While shooting my S&W M&P 40 caliber I experienced what is known as a "dead trigger." The pistol did not cock but could be cocked manually by pulling back the slide. I sent the pistol back to Smith and received it back but have not shot it yet.
I also noticed that an individual, whom I believe to be a LEO, posting on the Glock forum, experienced the same problem. He switched back to Glocks for obvious reasons.
My 9mm M&P's have digested a lot of rounds without this problem.
If Smith and Wesson expects to garner some of the law enforcement market, they need to correct this problem fast.
Has anyone else experienced this problem?
Does anyone know if this problem has been corrected and what causes it?

A search about Apex Tactical and sears will most likely get all of your questions answered. What's happening is the oem sear and plunger are too small so the sear flutters from recoil causing the "dead trigger"
A lot of us have had Apex Tactical drill our sear housing and replace the spring and plunger which fixed the problem. Word has it that S&W has acknowledged the problem and is already putting the bigger parts in new deliveries but some of the old might still be out there.

Thanks for the info and heads up. I hope Smith fixed the problem. I want to see a US firm compete head on with Glock with a product just as good!

The "dead trigger" issue also exists with Glock. There are numerous posts, articles, etc related to glock problems. ANY manufacturer can get a bad unit out the door.

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Gerry

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

Yes, this bothers me as well. I had a similar problem with my Night Guard revolver where I had to replace the stock firing pin with an Apex Tactical to get reliable ignition. S&W tried to claim it was bad ammo causing the problem, but once I replaced the F/P I never seemed to get any more "bad ammo". In the other thread I started a few guys said the trigger would get better after I shot the M&P some more. I hope so. It's not unusable now, but it's not near as good as a Glock or XDm right out of the box.

I agree, S&W should know from all the complaints about their M&P triggers and fix the problems.

On the other hand, would you not want the Apex options?

i am surprized to here that. my local dealer sell lots of them and has never had a complaint on any m&p. i have 3 m&p 40c one with a ten pd trigger two with 6.5 pound trigger, one which has over 5000 rd thru it and they always work great

S&W quite probably knows all about the trigger problems in general, as well as dead triggers....

Why they don't use the improved sear and drop safety plunger that Apex is selling (along with some other springs), I don't know.... Unless there are patent issues.

They will fix your sear block if you have the older version, and are having problems. I don't think a "I'd like to fix this, just in case" would fly. Apex is charging under $50 for customers.

You really shouldn't have to put $100-$150 into a new gun to get a good trigger out of it, but my guess is that S&W is building these for a price point, and doesn't want to take that final step.

The triggers on an unmodified M&P will smooth out, but the DCAEK kit just fixes that immediately, and it's DIY if you don't mind tackling it. (Or about a half-hour for a smith.)

Unfortunately, adding the DCAEK kit could also turn on the dead trigger effect. The good news is that you'll notice it real fast....

I don't know if Brownells or Midway is shipping the newer sear blocks or not.... There's no way to tell which one you've got without removing the sear, which may go flying across the room (or at least the spring and plunger might).... (I don't know if Brownells' or Midway's CS people would know, either.)

Allegedly, S&W started slipstreaming these updated sear blocks in about last October, but it's still a long pipeline, and anybody's guess what you've got, or what you'll get from an aftermarket supplier.

(BTW, my understanding is that the un-modified M&P still might give you a dead trigger with the older sear setup, eventually. Dirt, apparently. I also heard about a guy with a brand new one that more or less came with a dead trigger. No idea which sear block he's got, though. My guess there is tramp metal or leftover manufacturing crud.)

Regards,

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Stu.

I've got just over 4K rounds thru a 45 full size and as of yet, no trigger problems. Glock trigger return springs will occasionally break causing the trigger not to return to the ready position. If a shooter is properly reseting the trigger after each shot, it might take a little while to notice the condition. Having not experienced the issue with an M&P, I don't know if proper trigger reset will also mask the problem.

"good, reliable trigger pull. " ---Please define this.
"scheme" ? --- do you own any 1911's , Glock, Ruger 10/22, or maybe Harley Davidson's products,

What you and I may consider a "good trigger", the newcomer may find it too light ; too short , and would injure himself or others. Then blame the weapon for his AD. Of course this could happen with any factory weapon,,,, I think you can see where this is going. (attorneys) . So Manufacturers make the weapons as safe as possible yet still be acceptable to the masses.

