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  #51  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:13 AM
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Look up the long long thread in m4carbine.net
and you will be able to get discussed issues.

I would say that there is a large difference between shooting my M&P9 and M&P45. I have even sent mine back to S&W and they said it was within their operating margins.
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  #52  
Old 07-16-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martimus View Post
Out of curiousity, has anyone tried swapping an after-market barrel into a M&P 9FS with accuracy issues? I know that S&W has "supposedly" resolved the issue for some individual owners by swapping barrels... and I know that some third party barrels are considered as good or better than factory barrels... but has anybody tried doing this to resolve this particular issue?
I'm waiting for APEX to get their Apex/Barstow barrel into production and I plan on picking one up.
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  #53  
Old 07-16-2012, 11:54 AM
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I'm assuming you are shooting jacketed bullets ... make sure the rifling on your M&P9 are not fouled by copper.

If rifling is pretty much filled up, there's not enough grip on the bullet so you are essentially shooting on smooth bore (with no rifling), ending up with a highly unstable bullet. Same thing if you are shooting lead.

Your regular Hoppe's #9 don't remove lead or copper fouling much.
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  #54  
Old 07-16-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthury View Post
I'm assuming you are shooting jacketed bullets ... make sure the rifling on your M&P9 are not fouled by copper.

If rifling is pretty much filled up, there's not enough grip on the bullet so you are essentially shooting on smooth bore (with no rifling), ending up with a highly unstable bullet. Same thing if you are shooting lead.

Your regular Hoppe's #9 don't remove lead or copper fouling much.
How much ammo would it take to foul up the barrel?

I have a 1911 with over 4k of 45 acp and a M&P9 with over 2k through it with mostly plated bullets. So far i dont see any issues on either pistol with regards to accuracy or copper/lead in the barrel rifling.
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  #55  
Old 07-17-2012, 05:24 PM
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Default Hey Lee...

I usually try to stay positive, but geezzzz, please understand that there are experienced shooters posting about the accuracy issues of the full size M&P 9mm. This is real.
Congrats on having 4 guns that shot consistently. Some of us aren't experiencing that. I received a new barrel for mine, purchased in May, and went from unable to group, unable to keep 5 shots on the paper at 25 yds (benched and bagged), to geting 4-5 inch groups at 25 yds. I still get the occasional unexplained flyer. And anyone who wants to get pissy about shooting out to 25 yds, well, I'm not going to try to explain it to you, you don't want to hear it. (For some shooters, that is the Gold Standard of measured accuracy. That doesn't mean we are practicing to shoot defensively at 25 yds, unless required during a drill or shooting station).


As far as proven design.... It is my understanding that there were changes made to the barrel production when the compact was introduced. So if that is true, the proven design was altered.

As far as QC, my son is an engineer for Micro VU, which makes optical scanning equipment for QC inspection of parts put into production. Used in many, many industries. This is what S&W needs, to pull parts out of a production run to check if they meet the specs of the "Proven Design" benchmark. There are a lot of variables that can change during a production run of a part.

What I can tell you is that the replacement barrel that I received has a much tighter fit to the slide. Hard to really tell how it is interacting with the locking block.
Bottom line, it shoots better.... dramatically better. I don't think I changed very much while I waited for the gun to return from S&W. Infact, I did not fire a single round in any handgun while I awaited its return.

Cw

Last edited by cwallace; 07-17-2012 at 06:48 PM.
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  #56  
Old 07-26-2012, 12:52 PM
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Well I got my FS M&P 9 back from S&W today for the second time and the paperwork now says that the barrel has been replaced and meets spec. We'll see soon enough if the problem has been corrected.
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  #57  
Old 07-27-2012, 08:30 AM
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"As far as QC, my son is an engineer for Micro VU, which makes optical scanning equipment for QC inspection of parts put into production. Used in many, many industries. This is what S&W needs, to pull parts out of a production run to check if they meet the specs of the "Proven Design" benchmark. There are a lot of variables that can change during a production run of a part."

Anyone with any QC credentials will tell you that a study of the defective items and an on-site audit/examination of the process producing the item are required to make ANY assertion about what is required to fix the problem.-Dick
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  #58  
Old 07-27-2012, 05:15 PM
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Default Regarding QC...

