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  #51  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu Honea View Post
It's certainly true that all caliber pistols have killed people many times over,and that's not even debatable.
However,the intent of the legally armed carrier should be to end a potentially deadly confrontation immediately by causing the "bad guy" to cease his hostile and aggressive actions.
Service calibers accomplish this best. Many years ago Jeff Cooper stated,and I quote:"Placement takes precedence over power." This statement might easily be misinterpreted to mean that small calibers are just as good as large calibers if your placement is perfect. That could even be true in some instances, but in all my years I have never seen anyone who could get perfect placement of their shots under an adrenaline filled moment every time. It just doesn't happen that way.

This is where the service caliber sidearm improves the odds for good guys.With modern performing,well designed bullets,the edge is definetely there. There are many of these loads available that perform with excellance from short barrelled handguns,giving on target results that are hardly descernable from the same load fired from a service size handgun. That is an advantage. You can up your odds of winning also by learning to hit fast without the use of sights
within 7 to 10 yards.
Having the skill to do this is well within the abilities of anyone with normal mobility,but one needs to train in this aspect of shooting in order to be proficiant at it.
Once again,the service calibers are best used for serious defense. It's been shown time and again in the last 15 years or so that with modern well designed ammunition the 9mm,.40S&W,and 45 ACP all achieve about the same result with well placed hits. This cannot be said for the smaller calibers.You're most likely to get not enough penetration with the small hollowpoints or not enough expansion to destroy enough tissue or vital organs fast enough to shut that individual down as rapidly as needed.
If you need to shoot someone,you need to stop him(or her)NOW. I prefer 9mm as I have seen first hand the results of shootings with several types of modern ammo,it carries more boolits,and is cheaper and easier to train with. I love the .45 too,it makes nice large holes,but I prefer more rounds on board.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.The human body is at once both fragile AND resilient,and handguns are all puny.period. Why not stack the odds in your favor?
And,anyone worth shooting is worth firing a burst into. They make the choice themselves.
Some here need to re-read this.
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  #52  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:19 PM
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I get a kick out the people who don't think a BG380 is capable of killing a bad person, it will do the job just fine.
I have a BG380, and I carry a BG380 sometimes, but this report is from a study done by the FBI when they were choosing which weapons they would depend on to save their lives and it clearly states the .380 IS NOT a caliber that can be reliably depended on.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

So while you may have a .380, and you may like your .380, and you wouldn't want to be shot by a .380, the fact is the .380 is not very dependable as a man stopper. Period.

BTW, the report then goes on to say the 9mm, .40, .45 are all similar and effective, but none are as effective as a rifle.
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  #53  
Old 04-20-2012, 07:05 PM
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One more country heard from.... I checked out several comparisons because I'm still looking for a 9mm that I'd feel comfortable CC'ing without a major wardrobe change . And they are all in the same price range. There are some overpriced options but....

I checked specs on the Glock 26, Kel Tecs PF-11 & PF-9, Taurus Slim, and the Rugers LC9 & SR9c. Here's my findings.

The M&P Shield, Glock 26, and Ruger SR9c are withing fractions of each other in size and weight, except width (Glock and Ruger are double stack). They also share the same striker fired system giving them a light, smooth trigger.

The Kel Tecs, Taurus, and Ruger LC9 are also withing fractions in size but are several oz lighter. The PF-11 is a double stack so it's a bit wider.

Oh, and I've owned them all and still own most of them. They have all been VERY reliable shooters. And I'm still CC'ing my Bodyguard and Kel Tec P32 as my pocket gun, both plenty lethal with the right ammo. In colder weather I carry the LC9 because it and BG have very similar grip and shooting characteristics. You need your CCWs to be a near the same as possible.
The PF-11 was my first carry gun, mainly because of budget reasons. While it performed flawlessly, and therefore a very good gun, IMHO, the trigger pull, veeeerrrryyy long reset and harsh recoil were the nail in the coffin for me. I started CC'ing the 9c, but as a plumber, it would not only print, but show all the time. I carried the Shield all day today IWB in a Minotaur holster with no problems. The holster has retention and the trigger guard is covered, so safe enough for me. Of course, once Raven Concealment Systems comes out with either a phantom or appendix holster, I'll be ordering one.
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  #54  
Old 04-20-2012, 07:14 PM
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Some here need to re-read this.
Some of us have real experience, training and have been in the trenches and dont need keyboard cowboys to educate us. Ive been doing my bit for king and country over 22 years, there aint no magical bullet.
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  #55  
Old 04-20-2012, 07:36 PM
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Some of us have real experience, training and have been in the trenches and dont need keyboard cowboys to educate us. Ive been doing my bit for king and country over 22 years, there aint no magical bullet.
Been there too myself... just not as long of a stretch. Thank you!