I would guess that S&W has to stay away from the "gray line" as one approaches a "good/great trigger" (CYA).

Every pistol has after market parts to "improve" , function/reliability/trigger/grip/ejection/feed/ etc. etc. If any weapon can be modified in some way, or customized, There will be a business to fill this market. (AR15)
I put the Apex FSS in my pro. Why?, Because it more closely emulates my 1911 in trigger performance.
Was it necessary? no. Wanted? Yes.
Why didn't S&W do this type of trigger? I don't know, Legal council maybe? who knows. I'm sure all the manufacturers can put outstanding triggers in their weapons, but the risk of litigation outweighs the profit.
It seems that in today's society, a business owner/ entrepreneur, has to constantly be looking over his shoulder for liability exposure.
No one is responsible for their failures anymore.
It's always the fault of others.

No disrespect intended, I just wasn't sure if you "saw" the Big Picture.

Sorry, didn't intend to ramble on in tangents,
My .02

I have several Glocks and never had a problem with any of them. I did have a problem with an XD trigger; but that was after I had the factory customized it with a trigger job. I sent it back and they fixed it.
I regularly watch the Glock forum and have read innumerable articles and books available on the Glock and have not seen anything about " dead triggers."
There is a lot of griping about the Gen 4 Glocks. Seems to me Glock was trying to fix something not broken.
Seems as if the M&P had a trigger problem and fixed it. The two most popular pistols on the IPSC and IDPA circuit seem to be S&W and Glock. Those shooters shoot a whole lot. I know I shot IPSC for twelve years back in the day that the 1911 ruled. A Pistol with a problem and unable to take a lot of rounds did not last long with those shooters. Usage is the best test. I am hoping Smith gets a lot of the police market back from Glock with the M&P.

While I agree with you - take a look at the aftermarket for both 1911's and Glocks and the industry they have spawned. There will always be aftermarket items available for popular pistols.

walkin' trails:

Apex sells a "RAM" ("Reset Assist Mechanism") for all the M&P's except those with a thumb safety that can help the trigger reset. It seems to be able to get the trigger to reset with a broken spring, and makes an audible "click" in some guns (YMMV due to manufacturing tolerances) when reset occurs. Probably not the worst idea in the world....

(You also have to remove the Hilary Lock, if present, to install the RAM, but I get the feeling that nobody'd mind too much.)

I really think that S&W dropped the ball on the trigger, looking at the Apex parts almost trivial differences from stock. The drop safety plunger is probably the worst offender - the loop in the trigger bar has to cross the top of the plunger (to move it out of the way so the striker can hit the primer), and the geometry is just wrong. Whether this is intended to keep the trigger stiffer as a CYA or just ended up that way, I don't know.... The sear shape is also a little wrong (per Apex and Dan Burwell), but we probably could live with that. I just can't see CYA as a defense in the case of the drop safety plunger. it does reduce trigger pull a bit, but mostly, it's just considerably smoother, and doesn't (IMHO) seem to change much else.

The dead trigger thing seems to have just cropped up - older guns without the Apex mods, and new ones with them.... They've been shipping a Massachusetts-compliant sear block for some time (with a rather heavy trigger pull), and it turns out that's the fix, but for those of us who don't live in MA, cutting the trigger back to four or five pounds (still, IMHO, heavy enough to protect the new shooter) isn't all that hard. The older sear block gives you more than that - I forget the numbers, but still under the MA requirement.

In process, though, the older non-MA sear block uses a microscopic spring and plunger to reset the sear, and that seems to be the failure point - just not enough spring there to keep the sear up to grab the striker during recoil. I'm not sure if that was an attempt to keep the trigger pull low, or just "let's just use what fits". FWIW, updating the older sear block requires that the hole in the sear block be enlarged to take the new spring, and this appears to require some metal to be removed beside the hole. Tough on the cutters, and probably why DIY needs a really good mill and some machining skill. (The hole is slightly off-center in the sear's slot in the block.

Those things should come out the door at four or five pounds. If I wanted a Sigma, I would have bought one....

Regards,

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Stu.

