Not to be a wet blanket but I have a question regarding aftermarket trigger parts. Anyone know the legality of them if they are used for self defense? I have not seen much on this topic. It may just increase one's lawyer costs in court if you were using a non-stock trigger.

BTW, this is coming from a man with over a dozen revolvers and pistols that have triggers from Votquartzen, Powder River, S&W Performance Center, Clark, Ed Brown, and Ahlman's, so I am just asking, not criticizing. My only stock triggers are my carry guns. Kahr PM9, Shield, Sig 226 and a 340PD.

Depends on where you live and the politics of your local DA. Would not mean a tinkers dam if you shot an unwanted visitor in the middle of the night in your home here in Texas even with a 12 gauge. All my hand guns have lighter than stock triggers. The secret is to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

In a nanny state like NY it probably would result in a 1st degree murder charge even the perp was raping your wife while holding you at knife point. Criminals have rights too is the left wing mantra. DA would probably say you and your wife should have fled your house and you are a ultra right wing gun crazed lunatic. I lived in NY for 50 years and got out s soon as I could.

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'THE HYPNOTIZED NEVER LIE"

I'm no lawyer nor do I know each and every state's law, but I think aftermarket trigger parts that alter the pull weight would only get you into trouble if it was an AD that shot someone in the process. If you're deliberately pulling the trigger in self defense and state it as so, I don't see how it makes a difference. The reason why ultra light combat triggers on defensive pistols are frowned upon is because of what could happen in my first sentence.

I have done a little tuning, but just on my competition guns.

The experts (Masaad Ayoob,Clint Smith,etc.) would tell that you should not pull the hammer back on a revolver switching it to single action in a SD situation. The lighter trigger pull could be used against you with an attorney claiming you didn't really mean to pull the trigger and had an AD and killed the guy. Same could be said for modifying the trigger on a semi-auto. There are some lawyers out there with an agenda who will use the lighter trigger pull against you if they feel somehow it was a questionable shooting.

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I understand all the above posts. I am not worried about ME shooting in self defense, I am worried how the prosecutor in the case views it.

Lawyers love altered parts in cars and guns because it can create a case for negligence on the part of the shooter/driver because of the "unnecessary" alteration.

This one topic baffles me on how people alter/ modify CCW pistols and not worry about the legal ramifications. My opinion, the less that the lawyers need to use against me in a self defense situation the better. I would never alter or modify any pistols I carry CCW and I would suggest that to anyone that does.

If you want to modify/alter / bling bling your competition pistols or range pistols, that's one thing, but a CCW firearms to protect your life and family I would never touch or alter the trigger. Just leave it stock. That's why pistols like DAO or with safeties are made so you don't get into a " Ooops!!!" situation.

Just my thoughts.

It seems we are giving far too much credit to attorneys here...

I know here in Montana the first thing the DA is going to do is strip the gun down and see if any after market parts are in the gun...............


(and then order a set for themselves)

Randy

Much will depend on where legal proceedings are held and what the specific circumstances of the incident are. For instance, what would be making headlines if George Zimmerman had an aftermarket "hair" trigger"? He is already on very questionable legal ground and I am betting that anything they could use against him would be brought up and paraded before the court/media.

Honestly, the stock M&P has a nice combat trigger system. If you want a great trigger in a stock carry gun, go to the 1911.

This question has been posted many times on many different forums. I think I've seen one response that may have had some sort of evidence that it might have been a factor in a case. But that's it.

Until someone posts a confirmed case where a conviction has been obtained because after market parts were used and just not because it was a bad shoot, I'm skeptical.

If you meant to pull the trigger and it was is deemed a good shoot then I remain doubtful that any criminal action would be taken. Civil action is a different matter entirely and the mother of the little angel that never did a bad thing in their life but was caught breaking into your home in the middle of the night and wound up shot could bring a wrongful death suit.

IANAL so take all this for what it's worth.

There may even be another angle to this issue. I wonder how the average juror would view the DIY gunsmithing that goes on with many trigger upgrades. Let's face it, modern guns like the M&P are so simple that many folks are quite capable of working on them, but that doesn't change how it could be spun to the average "soccer mom" juror that probably has never shot a firearm in her life...

One would think that if a professional gunsmith did the work, a case could be made that safe functioning was assured.

The adrenaline rush caused by the life or death situation will completely over-ride any potential advantage that the altered parts would give you anyway. My self defense guns are box stock and my ammunition is factory, but that's another topic all together. My competition guns are altered as much as the rules allow.