Agreed! Simply dealing with each gun sent in and resolving it's issue does not address the source of the problem. Only S&W has the statics of how many sent in, how resloved.... and then take that info and decide how to solve the problem in manufacturing and production. Otherwise they will continue to fix guns until the cows come home.

Cw
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  #59  
Old 07-28-2012, 07:05 AM
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2" groups at 25 yards?

I am very jealous.

I can't focus on a 2" circle at 75 feet much less hit it 5 times!

Karn-sarn whippersnappers *mumble grumble*
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  #60  
Old 07-28-2012, 07:49 AM
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Some of the information presented on the suspected accuracy issues has been quite interesting.

Several months ago I picked up a M&P9 for a screaming deal at a local pawn shop (scared me that I could actually find a deal at this particular pawn show. In hindsight I'm starting to wonder if the screaming deal was offered for a reason?). Took it to the range and found that at 15 yards it was shooting a good 3-inches to the right of POA. Quadruple checked my grip, my stance, tried closing one eye, spent a couple hours with an instructor I know, etc. I probably tried every logical and illogical thing I could possible try to determine the cause. Tried alternating with another pistol but while the other pistol shot to POA, the M&P9 shot 3-inches to the right of POA.

I replaced the stock sights on the M&P which marginally improved things but I was still shooting to the right of POA. Out of curiousity and frustration, I ordered a replacement M&P9 barrel from Brownells. Not exactly what I wanted to be spending my limited savings on, but I needed to know what was going on. Installed the new barrel and went to the range. My M&P is now shooting at POA. Re-installed the old barrel in the M&P - 3-inches to the right of POA. Replaced the new barrel - shooting at POA.

While this experiment was by no means scientific and is certainly not conclusive, I suspect that I'm going to keep the new barrel in my M&P. In looking at the rifling of the old barrel I can't see anything out of the ordinary. That said I'm no gunsmith so I make no guarantees that I'd even know what to look for.
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  #61  
Old 07-28-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikie View Post
Does this accuracy issue vary with caliber? Is the M&P45 more consistent than the M&P9s and 40s?
I have a MP45c that is very accurate , I have been very impressed.Thats why I started the thread, I was considering a 9mm.
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  #62  
Old 07-28-2012, 08:32 AM
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I want to thank the forum and all members who replied to the thread. Has been very helpful and informative. I hope Nakano will update us on his new barrel...
My .45 has been excellent in every way, still hoping to add a 9mm. I believe with threads such as this, we'll get a fix. The M&P line of pistols are way too promising to allow for an inaccurate 9mm!
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  #63  
Old 07-28-2012, 08:39 AM
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Yes, the M&P 9's have accuracy issues. S&W knows this and they have begun to change their barrels. I bought a Pro-Series 4.25 inch barrel last year and it sucked at distances beyond 15 yards. I read this article by Hilton Yam and decided to change my barrel to a KKM precision, which is a drop-in barrel...no smithing required.

25 yard group (10 shots) with factory barrel:



25 yard group (10 shots) with KKM barrel:

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  #64  
Old 07-28-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcamp View Post
I want to thank the forum and all members who replied to the thread. Has been very helpful and informative. I hope Nakano will update us on his new barrel...
My .45 has been excellent in every way, still hoping to add a 9mm. I believe with threads such as this, we'll get a fix. The M&P line of pistols are way too promising to allow for an inaccurate 9mm!
I will defiantly update everyone on how the new barrel performs. I plan on using 3 weights and at least 4 different brands of ammo next range trip which will either be today or tomorrow the latest.
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  #65  
Old 07-30-2012, 09:06 PM
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Shot the M&P with the stock recoil spring and below are the best results. All shooting was done at 15 yards.

WWB 115gr.


PDX-1 124gr. +P


HST 124gr. +P


To be honest it's nothing special, but it's way better than what I was getting with the old barrel. I went from a 10" group at 15 yards to what you see above. I've already sent in the gun twice and got a barrel on the second trip so I'm not going to bother with it again since I think this is as good as it's going to get. I'll just throw it in the back of the safe and wait for Apex.

I'll throw the stiffer recoil spring back in there next range trip but that won't be for awhile. All I've been doing with this gun is using up ammo for test purposes only and it's time to shoot my other 9mms until Apex comes up with something to make it somewhat decent.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 07-30-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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  #66  
Old 07-30-2012, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
Shot the M&P with the stock recoil spring and below are the best results. All shooting was done at 15 yards.

