Officer Saves from Mag Disconnects? Examples Please

[HayesGreener]

Over the past 45 years I have heard of a number of occasions where officers have won the fight during a struggle for their gun when they were able to hit the magazine release thus rendering the gun inert. I first heard of this from an Illinois State Trooper in the late 60's. Unfortunately I did not obtain the particular details at the time. I am looking for factual accounts of such incidents, as well as factual accounts of officers being injured or killed because they did have a magazine disconnect (I have never heard of one myself). If anyone has any factual accounts either way I would like cites as I will incorporate into my training classes. I am not interested in mall ninja internet tactical ranger expert opinions or surmise, they are available by the thousands, just factual and verifiable accounts please.

Thanks for your assistance.

[-db-]

Massad Ayoob has documented accounts of mag safety life-saves in his book The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense.

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by HayesGreener

...I am not interested in mall ninja internet tactical ranger expert opinions or surmise, they are available by the thousands, just factual and verifiable accounts please.

Well you certainly have taken all the fun out of it!

Seriously, I will be interested in what turns up here, though I have no documentable incidents that I can share with you. The best intelligence I have ever heard/seen from the record-keeping types is that the incidents run heavily in favor of saves, but given your admonition, I will say no more other than good luck with your quest.

[FiremedicMike]

I've never had strong feelings one way or the other on this issue. My current weapon has the mag disconnect, but to be honest I don't train that way (my own fault) and so it's unlikely that I'm going to think to do that in an adrenaline dump.

My philosophy is that the bad guy has two choices to grab off my belt, my k-bar or my handgun. I am mentally and physically prepared to stop his aggressive actions with whichever weapon he chooses not to grab at.

[robkarrob]

I am retired LEO, and my experience is no officer would want a magazine disconnect safety. First the idea that during a fight for the officer's gun, he would be able to somehow be able to press the mag button, to drop the mag, so the gun would not fire, is unlikely. He is fighting for his life. He will do all he can to retain possession of the gun, as he knows he will "die" if he loses the gun. How is he going to push that small mag release button? It is hard enough when you are holding it in a normal grip position, not fighting with all your strength to keep the gun. Could the officer release the mag, sure it is possible, but he also could regain control of the gun, after releasing the mag, and now his gun will not fire.

Second is many officers have pulled their guns, and had the mag partially drop without knowing it, not completely drop out, but enough that if the gun had a mag safety, they could not fire the gun. How many officers would want to carry a gun, and worry if the gun is going to fire? This is the same thought as people that don't like a manual safety. They carry with the safety off, but worry it could get accidentally bumped on, without their knowledge. With either scenario, a pull of the trigger and the gun would not fire. Without the magazine safety, if the magazine partially dropped, at least the officer could fire one shot, the round in the chamber.

There may have been, and are still some Departments that think a magazine safety could save an officer's life. But over time the issue of the gun not firing when needed is much more common than a struggle for the gun. I have seen numerous occasions, during training or qualification, when an officers mag partially dropped. After "fire" is announced, they look pretty stupid when they point and pull the trigger and only get off one shot, as the mag partially dropped out. In a life or death situation, I prefer one shot to no shot.

I have read some of those stories, on how an officer was saved by dropping the mag. I say stories as I do think that is what they are, stories not fact. Has a mag safety ever saved an officer's life? I would bet the answer is yes, with all the thousands of incidents over a struggle for the gun. But again for every one life saved this way, how many other situations have happened because the gun would not fire when needed?

As far as gun safety, who is leaving a gun lay around with no magazine, but they forgot that a round was still loaded in the chamber? The gun should be secured and fully unloaded. If proper gun safety rules are followed, a mag safety is not needed. Only a few states require a magazine safety before a new pistol can be sold in that state.


Bob

[4011]

Been nine years since the auto pistol training, but wasn't it first ftf to bump the mag with the weak hand if that didn't fix it rack the slide? That was when their was no stove pipe are the slide was not back as in empty!

