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  #1  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:34 AM
setxwarrior setxwarrior is offline
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Default M&P Shield 9 Shooting Way Low Left

Hello Boys and Girls, believe me the last thing I wanted to do was start another Shield thread, however wanted to get opinions before I reached out to S&W CS.

Yesterday was my 3rd trip to the range with the new shield, with consistent results each time. I finished my drills with my M&P 9fs 100 rounds. Then 5 mins dry firing the shield, then 50 live rounds. Changed targets and got the following 3 round groupings, left was @ 3yds, right @ 7 yards. I think 15yds would be off paper. Sending Remington UMC 115g.





I asked the range owner to put a few mags through it with consistent results, so fairly confident it's the weapon. There appears to be moderate sight upset when the trigger breaks while dry firing, however it appears to upset to the right not left. I'm thinking of pulling the DCAEK out of my 9fs to see what happens, however want S&W to check it out as is. The sights appear to be centered, however with no adjustment for elevation I'm really concerned.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:59 AM
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I took mine to the range for the first time yesterday. I had the same problem until I tried using different parts of my trigger finger on the trigger.

If I put the trigger up against the first joint of my trigger finger - it shoots dead on. If I use the pad or tip of my finger, it is low/left.

Go try that.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:11 AM
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It's you, not the gun. How are you holding it, both thumbs along the slide or *cup & saucer* style ?
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:32 AM
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Recoil anticipation. Common with small guns. Whats the heaviest recoiling gun you shoot regularly?
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:00 AM
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I had the same issue when I first shot mine, too.
I believe it was because I was not used to the trigger pull weight. I was used to shooting at 3.5 lbs. Plus, the slim grip took a little getting used to.
I say just give it time.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:03 AM
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Mine is dead on. It could be your grip or trigger control.

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Old 05-04-2012, 09:06 AM
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Shoot it from a rest to confirm it is the gun and not a trigger control issue.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:09 AM
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New M&P 9 - Shooting Low - Options?

Seems to be a common malady.
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  #9  
Old 05-04-2012, 10:15 AM
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Well he said, if I understood correctly, that he has had the shield to the range 3 times before this with good consistent results, until now.
I find it hard to believe he is at fault IF he has been better before now with this gun.
I suggest shooting it on a rest to be sure....it is the gun, sometimes....
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkpitbull View Post
Well he said, if I understood correctly, that he has had the shield to the range 3 times before this with good consistent results, until now.
I find it hard to believe he is at fault IF he has been better before now with this gun.
I suggest shooting it on a rest to be sure....it is the gun, sometimes....
Thanks to all for the feedback and suggestions. Actually the results on all three sessions have bee consistent and as in the example picture.

As noted, I had just finished 100 rounds with my M&P 9FS, dry firing the Shield and 50 rounds of live fire with the Shield, so extremely confident it is not my anticipation. I consistently put the rounds through the same hole (both weapons), which further helps me think it is not trigger control. If the groups were not so tight and consistent with distance, I would think otherwise. Also having someone else shoot the weapon with the same results means something.

I acknowledge that it does take some time to get acquainted with a new weapons system, and am willing to do it, just stating that unfortunately in this case I think it has more to do with my Shield than with my capabilities.

I just ordered a DCAEK, as well as a set of XS Big Dot's. I'll make one install at a time so I can see which/either helps the situation.

Until they come in, I'll keep sending them in order to get this dialed in. I will definitely try switching to the first finger joint instead of the pad of my finger and see what happens.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titegroups View Post
Recoil anticipation. Common with small guns. Whats the heaviest recoiling gun you shoot regularly?
This. I was doing the same thing at first. I had someone else shoot it and they were hitting the bulls eye. Maybe you have your sight adjusted slightly to the right if you don't improve your trigger control.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titegroups View Post
Recoil anticipation. Common with small guns. Whats the heaviest recoiling gun you shoot regularly?
M&P 15OR (AR 15), M&P 9FS, S&W 39-2, Remington 1911R1 Enhanced, weekly.
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2012, 12:30 PM
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I think shipwreck is probably correct in his assessment.
I usually use the pad of the finger with semi autos and the first joint with wheelguns.
Taking into consideration the fact that the Shield is a small pistol,with a short trigger each,using the first joint of the trigger finger may help to solve the problem.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kris7047th View Post
It's you, not the gun. How are you holding it, both thumbs along the slide or *cup & saucer* style ?
Fist on fist.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by setxwarrior View Post
Thanks to all for the feedback and suggestions. Actually the results on all three sessions have bee consistent and as in the example picture.