WWB 115gr.


PDX-1 124gr. +P


HST 124gr. +P


To be honest it's nothing special, but it's way better than what I was getting with the old barrel. I went from a 10" group at 15 yards to what you see above. I've already sent in the gun twice and got a barrel on the second trip so I'm not going to bother with it again since I think this is as good as it's going to get. I'll just throw it in the back of the safe and wait for Apex.

I'll throw the stiffer recoil spring back in there next range trip but that won't be for awhile. All I've been doing with this gun is using up ammo for test purposes only and it's time to shoot my other 9mms until Apex comes up with something to make it somewhat decent.
Was that benched or standing unsupported?
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  #67  
Old 07-31-2012, 01:26 AM
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Standing unsupported
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  #68  
Old 07-31-2012, 02:16 AM
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What exactly would be considered GOOD accuracy. Below is a target I fired at 25 yards from a sitting position (leaning against the bumper of my car). It's a 15 shot group shooting 115gr Blazer Brass. This is a pretty typical group and I would like to be able to close it up if possible. The orange dot is 2" and the black is a little under 4". Is this about the limit of the MP's abilities or can it be more finely tuned to shoot tighter groups. I have been thinking that maybe with sights allowing a 6 o'clock hold since the front sight completely covers the black at 25 yards making most shots a best guess. The two stray shots in the white are the result of my own poor trigger control.


Last edited by 1sailor; 07-31-2012 at 02:20 AM.
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  #69  
Old 07-31-2012, 02:47 AM
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My other guns get tighter groups, but according to the tech/smith/whatever they are that I talked to, the FS 9mm M&P's are supposed to get 3" groups at 25 yards. I'd find that acceptable if I could get 3" at 15 yards. Honestly, my Shield shoots like a laser when compared to what's on my 3 targets above.
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  #70  
Old 07-31-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
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What exactly would be considered GOOD accuracy. Below is a target I fired at 25 yards from a sitting position (leaning against the bumper of my car). It's a 15 shot group shooting 115gr Blazer Brass. This is a pretty typical group and I would like to be able to close it up if possible. The orange dot is 2" and the black is a little under 4". Is this about the limit of the MP's abilities or can it be more finely tuned to shoot tighter groups. I have been thinking that maybe with sights allowing a 6 o'clock hold since the front sight completely covers the black at 25 yards making most shots a best guess. The two stray shots in the white are the result of my own poor trigger control.


if that is your 25 yard group then I'd say that's "good" enough. When you are shooting a gun and it continually shoots what looks like a shotgun pattern you need to find the issue, whether it be you or the gun. In my case it was the gun. Replacing the factory barrel with the KKM barrel fixed the issue for me.
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  #71  
Old 07-31-2012, 03:28 PM
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I have two M&Ps in 9mm, a full size I purchased in Jan 12 and a 5" barrel Pro purchased Jun 12. I shoot three USPSA type matches each month and so far I have not had a problem with either of these two pistols in those matches.
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  #72  
Old 07-31-2012, 05:12 PM
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Hilton Yam had a good good discussion about about this issue over on the 10-8 Performance blog.

(Yes, there are other forums !)
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  #73  
Old 07-31-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLawman View Post
Hilton Yam had a good good discussion about about this issue over on the 10-8 Performance blog.

(Yes, there are other forums !)
According to that blog, the new production factory barrel got a 2.5" group at 25 yards which is better than the aftermarket barrels that were tested. Not sure what magic unicorn horn that M&P barrel came from ,but I wish I had it.
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  #74  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:35 PM
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I think that Nakano's frustration is quite understandable. If I had a 9 that shot like that I would b enraged. Totally unaccepatable from a legend like S&W. They need to hook him up with something from the Performance Center now. A companys reputation is everything. Alas, I wont be adding a FS9mm now. I'm disappointed.
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  #75  
Old 08-01-2012, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcamp View Post
I think that Nakano's frustration is quite understandable. If I had a 9 that shot like that I would b enraged. Totally unaccepatable from a legend like S&W. They need to hook him up with something from the Performance Center now. A companys reputation is everything. Alas, I wont be adding a FS9mm now. I'm disappointed.
Thanks for the response. I really like the M&P series and if it wasn't for the accuracy, it would be spot on perfect. The Shield I have is now my current EDC and will honestly stay there as a permanent all year carry gun. The BG380 I have is the pocket option when IWB cannot be achieved, again a permanent piece.