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by robkarrob

I am retired LEO, and my experience is no officer would want a magazine disconnect safety. First the idea that during a fight for the officer's gun, he would be able to somehow be able to press the mag button, to drop the mag, so the gun would not fire, is unlikely. He is fighting for his life. He will do all he can to retain possession of the gun, as he knows he will "die" if he loses the gun. How is he going to push that small mag release button? It is hard enough when you are holding it in a normal grip position, not fighting with all your strength to keep the gun. Could the officer release the mag, sure it is possible, but he also could regain control of the gun, after releasing the mag, and now his gun will not fire.

Second is many officers have pulled their guns, and had the mag partially drop without knowing it, not completely drop out, but enough that if the gun had a mag safety, they could not fire the gun. How many officers would want to carry a gun, and worry if the gun is going to fire? This is the same thought as people that don't like a manual safety. They carry with the safety off, but worry it could get accidentally bumped on, without their knowledge. With either scenario, a pull of the trigger and the gun would not fire. Without the magazine safety, if the magazine partially dropped, at least the officer could fire one shot, the round in the chamber.

There may have been, and are still some Departments that think a magazine safety could save an officer's life. But over time the issue of the gun not firing when needed is much more common than a struggle for the gun. I have seen numerous occasions, during training or qualification, when an officers mag partially dropped. After "fire" is announced, they look pretty stupid when they point and pull the trigger and only get off one shot, as the mag partially dropped out. In a life or death situation, I prefer one shot to no shot.

I have read some of those stories, on how an officer was saved by dropping the mag. I say stories as I do think that is what they are, stories not fact. Has a mag safety ever saved an officer's life? I would bet the answer is yes, with all the thousands of incidents over a struggle for the gun. But again for every one life saved this way, how many other situations have happened because the gun would not fire when needed?

As far as gun safety, who is leaving a gun lay around with no magazine, but they forgot that a round was still loaded in the chamber? The gun should be secured and fully unloaded. If proper gun safety rules are followed, a mag safety is not needed.


Bob

I know two guys who are here today because of the mag safety, and I recall at least dash-cam video of a cop losing his weapon in a struggle and hitting the mag release, and the perp pulling the trigger on an inactive gun. These are not "stories". Massad Ayoob documented some in his book. The "mag release can get you killed" mentality is mall ninja nonsense, period. People who believe they're going to get into a shootout and have the presence of mind to do a "tactical reload" in the middle of it. And let's suppose in the 2 seconds that they are doing a tactical reload that the need arises to fire the weapon. Now they have ONE shot, which in all probability won't even hit the target since police have a hit ratio of about 20% nationwide, and even if that one shot hits, in all likelihood, the perp isn't down since handgun rounds aren't the best manstopper unless you hit heart or spine, but now the gun is empty, but the slide is NOT locked back, so it's gonna take you 2 hands to get the gun working again.


Dropping the mag when somebody is attempting to get your gun is about the most natural thing you can do. If you're already holding the gun, you move your thumb up 2 inches and the mag is out. In a holster grab, the first thing you do when somebody is trying to get the gun is to grab it yourself to try to prevent it.

[robkarrob]

Natural if you are holding the gun in a normal position. Natural if your not fighting for your life. Natural if your body is not reacting to the adrenaline rush. And when someone grabs and pulls at your gun, especially from a direction you did not see coming (another person), then your hand may not be in that natural position you are referring about. Remember your finger is not on the trigger, unless it was a shooting situation, so the grip pressure is not as strong for holding the gun. Finger on the trigger or within the trigger guard provides more holding pressure.

There are those that believe a mag safety is a benefit. The stories become fact and it still does not address the fact. If the magazine gets partially dropped, without the user's knowledge, is one shot or no shot the better option?

Bob

[Edmo]

I will not have a disconnect safety on any of my carry guns, and if you didn't notice I'm wearing both my "Mall Ninja" ball cap and "Internet Ranger" T-shirt...

Sarcastically, I'll propose if it makes you "more safe" to drop the mag during a struggle why not carry with an empty chamber? Or, keep the magazine and gun separate and only reveal the magazine once you are in complete control of the firearm? Even better, leave the gun at home and you reduce the risk of being shot with your weapon to 0%.

As a CCW civilian always have a spare magazine, especially if you have a disconnect safety. Scenario Update: You avoided the struggle and while sprinting for cover you accidentally bump the mag release dropping your only magazine. If you need to engage you will find your gun is now basically a rock and the single chambered round is unusable.