There is a reason that Glock developed the "New York Trigger".

Yeah, they're called New York Liberals.

I have a stock M&P9 and I was looking to get a Apex DCAEK and RAM install. Now, I guess not!

All I can add to this is if I'm in a situation where I have to defend my self or my family you can bet Your life Ill grab the first gun I can get my hands no matter what has been done to it. Besides where I live most of the Law Enforcement officers have work done to there carry pistols also and I wouldn't have a problem pointing that out in court just my 2 cents.

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I love Sigma's and M&P's

The issue here is not "legality". There is nothing in the law, as far as I know, that says you have to have a certain trigger pull weight. The issue is, can opposing counsel accuse you of having a too-light trigger pull, and claim you unintentionally shot someone? This can come up in a criminal trial, and the shooter can be made to look irresponsible for modifying their gun. It is much more likely in a civil trial. Opposing counsel make you look like somebody who unwisely made your gun have a "hair trigger". This makes you look irresponsible, and of course is the reason you ACCIDENTALLY shot their client. If it was an accident, they can go after your homeowners insurance, which probably has deeper pockets than you.
This happens, folks, which is why my carry guns have stock triggers. I can shoot them just fine that way.
Jim

Rotty37 sums it up perfectly. Do any of us really need a target hair trigger in a carry gun? Leave that for the target guns. Years ago my Dad did alot work on a 1911 that was only for target use. I remember him telling me to NEVER use that gun as a carry weapon, as it had a hair trigger, & the grip safety was bypassed. Well he sure was right. Awesome target gun, but I'd never carry it. A lawyer would have a field day with that gun if it was involved in a shooting. GARY N4KVE

That, and the fact that their poorly trained officers were shooting themselves with 7 1/2lb trigger pulls on Kahrs so they took them off the approved list. Their Glocks have 12lb trigger pulls which I guess is enough for them. Maybe they should carry Nagant revolvers since even getting off a first DA shot would be a task.

NYPD brass to cops: Stop using Kahr K-9 pistol - New York Daily News

The only thing I see being an issue is if you put something in your gun that is made for competition. If it's something to make the reset shorter, smooth out the pull or take any slack out, it's not a "hair trigger". I still have yet to read a case about a gun's parts being brought up in a trial.

Considering there are factory trigger pulls and factory installed parts to make a pull lighter, what is the difference? I did read where a store clerk shot someone trying to rob his store with a .22lr target pistol. The shoot was found to be justified and that was that. Now we know target guns have lighter triggers on them so was it okay because it was a justified shoot and was the gun stock or modified? Does it matter if a gun comes stock with a 4.5-5lb pull or that someone brought a 7-8lb trigger down to 4.5-5lbs by dropping in a sear or polishing a part? The hard sear from Apex claims a 4.5 trigger pull which is just about right. I'd rather have a nice 4.5-5lb trigger pull to make accurate shots/0 misses than fight a 12lb NY Glock pull any day.

Think about it. Does it matter if I defended my self with a bone stock cocked and locked 1911 or a bone stock DAO P89? I could find stock firearms with a 3# pull or less all the way up to a 20# pull or more.

It's really all speculation until it happens but like I said, if you're defending your life and deliberately pull the trigger and state it as so, the mods to your gun are the least of your worries.

I have the APEX "DUTY/CARRY" PACKAGE

The END RESULT is a smooth 5 1/2 pound pull (Lyman digital gauge) that IS NOT a HAIR TRIGGER. My original factory pull on the Shield averaged 7.5 to 8 pounds, S&W advertises a 6 1/2 pound pull. The APEX Kit is a DROP-IN STRAIGHT SWAP-OUT OF PARTS (hardened sear, ultimate striker block, trigger spring), WITH NO PARTS ALTERATIONS OR GUNSMITH TYPE WORK NEED AT ALL.

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i wouldnt worry about it. a justifiable shot is just that no matter what the pull weight of your trigger is. Just like using reloads for defensive ammo. Some people say thats a NO NO but, I trust my handloads alot more than factory ammo.

All respect, but that determination is NOT up to you!

Even in pro-gun states there are pockets of leftist administration.I live in one of the most 2A friendly states in America, but I cannot vouch for the political affiliation of every DA in the state.I'm certain there are liberal prosecutors in Texas just like there are in NJ and NY.These are the people who will decide whether your shooting was justified or not.

