M&P 9mm inherent accuracy problems?

walkin' trails · #**101** 05-16-2014, 09:09 PM

The FS 9 may not be the most accurate at 25 yards, but for me, it's still shooter induced and not the gun. When I first got my FS 45, I shot a sub three inch at 25 yards. As time passed, I got sloppy. I used my 9 during a Pat McNamara TAPS class a couple of weeks ago, and it performed well. Mac watches the line subtly and diagnosed how I was subconsciously staging the trigger. A month ago, I went to a match with a Glock 17 and shot groups that were just as bad as with my M&P. BTW - Ialso put a few rounds thru a Salient Arms G17, and while it is a very nice shooting pistol, I found I could miss just as well as with my stock M&P 9 if I didn't take the time to ensure my sights were on target before pressing the trigger. The M&P 9 may have had some issues, but so do a lot of shooters.

turbo38gn · #**102** 05-16-2014, 09:33 PM

If my MP shoots left... I drift my sight... I think that's what most shooters would do first... especially if aiming right brings the gun back on target... why would you send a gun back for that... cause #5 looked like it had some good hits...

Rastoff · #**103** 05-16-2014, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo38gn

...cause #5 looked like it had some good hits...

What? I don't know what this means.

You guys do realize that this thread is over two years old, right?

turbo38gn · #**104** 05-16-2014, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brocktice

Ever since I got my FS I thought I'd suddenly become a terrible shot. Never had a problem with my 9c. Yesterday I finally took them out to the range together, along with my brother-in-law's 9L and shot at 25 yards from a rest. The 9c (with full-size mag and X-grip adapter) and 9L were great. The FS9 was way left and scattered all over the place. I've attached two sets of targets labeled C3, C4, C5, and FS3, FS4, FS5. They were shot from a bench rest (which I'm not accustomed to), in alternating order (C3, FS3, C4, FS4, C5, FS5). The 9L was the most accurate, with 3/5 of shots in the black on two targets (probably largely due to sight radius).

Given that the triggers and form factors are nearly identical between the guns, I no longer think the issue is trigger control. Coming from a 1911 I initially thought that was the issue.

I've emailed S&W these results and requested they have a look at the FS. The only thing I can think of that would cause it is that there appears to be a large gap at the front of the locking block on the FS that's not there on the 9c or my BIL's 9L, that allows some extra play.

EDIT: Oh, and the FS shoots WAY left. On the bottom target, FS5, I aimed substantially to the right and got them more on the paper, at least.

EDIT2: Just for reference, I measured the groups from the 9c, and they are 3-4". For the FS, well, it's basically larger than the whole target.

I responded to this.... written today.. you do realize that.. right?

brocktice · #**105** 05-17-2014, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo38gn

If my MP shoots left... I drift my sight... I think that's what most shooters would do first... especially if aiming right brings the gun back on target... why would you send a gun back for that... cause #5 looked like it had some good hits...

If it were just shooting left that's what I'd do. However, "some good hits", spread out 2x as wide as my groups with the compact version of the same gun, is not how the FS should be shooting. I compared it against a 9c and a 9L. Two other guys were there with me and reassured me that I was not crazy, it was a stark difference in accuracy.

The first set of targets, FS1&2, and C1&2, were actually placed next to each other. The leftward shots from the FS ended up on the C1 and C2 targets, so I could clearly see how spread out they were. I can take pics of those if you'd like.

I shot 5 targets in this test session, and I've been shooting the gun for months now at IDPA, practice, and formal training. The problem is not just shooting left. It throws flyers every other round or so, randomly, even with a great steady hand and trigger control.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I thought it was better than starting a brand new on on the same subject. I found this thread a couple of months ago when I first suspected a problem, and it was helpful, so I thought I'd report my findings here.

bfm · #**106** 05-17-2014, 12:36 PM

As mentioned, early M&P 9mm had a different twist rate than the current ones and would not stabilize all bullet weights equally well.

Read this and the links in the story for more details.

Glock vs. M&P revisited | Modern Service Weapons

ar15newbie57 · #**107** 05-17-2014, 03:45 PM

I'm a new M&P 9mm owner and I have been happy with it. Like another poster commented, I as a newbie with it do have a tendency to shoot low & left unless I really take my time with that trigger pull. I am working on getting a smoother, steadier motion on that long trigger pull, but that is me, not the firearm. When I pull the trigger correctly, that baby is almost as accurate for me as my Ruger Mark III .22lr (Just as a side note, I thought the Mark III was a problem gun when I bought it as my very first semi-auto pistol, now I love that little tack-driver. It will always be more accurate than I am, which is probably the norm for all good name brand guns unless you are a real crack shot.)

brocktice · #**108** 05-17-2014, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfm

As mentioned, early M&P 9mm had a different twist rate than the current ones and would not stabilize all bullet weights equally well.

Mine has the 1:10 twist.

Rastoff · #**109** 05-17-2014, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo38gn

I responded to this.... written today.. you do realize that.. right?

No, I didn't realize that because in that post there is nothing referencing "cause #5" which is why I asked.

turbo38gn · #**110** 05-17-2014, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

No, I didn't realize that because in that post there is nothing referencing "cause #5" which is why I asked.

that's a pretty dumb cut out of what I said... but I guess if you are looking for something to pick on... then you focus on a piece of the sentence and not the whole sentence.. but then I'll leave it at that as I'm really not into playing semantics with you tonite after burying my FIL today...

ralph7 · #**111** 05-17-2014, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo38gn

that's a pretty dumb cut out of what I said... but I guess if you are looking for something to pick on... then you focus on a piece of the sentence and not the whole sentence.. but then I'll leave it at that as I'm really not into playing semantics with you tonite after burying my FIL today...