One Ninja/Ranger's thoughts...

Edmo

[Ofc.JL]

Both sides have good arguments. Magazine safeties have saved lives, just as no safety have as well, I'm sure. Hard decision to be made. And the key to successful implementation thru the Ranks is training, as with all else.
I carry a M&P FS.40 daily, and have done so for the last 4 years. The pistol has always worked, I can hit w/ it, and it has never failed to work. It does have a magazine disconnect safety. It was there when I got it, and I have never removed it. I do keep the idea of being able to "safe" my weapon in mind, should the need arise. Of course, it could depend on the scenario, if it was even do-able at the time. So, six of one, half dozen of the other. Each to his own, I say.
Just my .02$
Ofc.JL

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by robkarrob

Natural if you are holding the gun in a normal position. Natural if your not fighting for your life. Natural if your body is not reacting to the adrenaline rush. And when someone grabs and pulls at your gun, especially from a direction you did not see coming (another person), then your hand may not be in that natural position you are referring about. Remember your finger is not on the trigger, unless it was a shooting situation, so the grip pressure is not as strong for holding the gun. Finger on the trigger or within the trigger guard provides more holding pressure.

There are those that believe a mag safety is a benefit. The stories become fact and it still does not address the fact. If the magazine gets partially dropped, without the user's knowledge, is one shot or no shot the better option?

Bob

So you're saying that in an adrenaline mode, a shooter can't move his thumb to hit the mag release? If he can't do that how can he operate the weapon to begin with? And in 10 years of getting in and out of police cars with a semi auto, the mag never was released on my gun or anybody else's I am aware of.

And let's talk about the accidental shootings that kill or injure many every year. The ones that would have been prevented by a mag disconnect. I know you're going to say "know your weapon" but that fact is that the majority of gun owners shoot about 100 rounds a year. How many lives have been saved?

Somebody show me ONE time a mag disconnect got somebody hurt or killed. I'll show you a dozen where it was a benefit

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Edmo

I will not have a disconnect safety on any of my carry guns, and if you didn't notice I'm wearing both my "Mall Ninja" ball cap and "Internet Ranger" T-shirt...

Sarcastically, I'll propose if it makes you "more safe" to drop the mag during a struggle why not carry with an empty chamber? Or, keep the magazine and gun separate and only reveal the magazine once you are in complete control of the firearm? Even better, leave the gun at home and you reduce the risk of being shot with your weapon to 0%.

As a CCW civilian always have a spare magazine, especially if you have a disconnect safety. Scenario Update: You avoided the struggle and while sprinting for cover you accidentally bump the mag release dropping your only magazine. If you need to engage you will find your gun is now basically a rock and the single chambered round is unusable.

One Ninja/Ranger's thoughts...

Edmo

Bad comparison. Carrying with an empty chamber requires 2 hands to operate the weapon if the need arises. The weapon is still hot with a mag disconnect.

And anybody who imagines getting into a gunfight where they have to sprint for safety while reloading is living in fantasyland, not to mention in that highly unlikely scenario you hit the mag release to begin with! Better odds of hitting the lottery! Sure you're not wearing that mall ninja t-shirt?

[Coaltminer]

Whatever, it makes sense to me. Young boy killed by his uncle recently in PA, Glock "unloaded" except for the chambered round. Should make no difference, as in, muzzle pointed in a safe direction, but OMG, rules of gun safety. Have 2 auto pistols, one with mag safety, one without, actually prefer one with, I know I'm in the minority.

[FiremedicMike]

I'm really surprised that this has turned into such a heated discussion.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Coaltminer

Whatever, it makes sense to me. Young boy killed by his uncle recently in PA, Glock "unloaded" except for the chambered round. Should make no difference, as in, muzzle pointed in a safe direction, but OMG, rules of gun safety. Have 2 auto pistols, one with mag safety, one without, actually prefer one with, I know I'm in the minority.

Minority in a gun forum MAYBE, but members if a gun forum account for a small percentage of gun owners, and I would bet the guy who buys a gun to keep in the house for home defense wouldn't mind one. Only problem is most of those people walk into a gunship and say "Give me a Glock. The cops carry them, right?" They have no idea it's even an option.