Get attacked by a perp in some parts in America and you will be on thin legal ice pulling a gun to begin with.Don't fall through it and drown in the depths of financial debt and prison because you had to tote that 3.5lb Glock with you.

Rotty

I agree. I watched a YouTube video of a guy removing the safety on the Shield. It is obvious if you had an accidental discharge the removal of the safety would be mentioned in court only 1000 times in the same sentence as reckless and careless.

If the case is being argued if you shot someone in self defense it would in my opinion be a stretch to argue modifying a CCW is proof it wasn't justified but I would not rule out an attorney in a self defense case attempting to portray the shooter as a person with little regard for life mention as supporting evidence the shooter packing a loaded gun with the safety removed.

Russ

P.S. I served on a jury where the accused was being tried for possession of a firearm while on probation which in my state is a big no no. The firearm was a single shot shotgun with a sawed off barrel. Multiple times during the case we the jury were reminded it was illegal to saw off the barrel. The issue was did he have possession of a firearm and the sawing off of the gun barrel had zero to do with the charge but the prosecuting attorney wanted us to know in my opinion we were dealing with a person willing to break the law in more ways than one.

I bring this up because attorneys will argue gun modifications just like my sawed off example if it will strengthen their case.

You are absolutely correct. I should probably said "defend-ability"

I am sure ANY mods to a gun would certainly not help your case in court if the prosecution knew about them. Thus costing me more money for lawyer time and possibly putting my defense in jeopardy.

Anyone have a IWB holster for a Hammerly SP20?

This is a "Urban Myth" , only exist in opinion's . And just like ---holes , everyone has one !

I would love to see a case anywhere in America where the legality of a shoot was determined by a trigger job. If I am forced to shoot someone, what difference does it make if I shoot him with my 1911 with a 4lb pull or my 686 with a 9lb pull

There's a lawyer attached to every round you fire already.

Clearly other factors in the shooting will be more important than your aftermarket trigger.

I have no doubt my years of training in lethal force as a sworn LEO, the six Thunder Ranch classes, and the log book I keep of nearly weekly range training trips, and the facts of the case along with what I say after the shooting, will be far more important than the 3.5 Lbs trigger of my Wilson Combat that was at one time my certified off duty weapon.

Your mileage may very.

Emory

4 lb trigger is not a hair trigger. Most 1911 out of the box are lighter. What is the trigger weight on a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger?
In most states the shooter is liable for any injury to a innocent 3rd party. A lighter trigger helps with accuracy. I do not place my finger on the trigger unless I intend to fire. I have said this before it depends on where u live. In Texas the law states that if it is a good shoot the shooter has immunity from Civil Suits by the perp and his family. With the logic used about stock trigger if you put Apex springs in you J frame taking it from 12 to 8 pounds result in a lawsuit. If so have a good attorney. You are going to get sued no matter what you use. Would a 12 gauge be too much gun to stop a threat.
I don't expect to change any minds because I no longer carry in NY. I do know Texas law and no where in the law mentions altered firarms , trigger weight , night sights size of magazines, safeties or type of ammunition how much you practice.
If I lived in a left wing liberal state on either of the Coasts I may be concerned, but that gets me back to my premise that it matters more where you live and what the politics of your local DA is. Pro or anti gun rights.

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court case link (People v. Superior Court (Du) (1992) 5 CA4th 822)
Basically, what happened was Mrs. Du shot Latasha Harlins with a 38 S&W revolver. Part of Mrs. Du's defense claim was that she didn't know of the "hair trigger" the gun supposedly had.

The entire court case is long, so I'll post the relevant parts here.(Emphasis mine)

Here is what their supposed expert whitness said for the record. I am quite disappointed in their whitness.
David Butler, a Los Angeles Police Department ballistics expert, testified extensively about the gun, a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver with a two-inch barrel. In summary, he testified that the gun had been altered crudely and that the trigger pull necessary to fire the gun had been drastically reduced. Also, both the locking mechanism of the hammer and the main spring tension screw of the gun had been altered so that the hammer could be released without putting much pressure on the trigger. In addition, the safety mechanism did not function properly.



