Was at my LGS yesterday. They had factory reps there for several companies, including LMT, S&W, and Browning. I was talking to the S&W about the M&P line, and he informed me the manual safety was going away in 2012 for all calibres. A bit disappointing to me as I like the safety and have decided to focus on M&P line for pistols.

I realize I can certainly pick up a 9C or FS right now with the safety, and may do that. Also, the Pros and VTAC not available with the thumb safety, so if go that way safety not an option.

Tommato

My S&W M&P9 has mainly one safety and that is my finger on the trigger, a manual safety could get you into trouble if your life is in jeopardy.

Nothing could be worse than pulling the trigger only to find that your weapon will not fire. If you pull the trigger it should go boom and defuse the situation right? Well if you are in a life or death situation you tend to forget all kinds of stuff!

Best safety in the world is to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot at a target or threat!

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59,M&P9,40,40C,357,(2)45,G26

This sort of thing is a 'shooter's discretion' kind of feature.Im saddened that they're discontinuing it, as it is one more advantage over the Glock series of pistols and other striker fired weapons without safties.

IMO the M&P safety sucks. Too bad S&W didn't make a better quality one.

Has anyone called CS to verify this yet? Does this mean I will have a collector item now?

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Join the NRA

Yes you will have one of the 10 million rare guns with a safety!

Sounds like someone is jealous because they didn't buy one.

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Join the NRA

Let's see now. They take the safety off the M&P autos because if they are left engaged inadvertently, the gun won't go off, and S&W could get sued for that?

But they DO keep the damn external lock on most of their revolvers, because.... why?

Something doesn't jibe here.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

It's because you haven't started drinking yet

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Forum consigliere

I heard they were doing away with the mag safety, didn't hear any news about the thumb safety though. I kinda like the thumb safety myself. Gave me a place to rest my thumb during shooting. But I'm a 1911 fanatic

I doubt they're going to be doing away with the magazine safety option, because at least 2 states require it for models sold in those states. Maybe they might make it more of an "optional" feature, like they did with the ILS.

The thumb safety option? Frankly, I'm surprised they offered it as much as they did across their model line.

In the armorer class we were told that it was originally only designed because of a specification anticipated in some pending military testing of a new .45 ACP pistol (which was suspended after some of the manufacturers had designed or modified guns in anticipation of submitting them for testing).

Naturally, once the public found out it was available in the .45, and they couldn't have it in the rest of the calibers, they started demanding it. So, S&W introduced it across much of the M&P pistol line.

If demand and sales for it have been falling off, now that the "newness" of the option has fallen off, I could see them discontinuing it in the commercial production pistols and reserving it for LE/Gov sales.

FWIW, the newest revision of the "standard" .45 sear housing block (part number remains the same) is the block designed to work with the thumb safety assembly. (It also has the larger sear plunger & plunger spring.) It can be used in either the manual safety models or the regular (no thumb safety) models.

That way they can make the frames with the thumb safety cutouts for guns specifically ordered that way, but revert to the standard frames that don't need to have the cutouts filled with those plastic "caps".

Being a long time 1911 shooter I ordered my M&P 45 with the thumb safeties. I bought my 40c in the standard configuration, though. None of my Glocks or SW99's have thumb safeties, and my thumb is trained not to reach for a thumb safety on my Glocks, SW99's, Rugers or any of my revolvers.

Like some other folks, I found the effort required to engage and disengage the thumb safety to be a bit softer than I was accustomed to using on my 1911's (which makes sense, since it's a completely different design). While the factory won't discuss any modification of the assembly (due to their legal staff), I figured out how to make a subtle modification of the lever assembly in a couple of spots so that it increased the resistance required to move the levers to something very similar to moving the safety lock levers on my 1911's. Easy to ruin a lever assembly, though, or make it so the lever can't be moved at all. Not something for the budding amateur to try as a kitchen-table 'gunsmithing project'.

I won't be at all surprised to see S&W revise and make changes to the M&P pistol line as they discover changes in market demand for the line. They did that with their SW1911 line, dropping some models which didn't sell well and devising models to better meet trends discovered by their marketing survey studies.

Just my thoughts, though.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Like you said, "shooter discretion". I don't consider a manual safety an "advantage" over Glock. I love the DAO design because I'm confident in carrying a weapon that's never cocked.
Don't pull the trigger, it doesn't go boom.

It's an option now. You can order a gun with it or without it.