That said, I have some very bad habits that were learned because of my time serving.

The civilian market, both equipment and training wise, will always be far superior in current times compared to what any bureaucratic committee deems to be the best for government workers. Military or LEO.

At least AFA handgun fundamentals, what I was thought, was not the most efficient nor the most effective way. I have been taking steps to correct this problem.

Last edited by OpenSights; 04-20-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  #56  
Old 04-21-2012, 07:44 AM
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There should be more reliance on tactics and awareness, caliber is not the only answer. If caliber was all that mattered you need to get rid of the 9 and get a 40/45. Or sell some guns and move to a safer neighborhood.
You are on the right track Maddtrapper. I get a kick out of reading theses posts. Lets just say i work for a company that trains LEOs (local to federal) and some military. Our mission is to increase the efficiency (success) rate during actual engagement. We teach both from mental and physical perspectives. LEOs hit 3% of their target at 15 yards, 8% at 7yards, and 13% at 3 yards under stressful conditions. The military is surprisingly only slightly higher ( different type of training). In most civilian encounters you won't have time to draw your weapon...if you're lucky you might be able to throw it at the subject. Our weak minds just don't think that fast. So other means need to be utilized to defend yourself.

I read these posts and get the impression that a few may have police training but most are gun lovers and range hounds who have no idea (but think they do) what it's like to defend your life or the life of others. You talk about calibers and stopping power....really? Until you have real life experience in a combat (civilian or military) situation and are actually trained to deal with these types of situations, please don't comment because your opinions don't matter. It's all 'I read an article and go to the range so I'm now an expert'...really??? are you kidding me? Please don't pretend to know how to handle yourself in a real situation because I can guarantee that 99% of you will fail...I don't care how much range training you have. You just don't understand (and never will) the state of mind of an offender and how they will predominately have the upper hand, especially in a home invasion situation. Your range time won't matter. I can count on one hand the people I would trust to be by my side during an actual encounter and none of them are LEOs...but i deal with people with unusual skill sets. Most people I have dealt with in my career and 49 years of life can't handle (mentally or physically) a real life encounter successfully.

Enough said....enjoy your fantasy posts. And please don't respond to this post unless you are qualified to do so. On second thought, please do. My colleagues and I need a laugh now and then.
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2012, 08:11 AM
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Someone has the opinion that a 380 isn't enough fire power to trust your life with and some might think that's snobbery. Others talk about shot placement being the key and being more curcial than caliber.

That's the funny and true thing about life. Everybody has free will and at the same time everybody has different abilities. Toes seem to get stepped on easily and nobody is satisfied until they feel they've done their best to cast their belief upon everyone else. Someone is always going to disagree with someone else.

Everybody knows people like this in their own family and probably hundreds more that post on the internet. Sometimes it's best to let a person have their belief, it works for them, and just move on.
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  #58  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by IllinoisCCW View Post
You are on the right track Maddtrapper. I get a kick out of reading theses posts. Lets just say i work for a company that trains LEOs (local to federal) and some military. Our mission is to increase the efficiency (success) rate during actual engagement. We teach both from mental and physical perspectives. LEOs hit 3% of their target at 15 yards, 8% at 7yards, and 13% at 3 yards under stressful conditions. The military is surprisingly only slightly higher ( different type of training). In most civilian encounters you won't have time to draw your weapon...if you're lucky you might be able to throw it at the subject. Our weak minds just don't think that fast. So other means need to be utilized to defend yourself.