The part of the court's opinion regarding this is here.
The court commented at sentencing that it did not "believe that Mrs. Du would be here today if the gun that she grabbed for protection had not been altered." The court elaborated: "This was a gun that had been stolen from the Du family and had been returned to them shortly before the shooting. The court has been presented with no evidence, and I do not believe that Mrs. Du knew that the gun had been altered in such a way as to ... make it an automatic weapon with a hairpin trigger. Ordinarily a .38 revolver is one of the safest guns in the world. Ordinarily, a woman Mrs. Du's size would have to decide consciously to pull the trigger and exert considerable strength to do so, but that was not true of the gun used to shoot Latasha Harlins. I have serious questions in my mind whether this crime would have been committed at all but for the altered gun."

Ultimately she got probation for her acts....

All she had to do was not put her finger on the trigger and no "Bang,Bang" . She got off easy . The minute you put finger to trigger amd pull , no matter how light , yuo pulled trigger not trigger pulled finger . She and her lawyer were idiot's . Either you meant to pull trigger and it was a good shoot , or no matter what "oops ,I din't mean too " iit was a bad shoot and your fault . Mrs. Du made a decision to pull trigger , light or not . Anouther thing what safety device is on a .38 revolver , and how was turned into an aotomatic wepon . Again the court or "judge" whom made statement is a defacto "Idiot " . No way the gun was an "automatic wepon " , and there are no manual safties .

If you admit in court to "intentionally firing the weapon," it should not make any difference at trial. This does NOT mean the opposing lawyer will not attemp to use it against you, just that it should not affect outcome with a reasonable jury.

If it is an "accidental discharge," by you or a third party, I would think the posability of being found at fault will increase. Aftermarket parts do not guarantee you will lose anything, but they do provide a focused point of attack to a lawyer.

I have the APEX DCAEK kit in my defense gun. So obviously I am not very concerned about it.

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Gerry

+1 for G Conway and Edd H - if you intended to pull the trigger then who cares if your trigger was smooth, light or in any other manner made to function as to give you a reliable trigger pull thereby increasing your accuracy. IF you had an AD - then you have opened the door. I know of more AD's with a Glock by LE than with any other firearms combined.

hair-trigger - Its underlying meaning is something that may be triggered with the pressure of something as slight as a hair. Got one of these?

Same thing probably would happen here in Texas.

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Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.
All those on this thread screaming that a DA only trigger that is modified from 6 to 4 lbs are going to be immediately incarcerated and you will be someone's girl friend at state prison.
I'll bet that Clinton Smith carriers a 1911 pistol with a SA trigger at 3 lbs or less. In fact Clinton Smith disdained plastic striker fired pistols in articles that he has authored that I have read. Huge proponent of 1911 handguns. I could be wrong.

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'THE HYPNOTIZED NEVER LIE"

The question is not to the weight or smoothness of a trigger, it is, did the shooter modify it incorrectly thus creating a situation where something resulted that should not have? Posted in this forum in the last couple of days were at least two different members that had put in aftermarket trigger parts in their M&P's that they stated caused a second unplanned discharge on the recovery shot. Shooter error maybe, but I would like to be the lawyer in a case like that. As a RSO and bullseye competitor, I have seen two 1911's either go full auto or double fire in the hands of champion bullseye shooters. Parts failures or touchy triggers, the law may not care. I am not trying to start an argument or stop people from buying aftermarket parts. As I stated, I have far more guns with trigger work than not. I am just asking what can happen. Maybe the people that can answer this question best are, Apex, Powder River, Springer, or Volquartzen.

Depends on the manufacture and model, but the average is around 5-6 pounds. I agree and mentioned the SA pull on a 1911 and a DAO pull on others guns in my earlier posts. Stock trigger pull weights can vary from 3-20 pounds +/- on many guns.

From an earlier poster talking about a trial that involved a sawed off shotgun. Not only was the guy in possession of a firearm when he wasn't suppose to be, but the modification done to the shotgun was illegal since he had no stamp to do so. Smoothing out or lightening a trigger pull slightly is not illegal , possessing an illegal NFA item when your not suppose to have a firearm in the first place sure is though.

Honestly, its an apples to oranges comparison... The 1911 is a totally different design and has other safety features (thumb, grip safeties). You are also comparing design differences to "home brew mods". Sorry, not the same thing. BTW, my 1911s have stock triggers too.

In most cases, I seriously doubt trigger mods will cause legal issues in the aftermath of a justified defensive shooting. They could though, and the stock M&P trigger is plenty good enough for a defensive pistol for the majority of users.

