Many of you probably saw my earlier thread trying to understand which way to go with Apex Kits and Trigger Work. Everyone seems to recommend trigger work so I'm a NooB trying to do his homework :-)

Anyway, what I have learned so far is that the
- M&P 45 (mid-sized)(My Gun) supposedly ships with about 6.5lbs Trigger Pull.
- The DCAEK would bring result in about 5.0-5.5lbs Trigger Pull
- The FSS would result in about 4.0-5.0lbs Trigger Pull
- The Competition Kit would result in about 2.5lb Trigger Pull

So, today's question(s)
- What is the "recommended" trigger pull for a Carry Gun? If there even is such a thing, realizing there are lot's of factors.
- What Guns might I find on my LGS rental shelf with 4.0-5.0 lb trigger pulls to actually try.

THANKS,

Best weight for my carry gun: 5-6 lbs. Others will chime in with different responses. It's a subjective debate and depends on the shooter.

I think it depends on your level of training, and what you do for a living. LEO's and others who use guns for a living can probably be safe with a lower trigger pull than someone like myself. In a fight or flight situation I feel comfortable with no less than 4 Lb. (mine is right at 4.5 Lb)

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Gerry

All of my CCW's are double action only. Most are Sigs with the DAK trigger. The trigger pull on them is 6.5 - 7lbs.

I don't. Most other instructors I know also recomend caution with modifying a carry gun.
I even shoot a stock M&P Pro 5" in IDPA/SSP and USPSA Production, and feel no need for a lighter trigger. You see, I am a long-time revolver shooter and find the stock M&P trigger just fine.

There are two categories of shooters who AWAYS want to modify the M&P trigger: those who want it to be as like their 1911/2011 as possible, and those who want to modify every gun they get.
For the rest of the shooters, some do, some don't.

My recommendation to is take a gun class or two with a stock M&P and learn to shoot it. Then you can make a rational decision based on your training and experience.

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Science plus Art

How do I get a FSS to pull at 3 pounds?

okfc05 is absolutely right with his advice! Get some training first before you modify anything.Then shoot the heck out of it.

Randy

It depends on the gun in a general sense, J frame revolvers can be smoothed for example, but lessening it much is asking for FTF's. Ideal trigger pull depends on the shooter and the type of gun. I like 3.5 for 1911's and 4-5 on other guns.


To answer your specific M&P example, 2.5 is too light, a case of the nerves and you could easily get an unwanted discharge. Any of the rest ought to be fine.

OKF makes a good point. You need to realize anything you do to alter the gun is subject to scrutiny in the aftermath of a shooting. Doing anything that changes the way the manufacturer sets the gun up can and probably will be questioned. As a general rule of thumb, there are industry norms for the various aspects of a gun. My understanding from expert witnesses is that 3.5 is considered the bottom of the normal band of trigger pulls, anything under that can be argued as abnormal. You will have to decide what you can and can't live with in the area.

I will say this though, I answered you from a Carry Standpoint only. If you are LEO etc you should check with your Dept Policy, I'm sure they have set requirements/standards. My opinion is I would find a stock gun I liked and not alter a thing. The scrutiny level police shootings get and the deep pockets of Government are not conducive to giving a Plaintiff anything to question, in my opinion.

A clean shoot is a clean shoot. I wouldnt even answer questions of that nature.

Questions in court are not asked on an optional basis....

The stock trigger that comes with the gun. People who recommend trigger work for average people are usually those who only use their guns at the range for punching paper. Carrying a gun is a very serious matter, and the last thing you want is a super light modified trigger when the adrenaline is pumping and six pounds feels like three, or three pounds feels like one.

If you can't place accurate shots with a 6-7 lbs trigger, you need more training and practice, not trigger work. Take the $100 or whatever you are planning to spend on trigger parts, and spend it on a basic pistol course. That will do much more for you in the end.

Amendment 5 says they are.

With the exception of when the govt. interferes, gun makers usually have a good reason for setting their triggers up the way they do and I'm not a big proponent of changing them. Especially for C&C, I leave my triggers right where the manufacturer set them.


For some people, who are involved in serious, organized competitions, I can see why they'd do it--it begins to make sense. A similar case can be made for a police officers, provided they train with that gun/s (too many train too little) they really might require a very light trigger. There are some very rough neighborhoods officers patrol, where getting off a very quick shot is important in a bad situation.

