Hi guys
I'm a new member but have been a gun owner for 30+ years. My latest toy is an M&P 9c . The gun feels, shoots and looks great but even though it was manufactured in June 2011, the trigger fails to reset about 2% of the time. I will send it back and hopefully S&W will change the sear, sear spring,etc. I'm not ready to go the Apex Kit route as I think they should fix it. My question is will S&W fix it or just look at it and tell me it is Ok? What has been your experience with having S&W fix this issue? Thanks

Rebiker1:

If you're courageous enough to pop out the sear (use a plastic bag - the newer plunger & spring will go flying), and clean everything, you might be OK.... Dirt/crud in there may be the problem. The trigger bar may also be bent (something you may not want to play with). The trigger spring might be an issue, too, as well as any binding in the trigger and trigger bar.

S&W should help you out on this - call tag, etc. I've never had to call them - the one dead trigger I had was due to a DCAEK kit on a 40C, and Randy fixed it for me for a couple bucks. (Since the Apex kit was "helping" cause the problem, sending it to S&W would have been a waste of time.)

While you've got it apart, it's a good time to install the DCAEK kit, too ....

Finally, "fails to reset" - you really do have to let the trigger come forward quite a ways. My apologies if you know all of this, but the Para LDA folks occasionally run into this one, and since it's a 1911, new shooters presume about a bazillionth of an inch is sufficient. It's not.... If you have to cycle the slide (around a half-inch), that's not it....

You also may have the older sear block, with smaller spring and plunger. That seems to be an issue in the 40's, and in older guns once they get dirty and wear a bit from use. You shouldn't see that with a new one. S&W started using the larger plunger & spring around last October, but it's anybody's guess what you got. Might be nice to ask S&W to check/fix that, too. AFAIK, they won't do that if you just ask, but since you've go a problem, they might just do it for you as long as the gun is there.

Regards,

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Stu.

Thanks for the info. Nope, I'm not brave enough to take the sear assembly appart. With my luck, I'll lose a part or end up w/ "spare" parts :-). At first I thought this was caused by user error so I made a concious effort to release the trigger all the way back and after about 50 shots, it happenned again.

I'm not sure what the DCAEK kit is. Apex seems to have a number of kits for different applications or needs. Can you elaborate on this? Thanks.

yours being made in 2011 should already have the larger plunger. I would actually put a few drops of a good oil on the sear and let it soak underneath to lube it. Then shoot it again an see if it happens again.

Rebiker1:

WashMP9's advice is good....

The DCAEK kit is one of Apex's prime products. It includes a replacement sear, a sear spring (actually, two - one for the older sear block & plunger, and one for the new one), a trigger spring, and a replacement drop safety plunger. The idea is that you can install the whole kit, or just the parts you feel necessary, and it really cleans up the trigger feel in an M&P. S&W's drop safety plunger setup - the trigger bar pushes up a plunger that, when "up", lets the striker move towards the cartridge - is really most of the "grit" when talking about M&P triggers. The modified version allows the trigger bar to slide more gently across the plunger. The upgraded sear changes some of the geometry, and can reduce trigger pull weights.

The only downside, other than flying sear parts, is that it seems to help the dreaded Dead Trigger appear in guns that otherwise might go quite a while without it. The fix is the upgraded sear plunger and spring. Your M&P should already have that, though, which means that lubrication or cleaning issues are much more likely. Adding the DCAEK kit is just icing on the cake, once the problem is dealt with.

('Course, pulling the sear out ought to fix that, too , but there are still other issues.)

I think the lubrication idea might be a good one. Then, if that doesn't work, a call to S&W.... Just dropping in the DCAEK kit might fix it, but it's an expensive fix if you can live with the stock trigger.

You should have the upgraded sear block, plunger, and spring, but it's a "who knows" without taking the thing apart.

Regards,

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Stu.