As noted, I had just finished 100 rounds with my M&P 9FS, dry firing the Shield and 50 rounds of live fire with the Shield, so extremely confident it is not my anticipation. I consistently put the rounds through the same hole (both weapons), which further helps me think it is not trigger control. If the groups were not so tight and consistent with distance, I would think otherwise. Also having someone else shoot the weapon with the same results means something.

I acknowledge that it does take some time to get acquainted with a new weapons system, and am willing to do it, just stating that unfortunately in this case I think it has more to do with my Shield than with my capabilities.

I just ordered a DCAEK, as well as a set of XS Big Dot's. I'll make one install at a time so I can see which/either helps the situation.

Until they come in, I'll keep sending them in order to get this dialed in. I will definitely try switching to the first finger joint instead of the pad of my finger and see what happens.
I used to do the same ting. I have a damaged idex finger, missing the tip from a childhood injury. If the grip is too fat/big, I can't reach the trigger properly and will *mash* the trigger causing me to shoot low left. Same thing when I get tired if I don't focus. Is there someone who is a good shooter in your area (trainer) who can teach you fundamentals ? Once you have someone who can identify what you are doing, then you can fix the issue (why I have sold other guns in the past and buy/use the type that will serve me best. I started with a S&W 638, then Ruger LCP & LCR, Glock 19 and G26 .. moved to M&P9c (small back strap) and the Shield. I Sold all of the others except the G19.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kris7047th View Post
I used to do the same ting. I have a damaged idex finger, missing the tip from a childhood injury. If the grip is too fat/big, I can't reach the trigger properly and will *mash* the trigger causing me to shoot low left. Same thing when I get tired if I don't focus. Is there someone who is a good shooter in your area (trainer) who can teach you fundamentals ? Once you have someone who can identify what you are doing, then you can fix the issue (why I have sold other guns in the past and buy/use the type that will serve me best. I started with a S&W 638, then Ruger LCP & LCR, Glock 19 and G26 .. moved to M&P9c (small back strap) and the Shield. I Sold all of the others except the G19.
Kris,
Thanks for the input, and glad you were able to overcome the injury and identify how to manage it.

I am a very experienced shooter, train diligently on a variety of weapon systems, and compete regularly. So a little beyond needing to be shown fundamentals. With that being said, I am always learning and reaching out for help and advice when I have an opportunity.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman1974 View Post
Just a thought,,,If you shoot it with your other hand and the results are reversed,,that would seem to indicate grip/trigger control as the cause. If the results are the same shooting left or right handed that would seem to indicate a gun issue?

Thoughts?
Very good suggestion I will try tomorrow. Some of the drills I run for IDPA are support hand, and support hand only, and have not run them with the Shield.

BTW, just rec'd an e-mail fromXS Sights, and they are already back ordered on the Big Dot's, and are 2-3 weeks out.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:54 PM
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Maybe the barrel's clocked?
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:27 PM
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Maybe, just maybe its not him and, heaven forbid, it may be a problem with his shield....yes I said it.
Everyone automatically pointed to the shooter as the problem, and sometimes it is, but the man said he can shoot similar weapons correctly. So I would say call s&w.

I say this cause I got the same, "your not shooting it correctly" when I asked about why my sw9ve was shooting low. I knew it wasn't me, cause I shot it from a sandbag and got the exact results but people still told me it was me. I got new meprolight night sights, hoping maybe it would help, but mainly for the night sights.
The gun still shot low so I filed down the front sight and the gun now hits POA, off hand and from a rest.
Just sayin...
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:27 PM
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I just had the same problem with a 5"40 pro. Had me beating me head against the wall, had my buddy shoot it and low left same as me. drifted the front site a little to the left and went to 180 grain ammo the site adjustment took care of the left and the heaver bullets took care of the low. I was shooting 155 grain bullets. try some different ammo.
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setxwarrior View Post
Kris,
Thanks for the input, and glad you were able to overcome the injury and identify how to manage it.

I am a very experienced shooter, train diligently on a variety of weapon systems, and compete regularly. So a little beyond needing to be shown fundamentals. With that being said, I am always learning and reaching out for help and advice when I have an opportunity.
Did not know that. Sometimes it's hard to discern who is experienced from those who are not .. the 'net being what it is. Hope you resolve the issue asap.
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Old 05-05-2012, 08:05 AM
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Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

I'm stuck on the fence now about making any changes to the weapon, as my preference is that if I do send it back, I want it to be exactly as it left the factory.

I will be trying several of the suggestions given before I do the DCAEK.