Most of the guys with I see with 2.5 pound trigger pulls have no real reason to require such. The really, really good shots--the aces in competitions, don't talk about how light their trigger is, informally on or off the range, unless you ask them and they want to divulge. Their performance does the talking.

Honestly, some of the folks with really light triggers tend to brag about their 'hairpin triggers' and along with bragging, they often have other bad habits. I don't feel comfortable safety wise at the range with that sort, to the point where I don't go out to the free, open air range with my family, because of the 'loose screws' out there, some of them boozed up, shooting modified weapons.

The only reason to modify a weapon or its ammunition is to increase its accuracy. That increase in accuracy is an increase in safety. With a safer, more accurate firearm, there is less chance of an innocent being shot.

Stainless, Have you actually been on the stand in court, ever, outside of traffic court?

Taking the 5th can be used against you in civil matters and it does not win you any friends in a criminal trial. Second of all, they take your gun and test it, take it apart, check for alterations etc. So when I said raise questions I did mean things you will always be the one to answer. Also, if you are LEO and involved in a shooting, hopefully your Dept will stand behind you, in that case you absolutely will be testifying or you are done.

did not mean you will always--typo

OKFC
You made excellent points but one of them is slightly misguided! You said you have a stock M&P Pro and the trigger is just fine and your right but, a stock M&P does not have the same trigger as your pro version! I worked in a LGS and ordered and own M&P's 5 of them and the Pro trigger is excellent and the regular M&P's are basically garbage but with a small amount of work which almost all IDPA and USPSA shooters do,can be as smooth and clean breaking as the PRO version! JMHO.

Courtroom lawyers will typically ask for a gun involved in a shooting to be examined for modifications. If you're in a shooting, your gun will typically be taken into state custody, pending legal hearings. It will be a while before you get it back. That's one reason why I never C&C a trophy gun in public.

If they see that any modifications have been done to the gun, especially the trigger, they very often will make the shooter out to be, to put it nicely, 'over zealous' - 'out to get people' or worse. Sometimes the jury and even a judge will buy that B.S. hook, line and sinker and an otherwise 'justifiable shooting' maybe deemed a liable offense.

Fair?--no, not usually, but that's justice in America today.

I got a Pro, and I hate the trigger, can't wait until I can get the FSS, RAM and Comp Spring.

I don't feel comfortable carrying it until after I get it modified.

OK, so if asked why the gun was modded, I would just tell them the truth. I didnt feel that carrying a gun with a trigger like it was, would be a safe thing to do.

Cant hit c r a p with the M&P, and its a 5", I can out shoot myself with the 3" XD any day of the week. Its a nice gun, with great potential, but it needs work. S&W just didn't finish the gun before it went into production.

I always thought a heavy trigger pull for carry was a good idea. Your nervous and it won't go off that easy or accidentally.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Why would your finger be on the trigger?

Because in a very stressful situation, you go into survival mode. You have no feel of the trigger pull weight, you do not imediately realize your slide is locked back, and that spare magazine will no longer fit your pistol. Anyone that has been in a firefight please feel free to disagree.

In a life and death situation where else would your finger be?

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Along the side of the frame where it belongs.

And if you miss the trigger trying to find it at the moment of need? That's why your carry needs a heavy DA trigger, so you can have your finger on it.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Bull. If you cant find the trigger, leave it at home. If you're shooting multiple rounds in quick succession, you need a manageable trigger to maintain accuracy and control, especially if you have innocents in the area.

If this is the case, IMHO you should leave the M&P at home and use the XD as your CCW.

you dont go to court to become some Jury's friend. You go because the prosecution believes it can prove you committed a crime, not because people don't like you for having Constitutional rights.
Being a citizen of the great State of Florida, I can attest to this.. The entire world hates Casey Anthony, but guess what..

I do. The stock M&P is a joke. Can't carry it until I have the trigger redone. I should have bought an XDM.

I'd suggest you install the Apex parts and then revisit that. It would be nice if M&P came that way from S&W, but it doesn't. Fortunately, folks (like Apex) have figured out how to improve the function. If you still don't like it afterwards, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to recover your investment. Just a thought.