Yes, I do see the "big picture", and the big picture is that M&Ps are severely lacking in the trigger department compared to other offerings. Not just poor trigger pull out of the box, but also prone to breaking with this "dead trigger" malfunction.

Let's say I buy a new Glock and I don't like the trigger. It will cost me $12.98 in parts and half an hour to clean it up, lighten it, make it heavier with the NY trigger, whatever I want to do. The only tool required is one punch. If I leave the trigger stock, it may be heavy and gritty but it's still reliable.

If an M&P trigger isn't satisfactory to me, I'm looking at $113 in parts to make it better. That's quite a significant difference. Additionally, if I don't do anything with my M&P trigger, the stock parts may give me a "dead trigger" at some point.

Aftermarket parts should be available for any gun, but with the M&P, the aftermarket triggers are too expensive and too necessary IMO.

Trigger Spring Broke? Keep Shooting! - Glock Talk

Actually the Pro series have pretty good triggers. Try them.

Once again, spending more money to get the trigger that should have been on the gun in the first place.

I started with the DCAEK kit for the my Pro. I really couldn't tell much difference over the stock set up.
I took my wife's M&P 9, And basically went through the trigger components, polishing everything. Cost- nothing. Time spent- about one hour. End result, a much smoother pull. If she wants lighter, change out the trigger return spring. I actually think it turned out better than the OEM Pro trigger or the DCAEK kit.
Any poor trigger performance can be made better by the end user, on most production guns, with a little knowledge and some light polishing of the internals.
As for Dead trigger, my wife had the smaller sear spring and never experienced a dead trigger. Many rnds down range.
S&W has resolved the "Possible" issue with the newer block and larger spring. I resolved the "Possibility" of this issue by drilling out the block and putting in the larger components. (ounce of prevention)
You continue to refer to Glock as the ultimate of reliability. I'm sure your not referring to the Gen 4. A lot of reported problems with the Gen4.
And 12.95 for a new part, you can achieve the same result in the M&P by just polishing the trans bar and striker block. (free).
I own both the G19 and the G17 (gen 3's). The M&P Pro9 and the M&P 9 FS. All shoot well, All are reliable. Pro has Apex FSS, other 3 have polished up internals. I have zero complaints with any of them.
If you demand great triggers out-of-the-box, You will have to step up your price point. My son has discovered the hard way, You get what you pay for. After purchase of a DE 1911G. He fired my Wilson, then his DE. I won't repeat his wording for the trigger comparison.
YMMV

On mine, I spent $80 more than the regular M&P. Its like paying for the night sights (which I wanted anyway) and getting the great trigger as a bonus.

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

"You will have to step up your price point."

Really? To what? A quick check on Gunbroker show these M&P's averaging around $500+. Overpriced, overhyped polymer gun with a lousy trigger, IMO of course.

Why would I pay that for an M&P when I can get a Walther PPQ for about the same money AND the PPQ has an EXCELLENT trigger right out of the box? Sounds nonsensical, to me.

Which did S&W forget how to do first - make a decent trigger, or a good looking handgun? Regards 18DAI

Good point but why can't S&W make all of their triggers the same rather than making some feel better than others? I think what pisses people off is this inconsistency. I personally got lucky with a smooth trigger but why can't every M&P come standard with this type of trigger?

Yes, this is purely your opinion. My trigger is stock and it's completely fine.

Just IMHO, but the M&P guns (maybe not the Pro series) are stamped out for Police service & such. Particularly the Full Size models.

Probably most of these guns are going to people who would be satisfied with a zip gun trigger system - as long as the thing goes bang....

The rest are either going to do some work on the guns themselves, or are lucky enough to have a smith or armorer who'll do it for them.

This is pretty much the way the old Model 10 revolvers came off the line 40 years ago. (I've got an M10HB.)

If you luck out, you get a really good one. Otherwise, it's acceptable if you're one of those "don't care" folks, and the latter will shoot in a bit if you spend some time dry firing (or shooting) them.

Admittedly, the M10HB I bought in 1968 may have had the finest out-of-the box SA trigger anybody ever made, but those were different times....

So, what we end up with is at worst, acceptable.... Those who would improve them can, but it's really not necessary.

The dead trigger thing is something entirely different.