Thanks to you both for the tips. The gun was really clean and lubricated before the observed malfunctions. I had already decided to send it back before I posted the original note and in fact just shipped it early this morning. I am just hoping S&W fixes the issue and was wondering if any of you had had a positive response from S&W on this exact issue. By the way my complaint is not related to trigger feel. I think the trigger is smooth enough and light enough for SD. The Apex kits you all talk about sound interesting . I'm not
against improving a trigger but as I said I think the Manufacturer should fix it. I have owned and currently own a number of S&W handguns and never before ran into a problem like this. I have also owned both Flocks and Springfield XD pistols with no issues.

I will let you know if the repairs prove to be succsesful. Hopefully it won't take too long.

Thanks

Smith and Wesson will fix it if you decide the send it back. I had the same problem with a 40 cal not too long ago and sent it back. Their turn around time was very fast.

Great. That is good to hear. Thanks

S&W customer service is great. I had a dead trigger problem with an M&P9 Pro and called them up. They sent the shipping label and I sent it off. It came back like in a week problem fixed with a free magazine for my trouble. They even included a note with what the fix was. I love Smith & Wesson. So much better than so many others.

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Jhawk412
Tulsa, Ok.

Great. I'll take a free mag . What did they repair in your case?

I am curious as to what their solution/fix was as well. I am wondering if your newer model didn't initially make it out of S&W with an older sear block. TXPO

I'll let you know what was wrong when I get the gun back provided S&W tells me what they did to correct this.

TXPO:

From what I've seen since my 40C grew a dead trigger some time back, a new gun should NOT do this unless a DCAEK (or at least the sear & spring modification) was installed. My bet is still dirt/crud around the sear, or spring/trigger bar issues.

It also appears that S&W is "slipstreaming" the upgrade where you're not automatically getting the MA-compliant sear block. Which means that a new gun could still get the older block.

(The MA-compliant - Massachusetts-compliant - sear block uses a larger sear spring and sear return plunger. With a slightly lighter spring, the "feel" is just a bit heavier than the basic design. Everybody else was getting the basic version - the one with the microscopic spring and plunger. Somewhere along the line - perhaps when these problems started cropping up - S&W apparently decided to use up the older sear blocks and start shipping only the MA-compliant version eventually. The only difference being a MA-compliant spring for MA....)

At this point, the aftermarket suppliers (Brownells and Midway, AFAIK) seem to have the older blocks, but who knows. I don't think they know.... (And it's impossible to tell without taking the sear out of the block....)

It's said that S&W won't upgrade a block unless you have a problem - and, I suppose, they can detect it.... Apex will upgrade a block and provide the new plunger and spring for their customers for something under $50 (you can ship your old block any old way - it's not a "firearm" - but something traceable may be a better idea). Non-customers are expected to pay a bit more, but it's "no questions asked"....

Hopefully S&W will fix things, and upgrade the sear block, too ....

BTW, Apex's DCAEK kit now includes a replacement sear spring for both blocks - saves paperwork and hassle.

You CAN upgrade your own sear block, but nobody seems to have plungers. I think Apex is making their own. Requires a good mill and a cutter that can handle the relatively hard block material. Apex told me that they're burning up cutters pretty quickly. The "odd" part of the job is that the side of the cutter has to take a divot out of the side of the "slot" in the block where the plunger & spring live. Otherwise any old drill press....

Can't wait to hear!

Regards,

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Stu.

I read something wrong, I thought Re had it return already. I was wondering if S&W was doing that with the upgraded sear blocks. Most all of the new M&P I have seen recent production guns have had the new sear block with larger plunger and spring. My new M&P9 had the larger plunger and spring as well. I was wondering if some guns were still shipping out with the older sear blocks. If in fact Re's compact had the new sear block, that would mean the dead trigger is still out there. I had in my 2009 production 40. I have the APEX DCAEK and ram in my M&P9 and this thing has eaten everything with no trigger issues. When I first got it I put in an older pro sear and it went 800 plus rouds without issue. I simply wanted a heavier take up and used the DCAEK kit's springs at first. Still no issues and so I figured I would go ahead and install everything. It is absolutely amazing what this kits does. The trigger feels exactly like my Glocks tirggers now. So much so, my G19 duty weapon is spending a lot of time in the safe. I am carrying my M&P 9 in my holster as I write this. TXPO.