Different strokes for different folks. I shoot my stock M&P 9c just about the same as my M&P pro.

Didn't like the XD I shot at all.

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

Everyone who answered that messing with the trigger is a potential disaster is right. i use to and never had a mishap, but realized that its better to learn to shoot them than tinker with them. I installed 3.5s in Glocks with no imptovements in my shooting. I just jerked the trigger faster is all. i started paying attention to the fundamentals, ie front sight and trigger press, and saw my hits going where I wanted them. Training out-performs tinkering. I do not care for the Sig 228, but after 5000rounds expended in an academy session, I managed the gun well in steel competetion to smoke an instructor with a tricked out G17 and ISPC experience. I carried Glocks for a lot of years out of preference and got accustomed to a 5.5 lb trigger. My M&P 45 with its factory trigger and a lot of dryfiring and range time is comfortable for me. I do have three K-frame revolvers with trigger job, but they were done to bring the pull down to 7.5 - 8 lbs - same range as an M&P or a Glock NY1. Anyway I dont carry them anymkre and probably never will. If you shoot better with an XD, thats what you should carry. Otherwise spend your money taking a class that requres you to expend a good 1000 round over the course of the week with quality instruction. If its all about triggers, check out FNH's new FNS 9 and 40 striker fired pistols. They have the best trigger for a plastic striker fired gun I've seen to date. Very crisp.

FLK--thank you for your expertise and experience based on watching TV, did you sleep in a Holiday Inn as well? What's next, Quantum Mechanics?

Good job on the reading comprehension too, skipping right over the differences between civil and criminal court burden of proof, the fact experts testify without you opening your mouth etc...and you are right, all the experts are wrong, a jury's opinion of you never makes a difference. Just keep going like you are, you'll be just fine.

You know it all, so I won't bother to respond to you again, as a matter of fact, I'm sure you know what I would say anyway.

So how many shootouts have you been in? Sorry but I respectfully disagree. When definite peril has been identified I want as few a things to do as possible to defend mine and fumbling for the trigger while crapping in my pants is too much to do. That's why you carry something like My SP. The heavy DA pull means that you shoot when intended. With a light trigger your scenario could cause you to find the trigger and pull it due to adrenaline.

Now if peril hasn't been identified my finger is down the side and on the guard in front of the trigger.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

I have both XDm and M&P pistols and yes the XDm trigger is a bit smoother, with shorter reset, but my particular M&P's trigger is just fine. I said 'my particular M&P' because there's been some variation in trigger feel from one M&P to another and more recent ones seem to be smoother, with less grittiness, although by and large they've always been better than most guns in their price category IMO.

I have a S&W Bodyguard 380 that has about a 14 pound trigger and with my large hands, I'm just about scratching my nose by the time it fires--the pull's realllly long. But I wouldn't change it, despite my world class gunsmith wanting me to. Why? Because it's mainly in my front pocket when I'm dressed up and I have a long key chain with several keys on it in that pocket sometimes. I won't test it, but I bet I could pull that gun out by the key chain and it wouldn't fire. If I'm in a remotely unsafe place (driving in the city or walking from a nice restaurant to our car for example) my keys won't be in the same pocket. Regardless, if I have to draw that gun and shoot under duress, there won't be any measurable difference in how long it takes me to draw back and engage that trigger, whether it's a 2 or 14 pound trigger. When your adrenaline's pumping, instinct and hopefully sound training sets in and you're going to shoot when necessary--it's very different than when you're on the range, trying to unload a magazine quickly and shoot tight groups.

The gun in the shooting won't be in your posession. Trigger pull gauges are cheap for the DA and PD to use.

PLEASE don't put anything in a pocket with a weapon.

Yea, I'll admit--even with a pocket holster, which I do use--you're still right--it's NOT a good thing to do.....

They can gauge the pull all they want to. It wont turn a clean shoot into a crime. If it was within the self defense act, it doesnt matter if you have a 3 pound pull, a 12 pound pull, or hit the guy with a 12 pound hammer.

Many believe (myself included) that any tampering with a gun can and will be brought up in a court of law by a prosecutor looking to hang someone and make a name for himself.