Sorry for your loss.

Rastoff · #**112** 05-17-2014, 08:57 PM

I'm sorry for your loss Jack.

I wasn't arguing semantics. I just didn't understand what you meant.

OK, I just read it again a few times. I get it now. You meant, "...because target #5 looked like it had some good hits." Sorry for my lack of understanding.

PERAZZI · #**113** 05-17-2014, 10:03 PM

I gave up. sold the FS 9. Bought a Springfield Armory loaded 9mm.

now it shoots 3" groups at 50 yds like a good Smith & Wesson should.

Loved the MP 9 egonomics. absolutely the worst accuracy of any handgun I've ever owned. My 1881 Webley Bulldog 442 shot better ...

Jim Chapman
Hell, Michigan

brocktice · #**114** 05-18-2014, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PERAZZI

I gave up. sold the FS 9.

Given that the accuracy of several other M&P models I have tested is just fine, I am really surprised at how many reports of problems there are with the FS9. My FS9 is going back to S&W as soon as they send me a label, we'll see how it goes.

My local gunsmith said that if my barrel has the dimple forward of the locking lugs, they won't replace it, I guess because that means it has the 1:10 twist rate, but I think this is more likely an issue with lockup/timing. Here's hoping they fix it, because I otherwise really like the gun. For now I'm carrying my 9c instead.

00stormbringer · #**115** 05-18-2014, 01:02 PM

400 meter shot with an M&P 9mm pistol by champion shooter, Jerry Miculek! - YouTube

brocktice · #**116** 05-18-2014, 02:35 PM

That's a 9L CORE series. I had no problems with the accuracy of my brother-in-law's 9L at the same range session. It's just the FS9, and from what I understand it's not all of them.

M29since14 · #**117** 05-19-2014, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PERAZZI

I gave up. sold the FS 9. Bought a Springfield Armory loaded 9mm.

now it shoots 3" groups at 50 yds like a good Smith & Wesson should.

That is a 1911, I presume? I have fired a few XD and XDM pistols and never saw one shoot like that.

My latest M&P9 is in fact a "H" version of the gun. I certainly don't want to argue since I have only one and others may have experience with many more guns, but my trigger is hardly "awesome," though it does seem to be a slight improvement over my earlier guns.

The accuracy problem is still there. My gun can be anything from excellent to unacceptable, all in one session - just depending on whether the five-round group I am firing at the time gets a "flyer" - or two - or three. I have had groups as small as 1-5/8" and over 7-inches. Same gun, same ammo, same session, same shooter. The gun does not seem to favor any particular ammunition, but with accuracy like that it is hard to tell.

Back in the sixties and seventies if I had bought an S&W revolver that shot like that I would have wanted to throw it off a bridge! Holding a lot of 9mm cartridges in the magazine is not some sort of solution to the basic problem of handgunning (which is hitting what you are aiming at) as far as I am concerned.

Ofc.JL · #**118** 05-19-2014, 10:23 AM

Hmm. M29, it Sounds like a barrel and/or a barrel fit problem. Of course I am just guessing, too. I do think that the M&P series of handguns is prone to having bad accuracy issues w/ poor barrel fit. As in an excessive amount of space on the barrel hood. A lot of the earlier M&P's suffering from poor accuracy had just that issue, among others. S&W said they addressed that issue, among others during manufacture, but QC might have let one slip. I have seen absolutely mismachined barrels in several brands of guns, to include S&W. On brand new guns! Things that just shouldn't have gotten by QC, but did.
Send that bad boy back to S&W now. Let them find the problem and correct it. Or sell it and get another "H" series M&P. Just don't give up on M&P's. They are by far, the best feeling, most comfortable, easy to shoot, accurate, and simple, workhorse of a pistol I have ever owned. And Brother, I have owned dang near all of them, over the years.
Ofc.JL

Ofc.JL · #**119** 05-19-2014, 10:34 AM

Well, IMHO, anyhow.

M29since14 · #**120** 05-19-2014, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ofc.JL

...I do think that the M&P series of handguns is prone to having bad accuracy issues w/ poor barrel fit. As in an excessive amount of space on the barrel hood.

You know, I don't think I measured this one. I recall one of them had 0.020" clearance at the hood left-right and 0.008" clearance fore-aft but I think that was my earlier M&P9. I guess I had high hopes for the newer gun, since it was rumored S&W was addressing problems. When I got the new one and it was just as awful and the older one, I think it just went into the safe to be ignored until my anger subsided.

If it says 9mm on it, I generally have bad luck with almost any pistol. The 3913 seems to be the only one that has not been uniformly disappointing. In defense of the M&P, I will have to admit my M&P45 has been a good shooter - but it is a bit ammunition-finicky.

Ofc.JL · #**121** 05-19-2014, 10:54 AM

Thanx. I knew earlier M&P's suffered from that. Ship your new one back w/ a detailed letter. S&W will make it right.

brocktice · #**122** 05-19-2014, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ofc.JL

Hmm. M29, it Sounds like a barrel and/or a barrel fit problem. Of course I am just guessing, too. I do think that the M&P series of handguns is prone to having bad accuracy issues w/ poor barrel fit.

I don't have any feelers or I'd measure, but there is a noticeable amount of play between the barrel and slide on my 9 FS that is not there on my 9c.

I'm going to guess that's the culprit. We'll see what S&W says. If they send it back and it's still too loose/inaccurate (y'all have VERY strict cuss filters on here, replaced a different word I don't consider a swear that rhymes with "wrap"), maybe I'll have an oversized barrel professionally fitted by a third party.