I read these posts and get the impression that a few may have police training but most are gun lovers and range hounds who have no idea (but think they do) what it's like to defend your life or the life of others. You talk about calibers and stopping power....really? Until you have real life experience in a combat (civilian or military) situation and are actually trained to deal with these types of situations, please don't comment because your opinions don't matter. It's all 'I read an article and go to the range so I'm now an expert'...really??? are you kidding me? Please don't pretend to know how to handle yourself in a real situation because I can guarantee that 99% of you will fail...I don't care how much range training you have. You just don't understand (and never will) the state of mind of an offender and how they will predominately have the upper hand, especially in a home invasion situation. Your range time won't matter. I can count on one hand the people I would trust to be by my side during an actual encounter and none of them are LEOs...but i deal with people with unusual skill sets. Most people I have dealt with in my career and 49 years of life can't handle (mentally or physically) a real life encounter successfully.

Enough said....enjoy your fantasy posts. And please don't respond to this post unless you are qualified to do so. On second thought, please do. My colleagues and I need a laugh now and then.
I completely agree with what you quoted and said. I have a question. What caliber do you use daily for CCW?
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:09 AM
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😄. The million dollar question and is the question I get asked the most. First, I'm an Illinois resident and can't carry when in Illinois. I am licensed in every other state. When I do carry I personally prefer the 9mm...right now, I train on only two...M&P 9c and the FNX 9. I just received the Shield and will start my training regiment and it will be in my rotation soon. I don't recommend more than two within a rotation but I spend 15 to 20 hours a week training (my personal training) I'm more comfortable , more accurate with the 9. I instruct people to use the caliber they are most comfortable with regarding action, ability to handle, control....then train, train, train. And just don't shoot at targets...create situational objectives..stance...positioning...lighting...stress control...breathing...draw...and on and on. I can talk hours on this topic...and i do

If your carry weapon cannot be thought of as part of your body than you are not ready. (My only issue with handing out ccw permits) I can present my weapon no differently than scratching an itch...i do without a lot of thought...its just instinctive...it's apart of me. I tell people to be, not just proficient, but expert with a weapon and be able to use it effectively and safely is a combination of mind and body...that's what we train to.

You can argue about what is the best caliber...an argument than will have no winner. I work with an individual that can eliminate a threat with a .22 faster than I can blink. Try having the caliber argument with him...I promise you will lose.

Not sure I answered your question. 😊
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:12 AM
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What is the criteria and who desides who the "EXPERTS" are?
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:19 AM
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What is the criteria and who desides who the "EXPERTS" are?
Depends on what type of experts you are referring to. If you are talking about tactical, both offense and defensive, use of firearms...find out who the LEOs and Military seek out. 9 out of 10 times it will be civilian contractors.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:40 AM
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Depends on what type of experts you are referring to. If you are talking about tactical, both offense and defensive, use of firearms...find out who the LEOs and Military seek out. 9 out of 10 times it will be civilian contractors.


Yup!
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:43 AM
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��. The million dollar question and is the question I get asked the most. First, I'm an Illinois resident and can't carry when in Illinois. I am licensed in every other state. When I do carry I personally prefer the 9mm...right now, I train on only two...M&P 9c and the FNX 9. I just received the Shield and will start my training regiment and it will be in my rotation soon. I don't recommend more than two within a rotation but I spend 15 to 20 hours a week training (my personal training) I'm more comfortable , more accurate with the 9. I instruct people to use the caliber they are most comfortable with regarding action, ability to handle, control....then train, train, train. And just don't shoot at targets...create situational objectives..stance...positioning...lighting...stress control...breathing...draw...and on and on. I can talk hours on this topic...and i do

If your carry weapon cannot be thought of as part of your body than you are not ready. (My only issue with handing out ccw permits) I can present my weapon no differently than scratching an itch...i do without a lot of thought...its just instinctive...it's apart of me. I tell people to be, not just proficient, but expert with a weapon and be able to use it effectively and safely is a combination of mind and body...that's what we train to.

You can argue about what is the best caliber...an argument than will have no winner. I work with an individual that can eliminate a threat with a .22 faster than I can blink. Try having the caliber argument with him...I promise you will lose.

