Besides Kimber, who else makes a decent 1911 enhanced with current technologies?
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:54 PM
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I have heard that a 22 magnum will go through kevlar vests and a 5.7 x 28 will indeed do the same thing--the 5.7 X 28even with level 2 vests, w/o using AP ammo.

There are just some things I don't like about that gun/round, the least of which is if they started anything like another assault rifle ban, the 5.7 X 28 might be the first to go, pistol, bullpup 'rifle' and all....
I couldn't agree more with that last paragraph. As to 22 mag and vests, I don't know that one either. They're just too damn expensive to buy and shoot. I may have another oldie laying around, but I gotta dig.

Arthury,

Take a look at the Springfield 1911's. I passed on an Operator Champion for a good price (as in free as a gift) about 7 months ago and I'm still kicking myself for it.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:18 AM
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I wasn't aware of the corporate ups and downs at Kimber, but I have heard and read that the quality of their pistols can vary greatly.

I think machining improvements in tightening tolerances in building 1911's which usually makes them more accurate, has been an improvement, but it's one that requires you to keep them cleaner to avoid jams and malfunctions, more the case than with older models.

Case in point, I was going to have a guy named Krebs do custom work on an AK 47 or AK74 for me. Well, the AK's are like Mossberg 500s---drop em in the mud, never maintain them and they'll still shoot---no, not as accurately as an AR or S&W15 assault rifle or Saiga shotgun, but you have plenty of cheap ammo to spread around and get the job done. It's a crudely built gun with sloppy tolerances and 'so so' accuracy, but is utterly relaible and is the weapon of choice in 3rd world hell holes all over the world. BUT when you tighten up the tolerances on an AK to the level of an AR or M&P 15, you get the same finicky performance, as it's suddenly more prone to sand and dirt causing malfunctions, etc. If you buy an AK,might as well leave it 'as is' I figure and/or buy an AR or M&P 15 that you can shoot grapes off the vine with.

A lot of people look at Para Ordnance bring a double stack magazine design to the 1911, effectively doubling capacity, as being a major improvement. Only having seven round capacity in a gun that can weigh over 40 ounces was seen by some as too big a sacrifice. Of course with a gun that heavy, if you ran out of bullets, throwing it at someone's head would probably kill them just as well!

Springfield and probably some other companies as well, have adopted double stack magazines. I never thought I'd be sort of recommending a Taurus, as my first gun was one and should've been called a 'stove pipe special' but they have improved the quality of some of their guns quite a bit. Some people more knowledgable than me, say their 1911 is pretty good and a bargain at that. Their stainless model looks pretty cool. The new Ruger 1911 looks great on paper and price, but I have seen too many new Ruger models come out and within a year, require factory modifications in their construction.

With this being the 100th anniversary of the 1911, a lot of companies are producing a lot of cheap as well as a lot of very fancy and expensive 1911s--from the Philippine made Rock Island for about $360, to ones costing 5 or 6 thousand bucks and at that, will probably never be shot, but kept in their presentation boxes.

Yea, I like to get a hot new pistol and I wanted a Kel-Tec PMR-30--that pistol was fairly small, light and held 30 rounds of the blazing fast 22 magnum, only to be cancelled due to problems they were having. All too often, buying a hot new model of a gun, makes you their 'beta tester' and within a year or two, they improve it, but won't do the same to your early production model under warranty.

Last edited by Rangel; 06-22-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:51 PM
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With this being the 100th anniversary of the 1911, a lot of companies are producing a lot of cheap as well as a lot of very fancy and expensive 1911s--from the Philippine made Rock Island for about $360, to ones costing 5 or 6 thousand bucks and at that, will probably never be shot, but kept in their presentation boxes.
This is a great point. Usually recommending a Philippine 1911 will get you flamed, but since YOU did it...The RIA Tactical that I had (and foolishly sold) was THE gun that got me into tinkering. It was cheap when I bought it so I figured why not. Well let me tell you, that sucker was accurate as they came and ate WHATEVER I fed it. Some other companie to look ingto for that are Citadel (also an Armscor, but higher end than the RIA), and Metro Arms.
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