If they do away with the manual safety option, I don't believe they can sell them in California after the 'grandfathering' expires.

We [unfortunately] have a 'list' of approved firearms. If they don't have a visible loaded chamber indicator [visible from 25 feet away, which M&P does NOT have], a mag disconnect AND a manual safety, new semi-auto handgun designs cannot be sold here.

Damn state and their stupid rules.

My first thought is that this would be done by S&W to reduce variants, and thus save money.

On the other hand, if the M&P wins the Army contract, it is likely to be produced with a safety -- since the Army seems to think that is an important feature -- so the models with the safety might stay in the lineup after all.

The mag safety is perhaps useful to a policeman who might get his gun taken away -- and can eject the magazine as he/she loses control of the gun, rendering it unable to fire the round in the chamber. This seems like a statistically remote scenario, but I've read articles swearing that it has happened. (Likewise, safeties on guns have thwarted criminals who took the gun from an officer but don't know how to turn it on).

Anyway, buy whichever M&P you want now, because they'll only get more expensive in the future. Me? I'm getting a M&P 40C with mag safety, because it is cheaper and does not have the safety warning on the side, then I will remove the little mag safety lever and install a factory-original spacer spring in its place!

I'll say this, I have a 9c with the safety, IMHO I like having the extra protection, and it takes me no extra time to disengage the safety. It was one of the features that caused me to purchase it over a glock. On top of that if for whatever reason I decide that I don't need the safety anymore I can easily remove it. I think that S&W should keep it as a special order option that way people still have the choice.

I bought a M&P9c with the thumb safety from Bud's some time back when they were $439 shipped. After taking an advanced class, and seeing how poorly I performed under pressure with it, I took it to a smith and had the safety removed. That was when S&W would send you the frame plugs for free.

Problem solved. The best and most reliable safety is the one between your ears.

What I meant by "more of an option" is that it might be produced as an available option less often, barring a demand by a distributor or area.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I'm new to M&P's, so perhaps someone here can answer this ref. the manual safeties.... Based on some of the above posts, it seems you can either remove the safety or just not use it and still have a pistol that is as "safe" as a Glock or non-safety M&P? Am I on the right track here? Thanks

arjoe:

Correct.... The thumb safety on the M&P series, while functional, is kinda overkill. The basic design just doesn't need it....

Us 1911 guys like 'em, because we're used to them, but if you read Fastbolt's comments, you may need a smith to diddle the thing a little bit for a slightly more positive effect.

In this case, the thumb safety is about as useful as a cocking indicator visible 25' away.... (Did I read that right? Sheesh....)

I'm used to it, anyway, and tend to get a little confused if I try to flick it off and it's not there, but that's a heck of a lot less of a problem than finding that it adjusted itself, needs to be flicked backwards (like my old M39), or that it's there at all when I didn't expect it.

Rover:

Just IMHO, but having the time and presence of mind to drop a magazine during some kind of gun retention exercise may be expecting too much. IMHO, the only real use for the thing is when you keep a gun on a nightstand and the kids are too little to ram the magazine home. You still run the risk of the magazine ending up on the floor , but it's quick.

Never assume that the BG won't know how to work safeties & such. When they're not bodybuilding, knifing each other, etc., they study disarmament techniques....

FB: Just FWIW, if you trash the thumb safety while trying to modify it, a replacement is cheap, and you can carry the gun without it .... My 40C's is about right.... I think I told you that I took a 9C frame and put a 40C slide on top to get the thumb safety without swapping sears. Seemed like a good idea at the time , except that the 40C now has the old sear spring and plunger....

As to S&W dropping the manual safety, I suppose it really doesn't matter much. The thumb safety diehards (presuming the Military doesn't get into the act, or someplace like CA doesn't demand it) might go someplace else, but I think the target market for these things is a step lower .

My 40FS was just for the range, and 'cause I wanted a .40.... (Although I have been known to carry it once in a while.) The 40C was intended as a sort of pocket-cannon - a serious stopper, without the weight and other considerations of the small 1911's. It's also an "airline travel" gun - one I wouldn't lose too much sleep over if all I got at the end of a flight (hopefully a return flight!) was a check. The 9C was for my daughter, who promptly decided to move to New York. That got cancelled, and she ended up in El Paso TX, but is living with my seriously anti sister.

Had a chance to visit El Paso over the first of this month. We drove by a Luby's, and I explained that story to my wife. Someday....