TXPO:

No idea.... S&W "officially" started using the new blocks for non-MA sales last October, if you can believe what you see on the Web. However, it appears that they also just used what was handy, so what you got was a toss-up. The pipeline may also be long enough that some of the older blocks are still around in new guns. Allegedly, they're selling as fast as S&W can make 'em, but....

IMHO, if the OP has the new sear block, there's something else entirely involved, or the gun's got some crud or other problems in the sear assembly that's retarding the sear from grabbing the striker.

A broken or improperly installed trigger spring, or a bad trigger bar, can also muck up the reset. One reason for the RAM kit is the extra help the thing gives the far end of the bar. Essentially, it grabs the end of the bar and pulls it where it's supposed to be. The gun design shouldn't require this, and if the spring is right, it shouldn't be necessary, but it's a help.

Regards,

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Stu.

I got my gun back exactly one week after I shipped it. Thus, the gun was at the S&W shop for less than 2 days. According to the doc I received, it was repaired by "REPL SEAR HOUSING BLK ASY". I guess that means that all the parts associated w/ the sear were replaced but I'm really not sure if that is what was done. I haven't shot it yet... maybe tomorrow and I'll let you know if the reported problem is now a thing of the past. Oh.... they sent me a free magazine w/ the pinkie extension. I must say I am pleased thus far with the quick turn around and their sending me a free mag for my 'trouble".

rebiker:

Looks like they did replace the sear block....

What we don't know is whether you got the newer style (large plunger & spring) or not....

You'll find out when we badger you into buying a DCAEK kit ....

If I were them, I would have put the new block in - regardless of what bit you originally, it's not likely to find that failure mode again with the new block.

Hope it works out well! I missed my usual Wednesday night range session, and probably won't make it next week, either, but my 40C is happily on my belt.

Traveling last week, Anniversary this coming Wednesday. Seems like only yesterday, but yesterday was a bad day, too .... (36 years!)

Regards,

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Stu.

I would bet S&W installed a new sear block. The two that I recently picked up were the new ones with the larger spring and plunger. I wonder if Re had and old style or new style sear block. We will never know. I have no doubt that the new one corrected the problem and doubtfull will show up again. I nearing 1500 in my M&P9 and not a single issue. So far so good. I have comeplet confidence in it now, and I find myself taking it with me more than my 19 now. TXPO

As you guys said, there is no way to know as to exactly what was used to repair my gun. My guess is that the entire assembly was replaced (housing, sear, springs, etc). Looks like the range will need to wait until Sunday... I can't wait to confirm that the issue was fixed though I would think it probably was.

I think the gun was fixed. Just shot about 130 PMC 115g bullets with no trigger issues.

There were no feeding or any failure to extract either but I did have about 3 misfired which I attribute to the cheap ammo I was using. The primer showed a good dent but it took a 2nd hit to ignite the powder. Am I right in blaming the ammo? I will try a different brand next time but I.hate to blow lots of mula for range practice.

BRILLIANT

sorry, couldn't resist

I'm surprised to hear you had misfires with PMC ammo

Rebiker1:

Sounds great!

BUT, as long as you have some time, yank the striker assembly and clean EVERYTHING.... Sounds a little like something is retarding the thing. This should be unrelated to the sear, and could still be the ammunition, but who knows? Check the drop safety plunger, too, and make sure it moves freely with finger pressure. If it's not working properly (the trigger bar's "loop" moves it), the striker won't move. Since you're getting some impression on the primer, my vote is dirt someplace....

I had the dubious distinction of working on a Llama .40 a while back. It wouldn't fire anything but a club member's handloads. Turned out that he was using very soft primers.... Pulled the slide apart for cleaning (1911 copy, but not a clone) and found nothing, BUT, the Swartz safety bar apparently was "out of time", and had been beaten up by the firing pin, to the point that a large burr on the safety bar was retarding the firing pin, even if everything else worked.

The Swartz drop safety uses a pin from the grip safety to move an "L"-shaped bar that blocks the firing pin. If it's not raised up out of the way, the firing pin has a ring that can hit it. You have to remove the rear sight to get to it. It's clear that Llama expected something, because the rear sight has a witness mark on it!