I really don't expect handouts from any company and I honestly just think they need to look into what aftermarket companies are already looking to produce to fix this issue. They replaced my barrel but not the locking block which is exactly what Apex is looking to make.

10-8 mentions the older barrels working well with 147gr ammo which I also shot at the range but it was worse than what you see in the three target pictures which is why I didn't post it. The S&W tech told me that they work best with 124gr. +P ammo. I tried 2 different brands in 124gr. +P so obviously it means these issues are very random and it's time S&W goes through their tooling and processes to make things a tad more consistent.

I'm not ready to hang up my FS M&P 9mm yet, I just need a company like Apex to make it right unfortunately. I'll say this, if every single other aspect of the gun was not perfect, I would already be rid of it, but I want it to work.

I should of brought one of my Beretta 92s and P89 for target comparison pictures using the same ammo. I've gone through well over 600 rounds (many of which were premium HP) which is easily 575 rounds more than what I've ever needed to get used to a new platform.

Bottom line, I'm not putting down the M&P series since the .40s and 45s seem to be GTG and many of the 9mm models, but it seems mine is something S&W just can't fix.
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  #76  
Old 08-01-2012, 03:52 PM
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I just got my M&P FS 9mm back from S&W.They said it was in-spec and no repairs needed. Sorry S&W but my M&P cant hold a candle to even my Norinco #213 9mm Tokerov as far as accuracy.
The best I can do is about 4" at 7 yards,and it just opens up from there. Trying to hit anything at 25 yards or further is a waste. All my other 9mm platforms are fine and I'm happy with the accuracy from SIG P226s,H&K P7,Beretta 92FS,BHP,Glock 17.
I tried several brands of 115 and 124 grain standard pressure FMJ and accuracy is poor.I did not have any 147gr ammo.

Over at the 10-8 forums they tested the new KKM barrel and accuracy improved,but why should I spend $200 on a new barrel.The stock barrel was lame.It seems to be hit or miss if you get a decent pistol or not.
Well I'm off to buy a XDM 5.25 9mm,my XDM .45 is a tack driver and extremely reliable so far.
This is the second stinker I purchased from S&W(BG38 revo).
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  #77  
Old 08-01-2012, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodinal220 View Post
Well I'm off to buy a XDM 5.25 9mm,.
If youre gonna buy an XDm 9 the price difference on a trade would be worth just getting the KKM barrel. The KKM barrel will not disappoint you , I'm very pleased.

If you are LEO/Mil call KKM and you will get a small discount. It's not much but every little bit helps.
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  #78  
Old 08-01-2012, 10:59 PM
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If youre gonna buy an XDm 9 the price difference on a trade would be worth just getting the KKM barrel. The KKM barrel will not disappoint you , I'm very pleased.

If you are LEO/Mil call KKM and you will get a small discount. It's not much but every little bit helps.
Is the KKM a true drop-in? I'm not sure if I want to try a barrel or wait for the Apex locking block as a cheaper option.
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
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Is the KKM a true drop-in? I'm not sure if I want to try a barrel or wait for the Apex locking block as a cheaper option.
Yes, it was a true drop-in part. I did nothing but put some frog lube on the barrel just prior to shooting it.

I too wanted the Bar-sto/Apex barrel along with the locking block, however I grew tired of waiting. I was so pissed about the accuracy I simply put it in the safe and didnt shoot it anymore. I read Hiltons review and looked at my barrel, which profiled like the "new" production ones that S&W was claiming to make. My FS 9 (4.25 inch barrel-Pro Series) was bought new in July 2011. Since then, they reportedly changed the twist rate...that was also mentioned in Hiltons article.

As far as being cheaper...nothing from Bar-Sto is cheap. Even the storm lake barrels are priced about the same as KKM.