Regards,

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Stu.

You can't always depend on your finger as your safety. There are many ways a trigger can be activated, and a finger is only one of those things. Lots of accidental/negligent discharges occur due to snags on other objects such as clothing or misc obstructions in and around the holster. Unless you are already very experienced at carrying and habitually careful all the time, i think that the risk of a discharge is greater than the chance of getting attacked and failing to deactivate the safety.

If revolvers do not have a safety I will never understand, save CA and some other loony jurisdictions, why one is necessary on a DAO pistol.

My rant is now over and I feel better.

DAO on a striker fire gun like the M&P is completely different than DAO on a revolver. Revolvers have heavy DAO triggers that allow them to be carried safely w/o a safety. Even if I am technically wrong, I still think glock-based striker fire pistols like the M&P are really SAO, and it does not take much to activate the trigger.

You were a cop during the transistion era, don't you know that pistols are scary, unreliable, and dangerous?

Fewer safeties just means more SIGWs. I've heard all the arguments against manual safeties ad nauseum. I guess the proof is in the pudding. All you have to do is search the internet and there are lists of incidents of ADs and NDs.

Not to pick on you SMMA because I think you are a smart fella and I enjoy your posts, but the idea of keeping a loaded gun on a nightstand with a round in the chamber is just crazy. The mag disconnect is easily defeated. Like I said in another post, I could stuff a napkin or a sponge in the mag well and the gun will fire.

IF a person were to leave a weapon on a nightstand with a toddler around (again, NOT my idea) I would think it to be a lot safer to have a loaded magazine but no round in the chamber. Like some people carry that way. Most kids can't rack the slide (my 10 year old can't).

I used to hide a gun in the nightstand, but once the kids got old enough to walk around and open doors, I began keeping the nightstand gun separate from the ammo. I'd have to grab the gun and get the speed loader from on top of the closet shelf where it was hidden under a sweatshirt, load the gun and then take on a bad guy.

Now I just have a gun ready to go in a locked box. And the kids are old enough that I have shown them how to open the box and retrieve the gun. The youngest one not yet, he's only ten and although he is safe and a great shot, he's still at the 'show your friends the cool stuff' age and nobody is getting shot accidently in my house...

Lost Lake:

Picking on me is forbidden....

If the kids are old enough to figure out the sponge or napkin, it's time for a change of tactics....

Safe enough prior to that....

My daughter was always too small to operate the trigger until she was old enough to join me on the range (as in drive out there and meet me!).

IAC, you're doing it right! You have to demystify the whole thing, while making sure they realize the damage potential, and that the "target" doesn't necessarily come back all fine next week. Blow up some water jugs, and let 'em shoot when they're big enough.

(BTW, it's "Stu". "SMM Associates" is my business. Way back when, we couldn't use a space, so I had an underscore in there. Many of my clients had no idea what that was. Since I couldn't use a space, I just squished things together. )

Regards,

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Stu.

I know, that's why I'm not picking on you.... But what I'm saying, and not to you Stu, I know you know what we all know, but some others may be reading in and get the wrong impression.... Kids do stuff that is unreasonable....

I don't think you'd feel comfortable giving a two year old a loaded M&P with the mag out and letting the child play with it knowing it is 'safe'. That open mag well is just begging for Mr. Fluffy's foot to be stuffed in there, or maybe a little tea cup will fit! Now the mag safety is defeated and the gun is live....

Stu is the name I use to check in at restaurants!
Stu Pidasso. I never tire of hearing them page me over the intercom... Men never do grow up really....

Lost Lake:

Agreed.... I think my attack cats would figure out the "Mr. Fluffy" thing.... (We moved in with mom about two years ago to help take care of her - she's 96. I put a spring loaded door hinge on our bedroom to retain some sort of privacy with caregivers all over the house when the wife & I were "off duty". Sammy, the dog, would get himself into the bedroom, and pester to be let out. The Attack Cats figured out how to bash the door just enough to get it to bounce back. About the third bash/bounce, they could get a paw around the thing and pull it open. And you wonder why I'm armed.... )

Must have been something I said, but mom decided to "Winter" in El Paso last Thanksgiving, and hasn't bothered to come back yet. (We flew down to see her over the first of September.) The cats missed us. Sammy didn't want to leave the kennel. Something about "those darn cats"....

Back to topic, it's really going to depend on the kids, and some common sense storage techniques. I never worried about my daughter as a two-year-old, but by the time she was four, other methods were necessary.