Not sure I answered your question. ��
Yes .. you did answer my question. Oh, I also have a PMR30 that I love! I have had guys argue that it isn't deadly .. lol

What concerns me as so many I know who have CPLs (concealed pistol Licenses) never practice draw from their holsters (most pull their gun out of a box) they just stand at the target and punch holes as tight of a group as possible. IMO, that's OK if you are practicing hand gun fundamentals stroking the trigger etc. But in a real life situation .. you better know how to quickly draw and point shoot effectively. That takes a lot of practice which very few people do.

Last edited by kris7047th; 04-21-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:56 AM
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Depends on what type of experts you are referring to. If you are talking about tactical, both offense and defensive, use of firearms...find out who the LEOs and Military seek out. 9 out of 10 times it will be civilian contractors.
Agree 100%!

MDFI is great up here in MI. Steve and crew are great trainers!
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:57 AM
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Yes .. you did answer my question. Oh, I also have a PMR30 that I love! I have had guys argue that it isn't deadly .. lol
I saw that. I really shouldn't be commenting but you read my other posts. Just be careful who you take advise from.
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:00 AM
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Agree 100%!

MDFI is great up here in MI. Steve and crew are great trainers!
I've heard of them. Great reputation.
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:02 AM
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I've heard of them. Great reputation.
I know them too. Steve is a friend and has taught me much .. and I have a loonng ways to go. In fact it was Steve who called me up leaving Schupbacks that they had a PMR in stock .

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Old 04-21-2012, 11:05 AM
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Yes .. you did answer my question. Oh, I also have a PMR30 that I love! I have had guys argue that it isn't deadly .. lol

What concerns me as so many I know who have CPLs (concealed pistol Licenses) never practice draw from their holsters (most pull their gun out of a box) they just stand at the target and punch holes as tight of a group as possible. IMO, that's OK if you are practicing hand gun fundamentals stroking the trigger etc. But in a real life situation .. you better know how to quickly draw and point shoot effectively. That takes a lot of practice which very few people do.
There has been training sessions where tactical units come in and want to show off their shooting skills. Most of them are awesome shots at stationary targets. You put them through situational scenarios under STRESSFUL conditions and the story changes. There has been times when officers left after the training questioning their ability to handle situations under stress.

Yes you are correct...it's not about shooting at targets.
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:32 AM
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I've heard of them. Great reputation.
Worth the trip from any neighboring State for any class, I might add; The "gun community" here in MI are generally good people. If you're interested in a class, there are many people here who would give you a bed for the night or two. Just throwing that out there.

The next class I'm going to take is the YSINTG class. "You suck it's not the gun" Personally, I need that class. I've been working on the fundamentals, the way they teach it. But the class is still needed. The FFL I bought my Shield from, a trainer at MDFI, invited me to the YSINTG class tomorrow, but the funds aren't really there.
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:44 AM
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Worth the trip from any neighboring State for any class, I might add; The "gun community" here in MI are generally good people. If you're interested in a class, there are many people here who would give you a bed for the night or two. Just throwing that out there.

The next class I'm going to take is the YSINTG class. "You suck it's not the gun" Personally, I need that class. I've been working on the fundamentals, the way they teach it. But the class is still needed. The FFL I bought my Shield from, a trainer at MDFI, invited me to the YSINTG class tomorrow, but the funds aren't really there.
I hear you. I have family in MI. With my extensive travels, sometimes taking me out of the country, I haven't been up to visit in years.

Its great you are taking classes. You can't just possess and be expert. I say expert because when it comes to the potential of saving your life of lives others you better damn well be an expert. Some say I'm extreme but I expect that of our LEOs. Ask yourself, would you want your local LEO protecting you? Can you be certain they have the RIGHT mental and physical training? I will tell you this, I have friends that spend more time and money obtaining the appropriate training than most LEOs I've dealt with. That's unsettling to me.
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:03 PM
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I hear you. I have family in MI. With my extensive travels, sometimes taking me out of the country, I haven't been up to visit in years.