Regards,

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Stu.

I removed the striker and cleaned it. It was pretty clean though there was some oil in the "channel". Now it is totally clean and "dry". I'll have to test it to see.

Oh.. the drop safety plunger appears to be OK.

Thanks

Actually, as far as I can tell, the RAM is more likely to cause the dead trigger problem rather than help it. The RAM pulls the trigger bar toward the sear which likely is causing drag against the sear during the cycle preventing the sear from popping back up. The stiffer sear spring will no doubt help but I don't believe this is the basic problem. My 9Pro had 2 dead triggers last Sunday for the first time after I installed the RAM on Friday. I am now RAMless..

Willie:

I hope Scott or Randy will chime in, because I can't quite get my head around it right now.

(Can't recall whether my 40C developed a dead trigger before or after installing the RAM - I did that later, after the DCAEK went in. Swapping the plunger & spring - Randy did it - fixed it.)

Unfortunately, Lisa didn't forget to bill me .... (In fairness to the gang at Apex, tossing a few bucks at them was a given. When they threatened to hold my daughter hostage, I thanked them....)

Regards,

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Stu.

I have nothing but great things to say about Apex. They have great products and the RAM is no exception. Many people feel their shooting has improved with the RAM. I do however believe that the RAM contributes to the dead trigger problem if you have the smaller sear spring. Probably the best combination is the RAM with the larger sear spring.

One question for everyone; Has anyone with a large sear spring had a problem with dead trigger?

I also believe the shape of the trigger bar is a factor. Mine fully engages the sear but I have seen several trigger bars that only partially engage the sear. This latter arrangement provides greater clearance between the sear and trigger bar during the rechargre cycle and I feel sure reduces the chance of a dead trigger.

Randy, if your listening, what do you think about all of this?
I just purchased a completion spring set for my pro9. Would the small sear spring included be stronger than the factory spring? If so, I will probably install it and put back the RAM and see what happens.

Hey guys, please help a relative newbie understand what a "dead trigger" is. Thanks!

It's when the pistol cycles normally but the striker does not reset. So you have a fresh round in the chamber but the pistol is not cocked.

Willie:

Shh.... Be nice to these guys and they'll keep coming back .

(But +1!)

Nobody seems to know why, but it appears that the popularity of the DCAEK kit and the concurrent appearances of dead triggers with and without the kits, seem to have resulted in S&W starting to slipstream the newer sear block, plunger, and spring into production. I know I'm not the first to ask Randy about it, but I was one of the first....

The larger sear spring does seem to help - the idea is to shove that sear up and keep it there so it's in place to grab the striker. If it's fluttering around, it won't.

Haven't heard about it, but if you look at the design, particularly with dirty ammunition, anything is possible. IMHO, the upgraded spring & plunger (either S&W or Apex) has to help, but there's a compromise between the sear spring and the trigger pull. Just between us chickens, I think S&W used the original design because it helped deal with the drop safety plunger's drag effect. Apex definitely fixed that....

That's been something of interest, at least, for a while, too. The trigger bar is, IMHO, a bit of a kludge. It works, but is subject to all kinds of QC issues at the factory, and potentially easy to mess up at our end. You may want to bend something a little and see how it behaves.

There's a little nubbin on the sear or the block (can't remember where) that Randy suggested me filing back a bit, before doing the spring mod. Didn't work, but it did point out that these things are all but stamped out, and were designed to work reliably if kept clean. I really think S&W realized that "kept clean" may be a problem in LE guns. Not that guys won't clean the bore and lube things if properly beaten on by their armorers, if any, but the sear's a "detail strip" sort of thing that I wouldn't expect the average LEO (or M&P owner) to do. Who takes the sideplates off revolvers? (Who does it without damaging something?)

Guess I can talk for Randy.... Both the upgraded S&W spring and the Apex kit springs are stronger than the original factory spring.

Just IMHO, be sure you put the RAM kit in properly, too. It's way too simple , but I'd believe anything. I've had more than one person tell me I couldn't put the drop safety levers back in a Colt Series 80 clone improperly. Wanna bet? I know I had to think about the RAM a bit. (I'm just above Bubba class. I can usually get the 1911 grips back on the correct sides. Usually....)