The heart of my concern is this will be my CCW, and if I ever need it I don't want to have to remember all of the sight picture adjustments needed for a given distance, and if it is truly that far off my concern is where a missed round could end up. Imagine a stress situation where we train for center mass, the bad guy is @ 10 yds and he ends up with a hole in his front right pocket.

I have plenty of other weapons to use to make pretty little groups of holes in paper with!

I love this firearm!
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Old 05-05-2012, 01:19 PM
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As a pistol instructor, I see this with all sorts of the new "thin" pistols. You are a right hand shooter. Hold your hand out in front of you. Make a fist. Squeeze the fist. Notice how your hand twists to the left and drops down. It is NORMAL hand mechanics. When you manipulate the trigger, you are thinking "squeeze". DO NOT SQUEEZE ANYTHING. Think "PRESS" as in pressing a button. Dry fire the gun 1K times using a press utill you no longer see your sight picture change or move. Since the gun is so thin, you are not used to a slim grip. You may have to get a better, more stable grip on the pistol. You may want to try a Hogue Handall Jr. slip on sleeve grip to help you out until you learn a true trigger press.

I have a had a Walther PPS for 3 years now. I had the same issue when I first got it. Practice with it made me a better shooter - and instructor.
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:47 AM
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Update. I installed a full DCAEK yesterday, and while the feel of the action was not dramatically different (good thing), the amount of trigger upset went from significant to ZERO! Literally non-existent.

Still waiting on sights.

I hope to get this and my new 1911 to the range to try them out. Will post results.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:31 AM
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Please keep us posted on this and also please try some different ammo.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:02 AM
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When teaching I too use the term "PRESS" the trigger as the dated method of saying "SQUEEZE" the trigger causes ones brain to squeeze the grip of the firearm TIGHTER. "PRESS works better for my students practicing trigger control.

The amount of FINGER PLACED UPON THE TRIGGER CAN VARY THE IMPACT AREA.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kris7047th View Post
It's you, not the gun. How are you holding it, both thumbs along the slide or *cup & saucer* style ?
Agreed, I have the same issue with my 40c and I know it's me. Shooting with finger pad will do it for sure, I know that.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:21 AM
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Love this site!



Learn a lot everyday reading these threads... Thank you!
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:36 PM
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I find myself shooting my Shield low and to the right (I'm left-handed). It is definitely me. I let my wife shoot it (BIG mistake) and she shoots dead on target. She REALLY likes the gun; I think I may end up buying a second one.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setxwarrior View Post
Update. I installed a full DCAEK yesterday, and while the feel of the action was not dramatically different (good thing), the amount of trigger upset went from significant to ZERO! Literally non-existent.

Still waiting on sights.

I hope to get this and my new 1911 to the range to try them out. Will post results.
I'm from Beaumont too. I'm about to buy a M&P 9FS as well. What range do you go to?

Btw. I wouldn't use the pressing the trigger with your joint method just to compensate. Use the pad of the finger always.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
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I'm from Beaumont too. I'm about to buy a M&P 9FS as well. What range do you go to?

Btw. I wouldn't use the pressing the trigger with your joint method just to compensate. Use the pad of the finger always.
Cool! Lonestar in Lumberton, can't recommend them enough. I'll be there today trying out the shield with the DCAEK. They have a M&P 40fs in the rental cabinet it you want to test drive a M&P FS, or can meet me there and you're more than welcome to test drive my 9fs and the shield.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by setxwarrior View Post
Cool! Lonestar in Lumberton, can't recommend them enough. I'll be there today trying out the shield with the DCAEK. They have a M&P 40fs in the rental cabinet it you want to test drive a M&P FS, or can meet me there and you're more than welcome to test drive my 9fs and the shield.
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  #33  
Old 05-10-2012, 01:35 PM
SteveInAustin SteveInAustin is offline
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Same thing was happening to me. I wanted to blame the gun but had a buddy shoot it. He was dead on.
In short, I can't blame the gun
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:41 AM
setxwarrior setxwarrior is offline
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Had much better results with the Shield with the DCAEK, it is definitely me pulling the shots now, some dead on with some fliers low left, which is now consistent on all my weapons. I'm over thinking it now. I had my son shoot it and both he was good out to 15yds.

I tried each of the suggestions, thanks to all.

Now every time I get a sight picture I think "don't shoot low left, don't shoot low left", so naturally I shoot low left. Great.
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  #35  
Old 05-11-2012, 09:51 AM
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For me I think it really is griping too tight and using the pads of my finger. I've been working a lot lately on my hold and I've seen a lot of improvement firing with the knuckle and loosing my grip. I've also been placing my left index finger extended below the slide and using it the help guide and steady the pistol. This also seems to serve to push it back to the right a bit and correct the natural move to the left.