One failure was a large gun box in the office. About when she turned 3, we moved, and I put some papers in the box, as well as the guns, when I moved it. Figured the mud monster was asleep, so I opened the box (my office was across the hall from her bedroom), and started looking for the papers. She wandered in, and immediately grabbed my old S&W M19. She could barely lift it, but had to look at it. (Unloaded, of course.) At some point she found an old .22 "starter pistol" sort of thing - designed to actually shoot, and I said something like "that's about your size." Of course, she wanted it. I would have snapped the firing pin off and given it to her, but I started to think about the neighbors. Somebody might know what it used to be.... New neighbors and all that....

Regards,

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Stu.

Just to add to the confusion:

On Spetember 12 of this year I attended the S&W M&P Armorer's Course. During the course we were told that all new M&Ps off the line would be thumb safety compatible with the exception of the internal lock version which would retain the older style frame. There was no mention of the mag safety going away either.

The thumb safety is NOT going away. Doubt the mag safety will either.

A perk of the course was the option to buy an M&P at a heavily discounted price. So I did with the intention of buying the TS components for install at a later date.

Fast forward to the beginning of this month and the M&P showed up direct from S&W. Test fired two days before I got it. The frame was the older non-safety type. Go figure.....

As a side note, the slide is lacking the STAINLESS marking.

coogan:

Go stand in a corner....

There's enough paranoia in the Chairborne Rangers (i.e., LE "Brass") to presume that none of these things except the Hilary Lock are likely to go away, although most of us know that the thumb safety is probably only of value for those who are used to one being there from 1911 experience.

Can't win....

Regards,

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Stu.

This is exactly what I've read posted by Randy from Apex Tactical in a few places:

M4Carbine.net Post #71 & 73

Our plan is to have new everything...or in a nutshell you buy the frame, and everything else is Apex.

There are several improvements I would like to implement that would require a new slide design ( Apex Tactical slide assembly ) and trigger bar/sear system/sear block. I am waiting for Smith to finalize their design changes that they are currently phasing in before I continue with my version. With any luck the first phase of this project will be shown and run at the 2012 Bianchi Cup. A 5" Pro and 9L that deliver 1.5" @ 50 yds. or better. ( 2010 Bianchi was in Nov. so then in Nov. of 2012 ? )
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#73
Smith is streamlining their production process. The newest frames for the 9/40 are using the same mold that is used for the thumb safety versions. This means they have a single frame which can be set up for thumb safeties or non TS simply by adding or removing the filler pads (or thumb safety levers) as seen on the 45 guns. They are also using the same sear blocks that the thumb safety guns are using.

The M&P is in for a radical change within the next 2 years.

Oh, and a .22 conversion...

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I think it's a great idea, save them time and money. I am really looking forward to an Apex M&P .22lr conversion also. Who knows how long it'll be here though, maybe next year at this time Or probably two summers from now for sure if they actually go through with it.

This is exactly what I've read from Randy at Apex Tactical in a few places:
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M4Carbine.net Post #71 & 73

Our plan is to have new everything...or in a nutshell you buy the frame, and everything else is Apex.

There are several improvements I would like to implement that would require a new slide design ( Apex Tactical slide assembly ) and trigger bar/sear system/sear block. I am waiting for Smith to finalize their design changes that they are currently phasing in before I continue with my version. With any luck the first phase of this project will be shown and run at the 2012 Bianchi Cup. A 5" Pro and 9L that deliver 1.5" @ 50 yds. or better. ( 2010 Bianchi was in Nov. so then in Nov. of 2012 ? )
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#73
Smith is streamlining their production process. The newest frames for the 9/40 are using the same mold that is used for the thumb safety versions. This means they have a single frame which can be set up for thumb safeties or non TS simply by adding or removing the filler pads (or thumb safety levers) as seen on the 45 guns. They are also using the same sear blocks that the thumb safety guns are using.

The M&P is in for a radical change within the next 2 years.

Oh, and a .22 conversion...
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#80
Are you able to expand on this point? Is S&W seriously planning a conversion slide kit that you can drop onto an existing M&P?

--

Smith probably won't, but we plan on entering the 22 market...

-Randy

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I think it's a great idea, save them time and money. I am really looking forward to an Apex M&P .22lr conversion also. Who knows how long it'll be here though, maybe next year at this time Or probably two summers from now for sure if they actually go through with it.