Anyway, don't be afraid to bend the trigger bar a bit if it feels like a good idea. I don't think S&W is scouring the streets press-ganging assemblers, but profit margins are profit margins and....

The RAM kit is supposed to force the trigger bar into proper engagement with the sear whether or not the trigger spring fails. (It does require you to manually re-cock the thing in that case.) Otherwise, the gun turns into an expensive club. Kinda Rube Goldberg to start - that spring is a long way from the sear - but I don't think it's too far off the wall. I can't see a properly adjusted trigger bar and a properly installed RAM causing any problems, but it's quite correct to presume that it could. Too many options ....

Regards,

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Stu.

Stu

I have seen the term "flutter" mentioned several times. For the life of me I can't imagine how the sear could flutter unless the sear spring was broken or totally removed. I replaces my sear spring last night with the Apex replacement and the original spring was in excellent condition. I can only conclude that it was not flutter that caused my two dead triggers last Sunday after I installed the RAM.

I believe my problem is the fit of the trigger bar which rides very close to the side of the sear during reset. I believe the RAM reduces this clearance even more during a cycle and creates enough drag to create an occasional dead trigger. Perhaps if I bend the trigger bar loop a little further away from the sear my problem will go away. Or I could just keep the RAM out. My trigger reset is fairly distinct so I probably don't need the RAM anyway.

Would you then just rack the slide to get it operational?

spirit:

Yes.... But if the trigger spring breaks, you have a single-shot pistol, if you have the RAM. Otherwise, it's a club....

Willie:

The original spring is kind of light.... When the gun discharges, the sear is going to bounce around a bit - the trigger bar doesn't do anything, and the spring just isn't enough to hold the end of the sear "up" to grab the striker under certain conditions.

I'm not sure why the DCAEK kit makes this worse, but I can see where dirt and lubrication issues could. The sear is sort of free floating, other than the plunger and spring, and depends on those parts to hold it up if the trigger bar isn't forcing it down.

I suppose that you could bend the trigger bar a little to stop the problem with the RAM kit. I'm still not sure why it'd be a problem in the first place.

I'm hoping that somebody from Apex will chime in on this one....

Regards,

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Stu.

You don't have to totally rack the slide. Just pull back enough to reset the striker.

Stu

I'm sorry but I can't see the fluttering. Even the small sear spring is quite adequate to overcome any inertial force placed on the sear during firing. My Pro9 has about 2500 rounds through it and never failed to reset until I added the RAM.

I too wish Randy or someone else from Apex would comment on this.

Because of the simplicity of the M&P design the same, small trigger return spring pulls the trigger forward and at the same time pulls the trigger bar (which also functions as the disconnector) to the left to allow it to slip under the sear.

Simple and effective. But just one spring doing both functions means a spring failure will totally disable the pistol. Pretty slim chance in a stock pistol, but it could happen.

Lightening the trigger weight by modifying this spring makes both trigger and sear reset less reliable.

-- Chuck

Well I finally sent Randy a direct email yesterday morning regarding the problems I have been having with my M&P Pro9. I noted that at least with my pistol and the shape of my trigger bar, the RAM device is too long. The end of the RAM hits the side of the frame during a cycle preventing the trigger bar from resetting out from under the sear. I ground down the end of the RAM a bit and now it seems to function ok. Widening the slot a bit would have the same effect. I only mentioned this to Randy to get his opinion and perhaps provide additional insight into the dead trigger problem which is no doubt associated with the installation of the RAM device. I know they are busy and perhaps get several of these "helpfull" emails every day but so far, no response.

Willie:

No idea what's going on here.... Randy and Scott usually are very responsive, but they've got a lot of irons in the fire right now.

Wish I could be more help, but I'm thinking that the shape of the trigger bar end is wrong - the loops too broad, or something like that.

The RAM shouldn't hit the side of the frame.... Or at least I can't see how, but it's early today. I need to look at one of mine - maybe later tonight.

Regards,

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Stu.