The key is

Does it give the other attorney anything at all to try and turn the jury against you?

Think of it this way, the prosecutor could spend an extra 2 days because you modified your gun. He could go after the 'accidental' shooting because you lightened your trigger, he could go after the 'careless shooter', he could go after the 'reckless man who knows more than the manufacturer'.

Either way, when lawyers spend time discussing your case, it costs you a LOT of money.

I believe it is best to leave it stock or have the factory modify it. I also took the mag safety out of one of my carry guns, so I'm not as clean as I could be.

Do any cops lighten their triggers? Will their departments authorize it?

I guess none of you guys have had the pleasure of living in the People's Republic of Massachusetts where all of our newer guns come with 10+ lbs triggers.

I will say again 4 to 4.5 lb triggers are hardly hair triggers or considered a competition race gun.

After market parts like the Apex hard sear and UTB took my Shield from 6.8 lbs to 4.3 lbs. Apex springs took my j frame from 11.7 lbs to 7.9 lbs.. Both mods improve accuracy.My Glocks are at 4.4 4.6 and 4.5 lbs. With 3.5 rocket connectors and polished internals and a 6lb striker spring.
I would not carry my shield or any firearm that I have not completely tested with at least 300 to 500 rounds thru it and over 150 on rapid fire mode.

In my opinion 1st shot accuracy is paramount in SD situation and knowing what the capabilities of yourself and the weapon will do.

The effect of Adrenaline dump in a critical situation varies with each individual and know one knows what the effect will be in any situation.

In 35 years of shooting I have not come across a hand gun with a 20 lb trigger pull. I would not carry that gun because in my opinion It would be more dangerous to fire a handgun with that extreme a trigger pull than one with a 4 lb. Trigger, Simply due to the inherent in accuracy that would result for most shooters with that heavy a pull for all but the most accomplished shooters. My shield has 3 mechanical safeties so I don't buy the apples and oranges comparing a 1911 vs striker fired weapons in an SD situations.

We have been taking about trigger weights and moded guns here. Most 1911's In SA mode I have fired have a pull of under 4 pounds. The heaviest I have encountered was my issue 1911 I was issued in the military. For what its worth I was a RS NCO for more than 3 years and small arms repair specialist while serving in the military.

As for the remark on the NFA shot gun nothing I posted suggested a less than legal 18.5 inch barrel.

I will reitterate that a DA's political motivations and the handgun LAWS in the STATE where you live have more to do with the potential liabilities you face than the modification of your firearm with a justifiable shoot.

Stopping a threat with the fewest shots fired is the highest priority one should have in a SD situation , not worrying of what caliber, trigger weight , what sights you use (laser , night sights) you have available. If you have to worry about anything it should be if you are using a weapon to stop an uninstigated threat SD soon as possible.

I pity those who live in places a criminals rights are more important than our constitutional rights and the God given right to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those that would do us harm.

I pray that I never have to use my weapon for that purpose.


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As many above have said it's not an issue of legality, it's an issue of credibility and intent in court.

If it's alleged to be an accidental shooting, you could have problems if you lightened the trigger. If the gun is altered in such a way (various and up to interpretation) that it makes it easier for the opposing council to paint you as a vigilante or mall ninja, you could have problems.

If your simply smoothing out the trigger and lightening it to a "reasonable degree" I don't see how it could come into play.

My personal preference is to have a heavier, yet smooth trigger on my carry gun. But if I was in a situation where I needed to defend myself, and all I had was my competition M&P with me, I wouldn't have any concern defending that in court.

Fist one that comes to mind is a Nagant revolver. If I remember correctly, the DA pull is around 20lbs and the SA is around 12lbs. Surplus revolver yes, but still in the category.

1st Gen Sigma was close to 20 lbs ! Worst trigger in the last 25 years .

We're talking about lawyers here, and you guys are trying to bring common sense into the picture???

OJ Simpson walked. Where was the common sense there?

I could see a snake, um, I mean, prosecutor, bring up the fact that you had a 4lb trigger. And he'd mention that the factory had originally installed a 10lb trigger. He'd show that police use a 10lb trigger. He'd demonstrate the feel of a 10lb trigger. He'd bring up history and events pertaining to the 10lb trigger and why it was determined by S&W or whoever to make the trigger a 10lb pull.