Its great you are taking classes. You can't just possess and be expert. I say expert because when it comes to the potential of saving your life of lives others you better damn well be an expert. Some say I'm extreme but I expect that of our LEOs. Ask yourself, would you want your local LEO protecting you? Can you be certain they have the RIGHT mental and physical training? I will tell you this, I have friends that spend more time and money obtaining the appropriate training than most LEOs I've dealt with. That's unsettling to me.
We're on the same wave. My military training is my downfall as far as getting the job done and protecting my family. Re-learning to fight with a knife and hand gun is a whole ball of confusion for me.

Things in MI are getting worse by the day. LEO's are getting cut from the budget non stop.

Pisses me off, my daycare for my 3.5 YO, the daycare lady can't have a gun in the house, due to state law. When I drop him off or pick him up, legally I cannot carry. But some meth head can come in and start blasting the kids away and all they can do is call 911.

One of my SNCOIC's once said "Common sense is an uncommon virtue".
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:10 PM
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We're on the same wave. My military training is my downfall as far as getting the job done and protecting my family. Re-learning to fight with a knife and hand gun is a whole ball of confusion for me.

Things in MI are getting worse by the day. LEO's are getting cut from the budget non stop.

Pisses me off, my daycare for my 3.5 YO, the daycare lady can't have a gun in the house, due to state law. When I drop him off or pick him up, legally I cannot carry. But some meth head can come in and start blasting the kids away and all they can do is call 911.

One of my SNCOIC's once said "Common sense is an uncommon virtue".
Yep. As they say, gun laws don't affect the criminals, they hinder the law abiding citizens. Good luck!

Last edited by IllinoisCCW; 04-21-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:35 PM
Sodbuster46 Sodbuster46 is offline
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My everyday carry is the M&P40c; had a BG380 and sold it, this might just fit that niche the BG380 left open; want to get my hands on one (M&P40 Shield) but like I've been reading they won't be out until the end of the month; must be patient!
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:23 PM
lrichardson32 lrichardson32 is offline
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Default it doesnt look lefty friendly

Im interested in the shield but havent been to my LGS to check it out yet. I m lefty and read that the mag release isnt ambi or switchable like the glock 26 gen 4. Im not comparing because I like the shields price alot better. Any suggestion on lefty friendly ccw in 9mm.
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:38 PM
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Wouldn't surprise me that in time that S&W will come out with left versions in both calibers. I would call S&W CS and ask.
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodbuster46 View Post
My everyday carry is the M&P40c; had a BG380 and sold it, this might just fit that niche the BG380 left open; want to get my hands on one (M&P40 Shield) but like I've been reading they won't be out until the end of the month; must be patient!
Not one gun or one caliber is right for everyone. For me the .40 is a bit too snappy, and IMHO, the 45acp is less than. But I do know a good number of people who swear by it. I'd still really like to shoot a Shield in .40!
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllinoisCCW View Post
Yep. As they say, gun laws don't affect the criminals, they hinder the law abiding citizens. Good luck!
When did Illinois get CCW? Or are you just opining?
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:40 PM
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When did Illinois get CCW? Or are you just opining?
No CCW in Illinois...yet. Getting close though. Been hoping for many years.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:46 PM
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OK, I didn't think so, so I googled after I post and found an article about a possible loop hole in the law published in a Chicago paper. Then noticed the date of the article was from 2000.....
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:55 PM
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OK, I didn't think so, so I googled after I post and found an article about a possible loop hole in the law published in a Chicago paper. Then noticed the date of the article was from 2000.....
Yeah. Pike county in Illinois passed an ordinance allowing conceal carry but it can't supersede state law. If other counties follow suit it will definitely help. It's a start.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrichardson32 View Post
Im interested in the shield but havent been to my LGS to check it out yet. I m lefty and read that the mag release isnt ambi or switchable like the glock 26 gen 4. Im not comparing because I like the shields price alot better. Any suggestion on lefty friendly ccw in 9mm.
M&P9c is what I carry. The mag release takes about 2-3 minutes to reverse. Of course I have the model without the external safety.

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  #82  
Old 10-18-2015, 12:44 AM
killerasteroid killerasteroid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kris7047th View Post
As a woman, I will bet that your daughters and wife will tire much faster with the BG than they will with the Shield.
That's because the shield is so big compared to the BG380 that the shield sits on the shelf at home and is never used, thus one never tires of shooting it.....
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