He will try to convince the jury that you were looking for trouble, that you had your gun made super sensitive and quick to fire. You rolled your own, you carved 'death to commies' on your grips, whatever.

One great point I read (may have been Massad, not sure) is in a civil case, you will be asked how many times you fired etc. There is a fantastic chance that you will not be sure. A lightened trigger may lead to the jury believing you 'accidently' fired the last shot that killed the perp.

Then there was something about an accidental shooting and insurance coverage that I don't quite remember (help me out here guys!). What I remember is that if you needed to defend yourself, you want the jury to believe that every shot was a necessary shot to stop the threat. If there is a chance that the gun discharged one extra time, and you have a trigger lighter than the factory engineers determined was a safe and usual trigger pull, you are in a deep hole and fighting your way out....

In the end you gotta do what you think is right, and if you ever need to put a man down I hope everything works out for you.

sorry, but you can take the 5th on any question that may incriminate you. not only that but last i knew you were not required to testify on your behalf to begin with.

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" what would God think?"

The prosecutor will try anything in the book, I agree.

to be fair, so will defense. justice is not about right and wrong, its about who can argue better.

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" what would God think?"

When all the dust settles here, the old addage "it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" still wins the argument! Just make sure the other guy in the fight never gets to testify!
Remember Bernard Goetz in the N.Y. when he only wounded his attackers!

I'm not a LEO, and I don't even carry. In fact, I'm fairly new to this world (just got my first a few weeks ago... an MP .45). Assuming that 'justice' as has been said is about what can be proven more than what may be true, and or may be dependant on who can argue better, then why give the opposition another tool to use against you? Take a chance that they have a better lawyer than you do.

A friend of mine was teaching me to shoot with a Sig that had a 4.5 lb trigger pull and I got very comfortable with that. I decided on buying a MP .45 because of how it felt in my hand. When I got it a few weeks ago, I was quite discouraged after putting the first 150 rounds through it because I was all over the place. I thought I picked the wrong gun. My friend tried it and said I just had to get used to the heavy trigger pull. I have been doing some dry firing, and have put a few more hundred rounds through it since and am starting to get the feel for it and am enjoying it very much. The point being, if a newbie such as myself can get used to it, I'm sure a seasoned pro can. Why take the chance of modifying a weapon and leaving justice in the hands of lawyers? From all the research I've been doing regarding gun ownership (the castle doctrine, carrying, traveling with, shipping, etc...) that's one of the first things a prosecutor looks for in a shooting. How do you know your lawyer is better than theirs? You willing to take that chance?

Part of the responsibility in the right to carry a gun, is being able to place your shots accurately. If reloading or an upgraded part helps you do that, then that is what you should do.

They dont make you more guilty of speeding in a porsche than a prius.

Well, sorta, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, it's not exactly allowed to do it question by question. If the defendant chooses to testify on his behalf (optional) then does not submit to cross examination (takes the 5th), the entire testimony can be tossed out.
In other words, you can choose to testify or not, but if you testify, you have to answer legit questions. Strongly suggest consulting with a lawyer who specializes in criminal law in the jurisdiction of interest. IANAL Rules in civil suits are different, and it may not be possible to avoid testifying.

A recent case in OK involving a pharmacist repeatedly shooting a downed robber (after taking time to get another gun) resulted in the defendant choosing NOT to testify after the security tape was shown to the jury. He is now in state prison serving his sentence for murder.
There was a civil suit filed also.

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Science plus Art

i saw that video and he deserved to be tried and imprisoned. he went from self defense to murder, plain as day. and it didnt happen exactly like you said, not only was the perp down, he was face down on the floor with gunshot wounds, the pharmacist went OUTSIDE after the other perp, came back in, grabbed another gun and proceeded to shoot the already down and wounded perp IN THE BACK multiple times..

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" what would God think?"

Given the graphic and horrific nature of that security tape, I never understood why the defendant demanded a jury trial when it became clear that the prosecution was cleared to use the tape. Certainly the jury showed him not the least bit of sympathy and a guilty plea might have gotten him a lighter sentence before a judge? I listened to the entire trial and thought the defense presented was l-a-m-e trying to justify it.
Just my personal opinion, "I made a horrible mistake in the heat of the moment and I'm profoundly sorry" with a plea to manslaughter would have been more realistic.

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Science plus Art