Not sure if this is right or not as I'm no professional but it seems to help...
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  #36  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:10 PM
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My 1'st range session with my Shield was yesterday and it was shooting to the left. A couple friends shot it and they too shot to the left. Easy fix, I just drifted the front sight to the left and now it's dead on, problem solved.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:05 PM
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I just picked mine up this morning and put 100 through it.
Being used to single stacks with long DAO triggers, shooting this was a breeze and POA/POI was right on.

I used to shoot Low-Left with DAOs and had to learn to 'isolate' my trigger finger. Someone pointed out that as I squeezed the trigger, I was also squeezing (milking) the grip, which forced the pistol down & left. Once I got used to isolating my trigger finger and Pressing just the trigger instead of letting my whole hand squeeze. The Low-Left disappeared.

If the problem is indeed Pilot Error and not a sight issue...
One way to verify muzzle movement is Snap-Cap/Dry Fire practice standing only a couple inches from the wall and watching the muzzle move away from the point on the wall you're aiming at.

I'm not into Lasers on a CC pistol, but lasers are great training aids when it comes to Snap-Cap/Dry Fire practice. Taping a cheap laser to the pistol and watching it dance during snap-cap trigger press practice will expose any unintentional movement.

Last edited by RobzGuns; 05-11-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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  #38  
Old 05-11-2012, 06:08 PM
mlapaglia mlapaglia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag318 View Post
My 1'st range session with my Shield was yesterday and it was shooting to the left. A couple friends shot it and they too shot to the left. Easy fix, I just drifted the front sight to the left and now it's dead on, problem solved.
Let us know in 300 rounds if its now shooting to the right. I had my shield and it was to the left for me and my son and the range master. None of us had ever shot a Shield. I did a lot of dry firing to learn how to keep the gun steady and not move when I pulled the trigger. Ran about 300 rounds through it for practice and it now shoots dead on. It was me not the gun. If it wasnt the gun you can always move the sites back. I was low and left first time I shot a glock 19 too.

either way you can always set it back you need to. It could have been off but the standard reason for low left is new gun. Good luck

Last edited by mlapaglia; 05-11-2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: added thought
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlapaglia View Post
Let us know in 300 rounds if its now shooting to the right. I had my shield and it was to the left for me and my son and the range master. None of us had ever shot a Shield. I did a lot of dry firing to learn how to keep the gun steady and not move when I pulled the trigger. Ran about 300 rounds through it for practice and it now shoots dead on. It was me not the gun. If it wasnt the gun you can always move the sites back. I was low and left first time I shot a glock 19 too.

either way you can always set it back you need to. It could have been off but the standard reason for low left is new gun. Good luck
I'm going back to the range Monday and I'll see if it's still dead on or shooting right. A friend who owns a local shop invested in a universal sight pusher which makes drifting the sight easy and very precise. I didn't move it a lot maybe 1 millimeter, the elevation is perfect with everything I shot through it.
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  #40  
Old 05-12-2012, 08:23 PM
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Yep. Little hard recoiling guns are great for developing a flinch. I bet a lot of those 40's have the same problem.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:39 PM
stevet1 stevet1 is offline
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I too was shooting poorly low left and some guy at the range reminded me to use the area of my finger next to the joint and not the pad to pull the trigger. It did help a lot.
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  #42  
Old 05-18-2012, 11:19 AM
stevet1 stevet1 is offline
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Default What about the larger grip on the M&P

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_E_ View Post
As a pistol instructor, I see this with all sorts of the new "thin" pistols. You are a right hand shooter. Hold your hand out in front of you. Make a fist. Squeeze the fist. Notice how your hand twists to the left and drops down. It is NORMAL hand mechanics. When you manipulate the trigger, you are thinking "squeeze". DO NOT SQUEEZE ANYTHING. Think "PRESS" as in pressing a button. Dry fire the gun 1K times using a press utill you no longer see your sight picture change or move. Since the gun is so thin, you are not used to a slim grip. You may have to get a better, more stable grip on the pistol. You may want to try a Hogue Handall Jr. slip on sleeve grip to help you out until you learn a true trigger press.