[surferdaddy]

I have one on my 40c. I always remove the mag before holstering and reinsert it after it is safely holstered. Not sure if indeed the trigger were inadvertently depressed when holstering and if it were still being pressed upon when I reinserted the mag; if the weapon would then fire? I may need to conduct a VERY unloaded experiment. Anyhow, always seemed to me to be a good use of a mag safety to prevent a negligent discharge.

[kbm6893]

There is a way around the 3rd gen mag disconnects. If you begin to press the trigger and then remove the mag it will still fire

[gboling]

Originally Posted by HayesGreener

Over the past 45 years I have heard of a number of occasions where officers have won the fight during a struggle for their gun when they were able to hit the magazine release thus rendering the gun inert. I first heard of this from an Illinois State Trooper in the late 60's. Unfortunately I did not obtain the particular details at the time. I am looking for factual accounts of such incidents, as well as factual accounts of officers being injured or killed because they did have a magazine disconnect (I have never heard of one myself). If anyone has any factual accounts either way I would like cites as I will incorporate into my training classes. I am not interested in mall ninja internet tactical ranger expert opinions or surmise, they are available by the thousands, just factual and verifiable accounts please.

Thanks for your assistance.

Are you sorry you asked yet?

[HayesGreener]

Originally Posted by gboling

Are you sorry you asked yet?

I didn't intend to kick over an anthill but looks like I did. I also may be on the Mall Ninja Internet Tactical Ranger Expert hit list, which I can live with. I am still waiting for somebody to say they heard a Navy SEAL say they were or were not in favor of magazine disconnects-that will be the final word on the subject I am sure. I am somewhat amused but so far have only received a cite to Ayoob's book and one retired officer who knows a couple of guys who are walking around today because they had magazine disconnects. But I am not giving up hope-research is like that. Thanks for asking.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by HayesGreener

I didn't intend to kick over an anthill but looks like I did. I also may be on the Mall Ninja Internet Tactical Ranger Expert hit list, which I can live with. I am still waiting for somebody to say they heard a Navy SEAL say they were or were not in favor of magazine disconnects-that will be the final word on the subject I am sure. I am somewhat amused but so far have only received a cite to Ayoob's book and one retired officer who knows a couple of guys who are walking around today because they had magazine disconnects. But I am not giving up hope-research is like that. Thanks for asking.

The only way to get the info you seem is by getting access to official police shooting reports which you're not gonna get. Newspaper articles generally screw up gun stories so all they might say is be suspect was unable to fire the officers weapon. But if you google accidental shooting you will find many more. I can recall 2 in the last couple of months alone where the mag was out and the round was fired. They were even talked about on this forum. I remember dr the dash cam video where they perp got the cops gun and pointed it at him clicking away and getting nothing cause the cop dumped the mag. When backup arrived and they chased the perp the cop can be heard yelling "he's got my gun but I dropped the mag!" We watched it in the police academy. Might be on YouTube.

[Muss Muggins]

I would suspect there about an equal number of instances where the attacked officer was able to fire his weapon after the magazine became inadvertently dislodged, thus ending the struggling . . .

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I would suspect there about an equal number of instances where the attacked officer was able to fire his weapon after the magazine became inadvertently dislodged, thus ending the struggling . . .

I doubt it. I worked a ghetto my whole career. Rolled with many dozens of perps. Never had my mag accidentally drop out and nobody I ever worked with did either. The mag release is on the inside of the gun toward the officers body so it's protected from outside forces. Then again the Glock mag release is not reversable so a lefty might have more of a chance

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

I doubt it. I worked a ghetto my whole career. Rolled with many dozens of perps. Never had my mag accidentally drop out and nobody I ever worked with did either.

Not sure that's on point, since you were neither saved nor injured by a magazine staying in or dropping out . . .

[FiremedicMike]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Not sure that's on point, since you were neither saved nor injured by a magazine staying in or dropping out . . .

I think he was more addressing the issue of mags dropping out. I didn't want to take anything from the other poster, because my LE experience is still low, but I've not ever seen nor experienced a mag dropping out during a draw..