From what I can get (from the web, and we all know how good that is), the dead trigger problem seems to be somewhat random, and only after quite a few rounds, in most cases. It appears to be the result of mixed tolerances and dirt or other crud around (under?) the sear. The design seems to make keeping this area clean a problem. Kicking this around elsewhere in the last couple days, it also occurs to me that the sear pin also needs to be adequately lubricated.

The sear rides on a pin that runs all the way through the sear and the sear block. If it runs dry inside the sear, and seizes up, the combination should still turn on the two holes in the block. If one of those seizes up, it's not going to work. (So, it could seize on either side of the block, or inside the sear itself, and still work, but not both one side or the other of the sear block AND inside the sear, too.)

Apparently the MA-compliant sear block (larger spring and plunger) won't do that, and S&W has recognized the issue and gone (slowly) to just shipping that block.

However, they feel that age and dirt are the source of the problem.

Adding the DCAEK kit to the older sear block seems to speed the problem up considerably. I'm not sure why, but my bet is on some bits not being quite where they're supposed to be. Installing the updated spring and plunger seems to fix it just fine, and newer guns may not have the problem at all. AND we get a trigger that's quite close to the SA trigger on my ancient M10HB, too.

But you don't have to.... Don't update the trigger, and DO see what you can do to get that updated sear block into the gun (or find out if you have one), and you shouldn't have problems long enough to get around to the update.

Dan Burwell did a superb DIY article for what amounts to the Apex updates, btw. If you ignore the sear updates he suggests, he also suggests a fix for the drop safety plunger that about anybody can do, but as importantly, it explains the Apex mods, too.

Short answer is to not panic. The un-Apex'd gun should be fine long enough to get around to updating the sear block. Shooting or dry firing the gun will smooth out the trigger, too, without messing up anything. Adding the drop safety plunger update will help further without changing the sear (and causing sear-related problems).

Just IMHO, of course....

Regards,

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Stu.

Here are four links I found in less than 10 min of looking.

As I said before; ALL manufacturers have had problems at various times.
Not trying to start another “my brand is better than yours” issue, just making a point.

To me, the issue with M&P triggers is one of expectation. I did not expect it to have a target quality trigger, I expected it to fire when I pulled it. I purchased the DCAEK kit because I decided to Modify trigger pull to more closely align with a target gun, without sacrificing safety, NOT because there was anything wrong with the factory trigger.


Glock trigger return spring - Public Service Announcement

Glock 21, failure to fire, bad trigger bars - TheFiringLine Forums

The Gun Zone -- More Glock Problems

LAPD BANS GLOCK 21 MECHANICAL FLAW - AY DETAILS ANYONE? - THR

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Gerry

As far as "service" pistols go, the .40 S&W has got to have the sharpest recoil of the 3 typical calibers in those kinds of guns, and when you consider the number of rounds through them, it tells me that the various companys have underestimated the collective effect of the .40 on their hardware. Of course, it hasn't been in widespread use anywhere near as long as the other two, but I would guestamate that the failure in ALL brands of pistols in this caliber is much higher in proportion to the others. Just a thought and observation from my own experience with the .40. It's great in my 610! You know, I don't think it is realistic to expect a gun that weighs so much less, that's made out of plastic, to hold up like one made out of steel, especially in a caliber with traits like the .40 S&W.Flapjack.

I think that despite as much as we read on the internet about their triggers and the infamous lack of trigger reset, the majority of buyers seem happy with the stock trigger.

I have noticed that do seem to be improving the triggers though. Actually, I can say the same thing about Gen3 GLOCKs too--improved triggers over the years. Ironically, the Gen4 22 I played with seemed to have a worse trigger out of the box, but I digress.

A dead trigger? Well, that is a completely different story.

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NRA Certified Instructor

I agree. For some reason, we tolerate this on firearms when we wouldn't on anything else. Imagine buying a car and then having to get a transmission upgrade to insure reliable shifting into drive, or buying a brand new computer but having to upgrade your operating system before you could surf the web. The gun should be coming from the factory in perfect operating condition. Like kahr telling you to shoot 250 rounds as a "break in" before the gun should be reliable. The gun should be reliable from the box. How come other companies don't expect the buyer to break in the gun before reliability can be expected?