I have a had a Walther PPS for 3 years now. I had the same issue when I first got it. Practice with it made me a better shooter - and instructor.
The M&P ships with 3 different size grips and the medium one being on the gun when you get it. Would you recommend just trying the large grip to see what happens?
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  #43  
Old 05-19-2012, 10:24 AM
setxwarrior setxwarrior is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevet1 View Post
The M&P ships with 3 different size grips and the medium one being on the gun when you get it. Would you recommend just trying the large grip to see what happens?
The Shield does not have interchangeable back straps, fixed.
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  #44  
Old 05-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Storm40 Storm40 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_E_ View Post
As a pistol instructor, I see this with all sorts of the new "thin" pistols. You are a right hand shooter. Hold your hand out in front of you. Make a fist. Squeeze the fist. Notice how your hand twists to the left and drops down. It is NORMAL hand mechanics. When you manipulate the trigger, you are thinking "squeeze". DO NOT SQUEEZE ANYTHING. Think "PRESS" as in pressing a button. Dry fire the gun 1K times using a press utill you no longer see your sight picture change or move. Since the gun is so thin, you are not used to a slim grip. You may have to get a better, more stable grip on the pistol. You may want to try a Hogue Handall Jr. slip on sleeve grip to help you out until you learn a true trigger press.

I have a had a Walther PPS for 3 years now. I had the same issue when I first got it. Practice with it made me a better shooter - and instructor.
+1
Not only with thin pistols but small pistols in general
have a more difficult learning curve than their full sized siblings.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:10 PM
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I put 450 rounds thru mine today. I LOVE this gun. Damn accurate, too.

As I stated above - I push the trigger all the way to the first joint in my finger. Works great that way!
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:04 AM
AE7HF AE7HF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cracker57 View Post
I just had the same problem with a 5"40 pro. Had me beating me head against the wall, had my buddy shoot it and low left same as me. drifted the front site a little to the left and went to 180 grain ammo the site adjustment took care of the left and the heaver bullets took care of the low. I was shooting 155 grain bullets. try some different ammo.
Cracker57
Thank you for this!.. I took one of my M&P .40's (i have two) out to the range today and the exact same thing. (PMC 155 grain ammo).. Low to the left. I'm normally dead on with Glocks, Sigs, etc, Even blew out the bullseye on my ccw qual. I knew it wasn't me. I went out and told the range guy. He came in with 5 rounds at 21 feet. Same exact thing. I will try doing that with my front site. See if that helps. I'll bump up the ammo. you wouldn't thing a lighter bullet would have that much drop at 21 feet. Guess it does.
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  #47  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:25 AM
Whatgorilla Whatgorilla is offline
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First range trip today. 2 brands of FMJ, one of HP.
150 flawless rounds.

However, the Shield was shooting 2-3" left at 7 yards.

Most dead on vertically (some high, some low, so I know that's me).
If it keeps up after another range visit or two, with other shooters, I guess I'll drift the front a tad and see. I'm used to the lighter PF-9, so I don't think there's recoil anticipation--but I have been shooting an awful lot of .22LR lately. ;o)
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:27 AM
j.glock j.glock is offline
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I believe is the shooter not the gun. Mine is on par with my g26. And i been familiar with m&p for a few days vs few years with glock. I love my shield so it deserves new sights. Apex trigger kit. I don't give all guns the special treatment. Gun has great recoil. Feels great in hand. And fit and finish is superb vs other polymer sub compacts i.e. Keltec. Shield is now in my carry rotation although my primary go to gun is the Walter ppq right now. But in terms of slim sub compacts it has surpassed. Khar cm cw series. Ruger lc9. Taurus slim. Keltec pf9. Nano.. Never shot the pps so can't say pps or the new Sig 938 but it all seems the shield is just getting started.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:50 AM
GnarlyTwoTrack GnarlyTwoTrack is offline
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What I tried yesterday was... after a safety checked pull the trigger to dry fire it. Now you can pull the trigger it's distance without dry firing it. See if you're tugging even on that lighter pull. I noticed I might be so I could imagine it would be even worse loaded. You could also try getting snap caps. I'm always iffy about dry firing even though I believe it's ok for this gun.
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Old 05-26-2012, 02:12 AM
GnarlyTwoTrack GnarlyTwoTrack is offline
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Wow... it is definitely me. Had an M&P competitive shooter try my gun out today. She shot 5 through it at 30 and got all about 2 inches from a 1 inch dot. Dang! I knew she'd know. She showed me all kinds of stuff. Such as Gripping more like 60% with your front fist and your trigger hand on 40%. Also the first pad of your finger. I dry fired it a few times after these tips and I felt it was much better. Remember pull the trigger and not squeeze the trigger. Try dry firing a few "rounds" before you actually pop off the real thing to prepare yourself instead of wasting bullets. Yes, I took advise from a chick but you would too if you knew her...
P.S. Yes, I realize all these things will go out the window in a threat... but muscle memory may keep some of it into play.
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