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Not sure that's on point, since you were neither saved nor injured by a magazine staying in or dropping out . . .

It's totally on point because you mentioned officers being saved by being able to fire that one shot when they're mag was out. 95% of cops never fire their weapons and you wanna take that 5% and add in the extremely high odds of the mag not being in the gun? I never saw a cop lose their mag. Ever. And I read every firearms discharge report when I was on the job and at least up until I left there was no report of a dropped mag making the weapon a one shot weapon. There were several accidental shootings due to a magazine removed and the chamber not cleared. Primarily with the Glock since you have to pull the trigger to field strip. Y

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

It's totally on point because you mentioned officers being saved by being able to fire that one shot when they're mag was out. 95% of cops never fire their weapons and you wanna take that 5% and add in the extremely high odds of the mag not being in the gun? I never saw a cop lose their mag. Ever. And I read every firearms discharge report when I was on the job and at least up until I left there was no report of a dropped mag making the weapon a one shot weapon. There were several accidental shootings due to a magazine removed and the chamber not cleared. Primarily with the Glock since you have to pull the trigger to field strip. Y

The shootings you describe were negligent, not accidental. As for your observations about losing magazines, you weren't in the right fights. The stories are out there. I still maintain that as many people were saved by being able to fire their weapons as were saved by the bad guy not being able to fire their weapons.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

The shootings you describe were negligent, not accidental. As for your observations about losing magazines, you weren't in the right fights. The stories are out there. I still maintain that as many people were saved by being able to fire their weapons as were saved by the bad guy not being able to fire their weapons.

Show me one. Cause I'm calling BS. The likelihood of being in a shooting is extremely low. Add in the equally low probability of a mag dropping out during that shooting and the odds are astronomical. Sure it COULD happen but the odds are so high it's not even worth considering. Now the odds are MUCH better (and actually documented and not stories) of the mag disconnect being a benefit

As for the negligent vs accident, that's a tired old cliche. There was a thread on here about negligent discharges. A startingly high number of members here have had them, and I would wager we had more trigger time then the average gun owner since we are members of a gun forum. People aren't perfect. Mistakes do happen. And a mag disconnect can lessen them

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

Show me one. Cause I'm calling BS. The likelihood of being in a shooting is extremely low. Add in the equally low probability of a mag dropping out during that shooting and the odds are astronomical. Sure it COULD happen but the odds are so high it's not even worth considering. Now the odds are MUCH better (and actually documented and not stories) of the mag disconnect being a benefit

As for the negligent vs accident, that's a tired old cliche. There was a thread on here about negligent discharges. A startingly high number of members here have had them, and I would wager we had more trigger time then the average gun owner since we are members of a gun forum. People aren't perfect. Mistakes do happen. And a mag disconnect can lessen them

Negligence happens. It's not a tired cliche. The only way for a firearm to go bang absent an uncommon mechanical failure is a finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon pointed in an unfortunate direction. Don't minimize it. And don't try to generalize and equate access to the internet with access to the range and proper training.

[John P.]

I think the evolution of retention holsters has prevented more "saves" than magazine disconnects. I can think of several attempted gun grabs prevented by good retention holsters just in my own department over the last twenty years while there were no incidents of mag disconnects affecting a situation either bad or good.

I taught Defensive tactics for years, and the first line of defense is a good quality retention holster. Also, pushing the magazine release in a fight for one's life is a poor idea. If the officer is in reasonable fear of serious injury or death, and still has control of the firearm that is pointed at the adversary, the officer should be pressing the trigger not the release. In a situation where the adversary has the officer's weapon or the firearm is pointed in an unsafe direction(at the officer or bystanders) it might be better to attempt to push the slide out of battery.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Negligence happens. It's not a tired cliche. The only way for a firearm to go bang absent an uncommon mechanical failure is a finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon pointed in an unfortunate direction. Don't minimize it. And don't try to generalize and equate access to the internet with access to the range and proper training.