Apex was making the barrels for Bar-Sto. I've seen nothing (other than a blog post) on the Bar-Sto or Apex web pages that indicates when the barrels will be ready for sale and nothing about the locking block.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:56 AM
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This has been a great thread. I was in the market for a FS 9mm and was considering the M&P. My issued M&P 40 FS has been great, very accurate, no issues. I have had two M&P 45 Compactís. The gun feels great, but the trigger is just awful and had several magazine problems with springs and followers. I did the same, APEX kits, gunsmiths, etc. The trigger was either too gritty, or to light. I finally picked up a Glock 30 SF. It is boxy feeling, but dead accurate and flawless in execution. I may go with a Glock 17 instead of the M&P 9. I find it hard to believe all the changes to the barrel and issues with accuracy and feeding with different types of ammo with the M&P 9 FS. I still wish S&W would continue with a Third Gen line of metal guns. My 4606-1 is my most reliable and accurate 45 other than the recent Glock purchase. It is frustrating to call S&W customer service and ask for a part on one of my Third Gen guns and they tell me, sorry, that line is obsolete. So much for life time warranty, I guess that only counts if the gun is still in production.
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:17 PM
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So whats the consensus here guys? I ordered a factory 9mm barrel two weeks ago. I'm i going to get the new improved version?
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:42 PM
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So whats the consensus here guys? I ordered a factory 9mm barrel two weeks ago. I'm i going to get the new improved version?
When you say ordered do you mean paid $$$ for? Or is it a customer service replacement?

At the present time I'm not terribly impressed w/S&W's 9mm barrels. If I was paying, I'd be buying a KKM again...and I'd call them back and cancel the order.
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:47 PM
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I'd wait for the barrel to arrive and try it out. As I've gotten more experience with my own the group sizes have tightened considerably. At 25 yards from a sitting position I can pretty consistantly keep my groups below 3" with 10 rds in the mag. If you're not happy you can resell it for a big portion of what you paid for it. Comparing my experiences to others it seems to be a hit or miss kind of thing. I have the old style barrel by the way.
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  #84  
Old 08-02-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
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So whats the consensus here guys? I ordered a factory 9mm barrel two weeks ago. I'm i going to get the new improved version?
I broke down a while back and ordered a barrel for my M&P9 from Brownells. The accuracy of my M&P9 improved significantly after installing that barrel.

I swapped back and forth between barrels to insure that my experience wasn't a fluke. As such I think it prudent to say that either I had a real lemon of a barrel or the new S&W barrels are an improvement over the older ones.
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Old 08-02-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
When you say ordered do you mean paid $$$ for? Or is it a customer service replacement?

At the present time I'm not terribly impressed w/S&W's 9mm barrels. If I was paying, I'd be buying a KKM again...and I'd call them back and cancel the order.
In Canada, there are only a few companies that Import Barrel's and other Firearm related items. So they ordered the Barrel for me and i'll pay before they ship it to me.
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  #86  
Old 08-02-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
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From what I've read it seems to only affect the 9mm. Something about the locking block being not enough of a redesign from the .40 so the physics aren't quite what they need to be.
I've been doing a lot of reading of various posts on this issue and it seems the accuracy of any particular M&P 9mm is luck of the draw. Some have decent accuracy, while others cant keep it on the paper at 10yds.

From what I've read, I'm starting to believe that how tightly the locking block (aka barrel hood) fits into the slide notch determines the accuracy potential of that particular barrel/slide combination. If that is typically smaller than a .40 version, I can see that affecting using 9mm barrel in a .40 slide but I don't know why that would be a factor with a stock 9mm as it should be machined to fit correctly.

The other lockup issue I hear talked about is that the 9mm unlocks too soon and the bullet is then thrown high by the barrel pivoting down. I think this might be what bharner is talking about above and what others say a fix is being worked on by a popular aftermarket vendor.

So with the cost of buying a new gun, a trigger improvement, a couple other parts and a barrel, with no guarantee it will still shoot accurately, it isn't unreasonable to just go buy another brand and not have to monkey with it.

Last edited by 125JHP; 08-02-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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  #87  
Old 08-05-2012, 11:08 PM
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Oh no.....
I had just about decided to buy an XDm instead of taking my chances with a Pro that may or might not need a lot of aftermarket mods to shoot to my expectations.

My wife went with me to the weekend IDPA match and got to talking with one of the gals and now she wants a M&P 9 because if fits her hand so well!.... now what do I do if it turns out to be a crappy shooter?

Is there a way to maybe measure the barrel hood to slide fit with feeler gauges or some other in-store measurement spec-check to hopefully get a good one?
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  #88  
Old 08-06-2012, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padawan View Post
So whats the consensus here guys? I ordered a factory 9mm barrel two weeks ago. I'm i going to get the new improved version?