The M&P has a great trigger and my Wife just loves Her M&P40C.
This is a new Gun and will have its problems like any other pistol with a new design. All have issues and the longer they are sold the better they are built.
Glock had their problems, (yes they did) when they first came on the market and that is why I have never owned one. I would own one now because it is a dependable gun.
I waited for the M&P to be on the market for a while before I would okay my wives choice of Her 40C.
And I still had to send it back to solve a minor problem but that is what CS is about.
As for Me I like the trigger just the way it is and do not see the advantage of changing it with a 3rd party trigger Why?
Be safe

kbm6893:

A good part of the issue is that these guns are made for a price, and the ones that go into LE service should have an associated armorer to handle minor break-in issues. For the rest of us, just shoot the heck out of it, and all the problems will either jump out at you (and S&W's CS folks will help out), or you'll burn 'em off (stock triggers will improve with use).

The dead trigger problem seems to be a long-term potential, rather than something to absolutely expect, unless you do the DCAEK (or, I would expect, any of the Apex sear mods). You don't need any of these for a Service gun, or SD work - it's just better with them, but the dead trigger is a caveat unless you have the newer sear block, in which case, you shouldn't have the problem.

I remember buying new cars, and then taking the car back a week or two later with a long list of things to fix. We accepted that with cars that cost a lot more than an M&P. I would still expect some of that, although the last new car (in 1989) went through the warranty period with only one problem, and that turned up quite late - one of the little bitty bypass hoses around the heater valves grew a hole. Made it back to the dealer without a tow....

I don't think the manufacturers can test these guns to the point of "perfect" and still sell them for anything we'd likely pay for a Tuppergun.... They also have to design something they can crank out without going crazy of the cost of tooling - cutters and molds wear. Kinda "do the best you can", which seems to be pretty good.

Just IMHO, of course.... During WWI and WWII, a fresh out of the box Colt GM would likely survive about anything we could throw at it. But when people start mucking with it for accuracy, better triggers, etc., some of that "drive a jeep over it" went away....

(No, I'm not that old. But close ....)

In short, if you don't upgrade the sear, odds are that the gun will work reliably. If the tolerances were a little wrong, or some crud gets into the sear block, who knows, eventually. But S&W has changed that, and you can get that upgrade, should you feel you need it, easily. If you wait about another year, Brownells and Midway should have the new blocks (about $30) and you can swap it yourself. (Anybody's guess what you'd get from them now.) It's the guys who've done the Apex upgrade (for whatever reason) that should run to the mailbox and get the sear block upgrade now....

Regards,

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Stu.

Sooner or later, some of you folks will learn the differance between WANT and NEED.

There is nothing wrong with the standard M&P trigger, it can be IMPROVED with the kit.

I'm sure none of you EVER put additional money into a gun. Why would you do that if it was so great from the factory?
For you Kimber, etc users; surely you dont think they are stock.

I am so happy to see this stuff on the Ford vs. Chevy forum!

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Gerry

I don't see what this problem is all about. I have a M&P 40FS, manufactured and test fired 2-9-11. When I got the gun the trigger was a little stiff and gritty. I purchased it on 5-4-11. As of today's date, I have shot 542 rounds through it, I keep count. The trigger is smooth and no more gritty feel. Around 9.5-10# trigger. Since this gun has no safety, I do not want less for CCW. My friend that shoots with me has a Sig P226 Elite in .40. My trigger now is just as good as his. I know because I have shot it.

What occurred is my gun broke in. All the parts had to marry and rub off the newness. I have a S&W BG 380, same thing, my Bersa Thunder 380 DLX, same thing. All were stiff because they were NEW!

If most folks would just shoot what they have and not worry about problems that may or may not ever occur, or do I need this or that, or I read this article and now my gun is not right, they would be much better off.(It's on the Internet so it's true) And most likely have a little more of their money still in the bank.

When a problem occurs, if you purchased it new, use your warranty. That's what it's there for and if S&W has it in for service, if it needs upgrading, they will perform it. 9 out of 10 times, free of charge, unless you have been tinkering with it, because they know your gun better than you do. They made it so they know what it needs and don't need. The M&P is just a good mid range price gun that most folks can afford to own. Just load em up and shoot them. If if breaks then get it fixed and keep on shooting.

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Excuse me!