Not minimizing anything. Just pointing out what members of the "my finger is my safety" and "my safety is between my ears" tribe refuse to acknowledge. That mistakes DO happen and they are not protected from them if anything, the arrogant over-confidence just breeds complacency. Bill Jordan, Marine hero and Border Patrol legend, survivor of countless shootouts, world renown exhibition shooter, had a negligent discharge. Killed a fellow officer. You think he didn't have access to a range and proper training? Or does a weekend at Blackwater make a person into a. Navy SEAL? Have a safety or not. You ARE not exempt from screwing up. And shooting 1000 rounds a week at a paper target doesn't train you to do anything but shoot at paper that is NOT shooting back. Doesn't do anything in a real situation

[Don 73]

I do personally know of one OIS where a mag safety MIGHT have saved the officer from getting a bullet in the hand:

Off duty walking down the street, jumped by 3 thugs. He drew his weapon (Glock 19) and a tussle immediately started over the gun. He managed to keep his left hand (left-handed officer) on the very butt of the gun and his right hand over the end of the slide. The A/H had the gun by the rear of the slide and when he yanked on the gun, the A/H's finger went into the trigger guard and pulled the trigger. The bullet, (a 147gr subsonic) hit the officer's right hand in the palm about 2" below the third and pinky fingers, blowing out a section of bone. Thanks to a pro-cop doctor (Head Surgeon at that) he retained the use of all five fingers instead of losing the pinky, although his grip strength was never the same.

Would a mag safety have made a difference ??? I don't know, but he was a lefty with a gun set up for a righty (mag release on left) so could he even have hit the mag release ??? From his account, it happened too fast.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

Not minimizing anything. Just pointing out what members of the "my finger is my safety" and "my safety is between my ears" tribe refuse to acknowledge. That mistakes DO happen and they are not protected from them if anything, the arrogant over-confidence just breeds complacency. Bill Jordan, Marine hero and Border Patrol legend, survivor of countless shootouts, world renown exhibition shooter, had a negligent discharge. Killed a fellow officer. You think he didn't have access to a range and proper training? Or does a weekend at Blackwater make a person into a. Navy SEAL? Have a safety or not. You ARE not exempt from screwing up. And shooting 1000 rounds a week at a paper target doesn't train you to do anything but shoot at paper that is NOT shooting back. Doesn't do anything in a real situation

You made my point. Apology accepted

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Don 73

I do personally know of one OIS where a mag safety MIGHT have saved the officer from getting a bullet in the hand:

Off duty walking down the street, jumped by 3 thugs. He drew his weapon (Glock 19) and a tussle immediately started over the gun. He managed to keep his left hand (left-handed officer) on the very butt of the gun and his right hand over the end of the slide. The A/H had the gun by the rear of the slide and when he yanked on the gun, the A/H's finger went into the trigger guard and pulled the trigger. The bullet, (a 147gr subsonic) hit the officer's right hand in the palm about 2" below the third and pinky fingers, blowing out a section of bone. Thanks to a pro-cop doctor (Head Surgeon at that) he retained the use of all five fingers instead of losing the pinky, although his grip strength was never the same.

Would a mag safety have made a difference ??? I don't know, but he was a lefty with a gun set up for a righty (mag release on left) so could he even have hit the mag release ??? From his account, it happened too fast.

Another reason why I never got that Glocks are so popular with police agencies. Not having ambidextrous or at least reversible mag catch and slide locks

[Edmo]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

Bad comparison. Carrying with an empty chamber requires 2 hands to operate the weapon if the need arises. The weapon is still hot with a mag disconnect.

And anybody who imagines getting into a gunfight where they have to sprint for safety while reloading is living in fantasyland, not to mention in that highly unlikely scenario you hit the mag release to begin with! Better odds of hitting the lottery! Sure you're not wearing that mall ninja t-shirt?

Reference my "sarcastic" input, you missed the point entirely.

Hitting the mag release to save your life in a struggle with a bad guy IMHO is also dabbling in the fantasy world. If that is what keeps you happy, please carry a gun with a mag disconnect safety and move on.

I'll travel a different route and live with the "risk" of not having a disconnect. Having that option is really what freedom of choice is all about (except in those restrictive locals) isn't it?

OBTW, for the record I'm still wearing my Mall Ninja hat and Internet Ranger shirt... Haven't changed that yet!