Then he'd show how a 4lb trigger requires almost 1/3rd of the force to fire the gun. He'd show that in a high stress situation that your finger may inadvertently stray to the trigger. He'd have psychoanalysts with graphs and charts explain the human reaction to stress, and prove that under stress your body may not operate exactly as you have trained for years. He'd explain heart rate and tunnel vision and twitchy muscles and short term memory loss.... He may even show examples of people under stress trying to gauge how hard they are pulling on a trigger...

All he really has to do is put some doubt in the minds of 12 soccer moms and convince them that you have a million dollars in insurance that will cover this very type of 'accident' that came about because you modified your trigger pull to make it 'easier' for you to shoot your gun, regardless of what the manufacturer has determined is a safe amount of force required to operate the gun.

Maybe the soccer moms decide to make everyone happy and award the plaintiff half a million thinking your insurance will pay it so nobody really loses.... But in reality you just lost a civil case, opened yourself up for more lawsuits and probably can't carry a gun or get insurance.

And you don't think this can happen in America?

You make a good point about how a lawyer can manipulate something to their advantage, but it still comes down to deliberately pulling the trigger in self defense in fear of one's own life and/or the life of their family, not an accidental discharge.

This is why one of the better firearm rules to remember is to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire. Grant it, competition style pulls should be kept on competition guns but a 4lb or above trigger pull is far from it and is at the beginning of a duty pull weight.

I was a sworn Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County Oregon.
Our SOP's authorized 3.5Lbs triggers. Mostly to accommodate 1911's and 3.5 Lbs Glocks. After market 3.5 Lbs triggers installed by department authorized gunsmiths were also permitted.

We were a very "gunny" department however. I believe the first in the state to pull shotguns from cars and replace them with AR's about 25 years ago. Glock's were issued, but most any high quality firearm was blessed upon request. I sometimes qualified with a Wilson Combat as one of my two off duty's that had a 3.5Lbs trigger.

Emory

Massachusetts does impose such a thing on new firearms. In NY we are not allowed to modify our duty firearms or batons. My Department, at least.

Thread has significantly expanded from legality of aftermarket triggers to civil court defenses about negligent discharges. Some suggestions may advance this thread.

1. Hire a better lawyer than the other guy
2 Keep you finger off the trigger unless you face a real threat.
3. Keep a stock 20lb trigger on your gun to avoid ND. would be a good idea to have your trigger altered to at least 20 lbs.. Best not alter anything on you gun. Keep factory sights , grips springs, never ever put a light or laser on your handgun. Extension of the premise that making alterations could increase your liability.
4. Live in a state that is not a may issue state.
5. In a criminal trial the burden of proof lies with the prosecution not the defense. Which is you. See item 1.
6. Never ever double tap. The second shot would open you up to being accused of being a blood thirsty psycopath.
7 Never carry more than one round in your gun.
8. Never carry a gun without at least 3 manual safetys.
9. Never have a round chambered.
10. Just don't carry a gun.

If you follow all of the above chances are you will never be prosecuted or sued but you may be dead.

Talk about chicken little. Peace out!


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While I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next guy, let's go over some of these points rationally....

I'm under the impression that if I'm forced to pull my weapon to defend life and limb, then I have every intention of using deadly force and pull the trigger. I don't wish or desire to hurt anyone at any time, however if I am put into that situation by someone who intends to do me harm then that person has brought the results of his actions on himself. End result, I'm going home at the end of the day and dead bad guys don't tell stories in court.

As far as modified triggers are concerned, I have upgraded all my M&P firearms except the 22lr with Apex Tactical components. I use them for sports shooting, home defense, ccw, and on standby for the potential zombie invasion.

Most shooters are taught that until you acquire your target your finger remains on the slide. Your finger does not go onto the trigger until you have the intent to shoot. I also understand that anything can and could happen in the heat of the moment and yes some shooter may have an AD. The lawyers can talk all day over this, but again when it comes down to it...

The bad guy put himself in a situation and created his own results.

Just my two cents...

S&W M&P FS 9/357/40/40PRO/22LR

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M&P 40, M&P 40C,

I was told in more than one class I've took to keep your carry gun stock and NEVER carry re-loads. ALWAYS carry/use same ammo as local LEO's. And,if you have to shoot. Shoot to kill.

Like lost Lake said. Be prepaired to be "eatin' alive in court", spend HUGE $$$$ and also realize your life will never be the same. And those famous last words over and over from mommy & family "he was such a nice ......" reguardless of how bad a dirt bag they actually were.