Edmo

[66 shooter]

Well, I don't know of any incidents, personally, of a save due to a mag disconnect. However, in all of my years as a street LEO, I always took the stand that if you were fighting with someone over control of your weapon, you are in a very serious and dire situation. During this if you had presence of mind to press the mag release button and you were trained to do that, and practiced that, fine. Otherwise, my first reaction is to press the trigger instead and neutralize the situation, you will be fighting for your life, if you decide to drop the mag I hope you carry a back up. Remember the other person is going to try and kill you, he's not taking your gun from you to clean it for you. Always a deadly force situation on the matrix. Just my 2 cents.

[shawn mccarver]

I have read a small number of accounts of mag safety "saves." I cannot ever recall reading of an instance where an officer, having lost a magazine, had to fire the one remaining in the chamber without a magazine in the pistol, which is the claimed advantage of not having the mag safety.

Massad Ayoob has written about this issue, and one of our own forum members, formerly of ISP, has elaborated on the existence of perhaps 4 or more incidents in his agency alone where the mag safety prevented an officer from being shot.

[SoCalDep]

Note the empty mag well and mag laying on the ground.

I've carried handguns on duty both with and without mag safeties. Personally it's a minimal issue for me.

Can one die because of a mag safety? Yes.
Can one die because of a lack of a mag safety? Yes.

Gimme a gun. I'll figure it out from there.

[rwsmith]

In a struggle for a gun that may be a last ditch maneuver that an attacker would not be expecting. Of course if he picked up the dropped mag and slapped it back in, you'd have a problem. I see no reason to fire a gun without a mag in it, so it's not hurting anything.

[John R]

All good info, the issued guns at my dept all have Mag safety's.

Never thought about if I like them or not.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Edmo

Reference my "sarcastic" input, you missed the point entirely.

Hitting the mag release to save your life in a struggle with a bad guy IMHO is also dabbling in the fantasy world. If that is what keeps you happy, please carry a gun with a mag disconnect safety and move on.

I'll travel a different route and live with the "risk" of not having a disconnect. Having that option is really what freedom of choice is all about (except in those restrictive locals) isn't it?

OBTW, for the record I'm still wearing my Mall Ninja hat and Internet Ranger shirt... Haven't changed that yet!

Edmo

I didn't miss the sarcasm. I took it to mean you were only exaggerating. But you continue to ignore documented saves plus personal experience and you refuse to provide ONE situation where a person lost their mag and fired that one round, ending the fight , yet you call that "fact". You base your decision on conjecture and mall ninja fantasy


And your fantasy of dropping the mag and "sprinting for safety while reloading and having to engage" made me laugh out loud. You REALLY think that IF you were in a gunfight and you lost your mag, that IF you managed to sprint away that you would not only have the ability to run, but also grab your second mag without looking ( or did you want to slam into a parked car or a wall while you DO look for it?) manage to get it IN the gun, then engage another target? And do you REALLY think that in that 2 seconds that you would not only need that one round, but that you could actually HIT a moving target while YOU are moving, and aiming one way while running another. Or were you planning on getting into a shooting in an open field?

You've been watching WAY too many movies

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by John P.

I think the evolution of retention holsters has prevented more "saves" than magazine disconnects. I can think of several attempted gun grabs prevented by good retention holsters just in my own department over the last twenty years while there were no incidents of mag disconnects affecting a situation either bad or good.

I taught Defensive tactics for years, and the first line of defense is a good quality retention holster. Also, pushing the magazine release in a fight for one's life is a poor idea. If the officer is in reasonable fear of serious injury or death, and still has control of the firearm that is pointed at the adversary, the officer should be pressing the trigger not the release. In a situation where the adversary has the officer's weapon or the firearm is pointed in an unsafe direction(at the officer or bystanders) it might be better to attempt to push the slide out of battery.

Of course if you're fighting over your gun that is pointing at the suspect you shoot shoot him. Nobody denies that. We're talking about a suspect trying to get your holstered gun. And yes, retention holsters help a lot. But the only problem is that perps know how their local cops holsters work. They watch and practice. And pressing a slide out if battery is WAY harder to do then Pressing a mag release once. You have to maintain the pressure on the slide to keep the gun disabled. If you lose control the gun is now active again

[federali]

The author is looking for examples, one way or the other. One thing that should be mentioned at the risk of further thread drift is that LEOs often get into a fight to retain possession of their gun incident to an arrest. This retention fight usually starts in the holster.

CCWs, on the other hand, should not be attempting citizens' arrests, a legal minefield if there ever was one. Judgment and tactics is everything. Try not to pull a gun unless you're justified in pulling the trigger. Also, open carry, while popular with segments of the shooting fraternity, may indeed put you in a fight of your life when someone (usually fresh out of the slammer) decides he needs your gun for whatever reason.

I also think that most magazines released during a fight for possession of a gun happened because of four hands on the gun rather than a deliberate decision to disable the gun by the officer.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by SoCalDep

Note the empty mag well and mag laying on the ground.

I've carried handguns on duty both with and without mag safeties. Personally it's a minimal issue for me.

Can one die because of a mag safety? Yes.
Can one die because of a lack of a mag safety? Yes.

Gimme a gun. I'll figure it out from there.

Great pic. It says a thousand words. Also points out that a determined person who does NOT want to go quietly can put up quite a fight and those two cops , who both appear to be above average size and weight, are having a hard time of it. Something for those "I maintain situational awareness at all times" crowd won't acknowledge.

[kbm6893]

The OP said he likes research. The info is out there. Just google "accidental shooting" and you'll get a bunch of civilians who shot a person with the mag out thinking they we're unloaded. Negligent, yes. But the person is still dead and would not be had the gun had a mag disconnect. For cop incidents, that material is generally not published. If he doesn't want to take the words of members here with first hand knowledge then he's pretty much out of luck

[HayesGreener]

Originally Posted by SoCalDep

Note the empty mag well and mag laying on the ground.

I've carried handguns on duty both with and without mag safeties. Personally it's a minimal issue for me.

Can one die because of a mag safety? Yes.
Can one die because of a lack of a mag safety? Yes.

Gimme a gun. I'll figure it out from there.

What a great photo. Is it from a dashcam video? I would like to see the video if so. Clearly depicts the biker trying to take the trooper's gun from the holster. The trooper has one hand on his gun and the other fighting the bad guy. Somehow the mag was dropped, intentionally by the officer, or inadvertently during the struggle? The story behind this image is exactly what I am looking for, thanks. P.S. is that Border Patrol assisting?

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by HayesGreener

What a great photo. Is it from a dashcam video? I would like to see the video if so. Clearly depicts the biker trying to take the trooper's gun from the holster. The trooper has one hand on his gun and the other fighting the bad guy. Somehow the mag was dropped, intentionally by the officer, or inadvertently during the struggle? The story behind this image is exactly what I am looking for, thanks. P.S. is that Border Patrol assisting?

I agree. Gun is obviously a S&W 3rd gen. Magazine is a double stack so either 9MM or .40 cal. The were so popular in the 80's and 90's precisely for the mag disconnect

[kcbet2]

I respect both opinions. When I was on the Dept. our weapons had the mag safety. I have always prefered it that way. If I got into a struggle over my weapon, I always had the option to drop the mag and let the attacker have the gun, back off and go for my backup and finish the matter. Again, just my humble opinion.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

The shootings you describe were negligent, not accidental. As for your observations about losing magazines, you weren't in the right fights. The stories are out there. I still maintain that as many people were saved by being able to fire their weapons as were saved by the bad guy not being able to fire their weapons.

Define "right fights". Sure rolled around several dozen times. Guess I was just lucky, huh? Knocking over coffee tables and bouncing off of walls and my magazine always stayed in

[45tex]

It should be noted that in the day of the third gen s&w's if you were a cop s&w would remove the mag disconnect for you at no charge. This thread could be 30 years old. I never had it removed from my 4506. I don't want it installed on my m&p today. Live and learn, but if you carry a gun learn the gun before you carry it.

[RobsTV]

I, like most I would imagine, have seen many shooters at the range accidentally and unknowingly bump the mag release when preparing to fire off a shot, rendering the pistol a useless brick instead. I would rather have at least that one chambered round function, than expecting a shot and nothing happens until you lock mag back into place. I think the scenario of mag accidently dropping a little would occur much more frequent than the need to purposely drop the mag under duress.