I got a factory drop in 9mm barrel for my M&PC 357sig about a month ago.

I am very happy with it, it is very accurate.
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  #89  
Old 08-06-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by S&WOkie View Post
I got a factory drop in 9mm barrel for my M&PC 357sig about a month ago.

I am very happy with it, it is very accurate.
I guess S&W is shut down until Aug 13th, so i should receive the barrel near the end of the month. I'll give a range report after i get it.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcamp View Post
I'm picking up on tidbits concerning accuracy issues with the 9mm, searches aren't yielding much valuable info tho.
Are there any issues?
The link below is to some targets shot with my M&P Pro
with the factory barrel & after market barrel

This was done standing @ about 15 yards -- rapid fire.
We shoot action pistol defence - shoot double tap , move -- shoot while moving
theory being if you stop your history.

wished to go into depth but this was a one time for each type bullet due to a strong hand injury .
after I get my surgery will redo the test when I heal and the after market barrel gets broke in . & with 124 gr. bullets also.

Pictures by balloons61 - Photobucket

FYI
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  #91  
Old 08-06-2012, 05:49 PM
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I'm new to this forum. I read everything in this post but am not a gunsmith so I don't understand everything.
I bought a S&W M&P 9mm full size about 6 weeks ago. I ran a box of American Eagle 115 gr through it at 10 and 15 yards. It shot 5" low and 5" left for myself. I let my friend shoot it. He shot the same.
I called S&W and they said to send it back. I got it back on 8/1/12. S&W put a lower front sight on the gun. I ran a second box of the same ammo through it. It sprayed all over the 8" target at 15 yards. I shot it a 10 yards and was able to put 5 shots in a 2" group after adjusting the rear sight.I could not understand why it sprayed all over the target at 15 yards. Each time I was shooting supported.
I changed Ammo to Winchester 115 gr solid points. Again, I shot it supported and could not hold a group at 15 yards.
Correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of guys are having the same problem. Can't the S&W M&P 9mm hold a group at 15 yards?
What should I do?
I previously had a S&W Model 15 38spl revolver and could hold a 2" group at 25 yards.
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  #92  
Old 08-07-2012, 05:54 PM
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If you mention what you didn't understand someone might be able to explain it to you. There aren't any stupid questions here, except the ones I ask.

I've searched around the various forums for answers to this accuracy question and haven't yet come across a thread that explains it. If anyone knows, they aren't spreading the news with details. Another issue you will hear quoted often is something about lockup timing - again without specifics.

So I have come up with my own theory but of course cant prove it due to lack of data and a lot of the supporting comments are hearsay. It goes like this...

Lockup refers to when the barrel and slide are fully forward and ready to fire. The parts involved are the recoil spring for tension and the barrel hood extension that fits in a recess at the slide breech face. The barrel and slide should be held in place together fairly tightly.
How well the barrel and slide fit together, in the same repeatable alignment shot after shot, will have a lot in determining that guns accuracy or lack of it. For whatever reason (by design, manufacturing tolerances, different subcontractors etc) the barrel and slide can have slop from an accumulation of tolerances.
I think that the more play, slop, gap there is between the barrel and slide at the lockup recess, the less accurate the gun will shoot because the barrel will be pointing slightly different than the sights each shot. Some people have reported using a stiffer recoil spring has helped a little. YMMV

If you slowly pull your slide back you'll see the rear of the barrel slides downward and the muzzle tips upward. This is the process of unlocking. At some point the slide will continue rearward extracting the shell case, stripping another off the magazine and feeding it into the chamber and the barrel will slide back up into locked position, all thanks to the recoil spring.

Under the barrel, (below the chamber block) is a slot that fits in a bar in the frame, that cams the rear of the barrel down as the slide travels rearward. The shape of this slot determines the lock/unlock timing of the barrel cam action. You would probably have to have an animated 3-D engineering model and to understand and/or modify anything to do with this area. I think this is what people are referring to when they say the 9mm M&P can unlock early. If the barrel unlocks early, the barrel starts to tip upward before the bullet has exited the barrel, thus POI high on the target. This typical would happen with heavier bullets like 124 & 147gr. If shooting 115 or fast 90's brings the POI down then early unlocking might be the problem. Fixing this would take complete re-engineering of the system.

In a previous post I mentioned I had measured several barrel dimensions between a OEM 9mm and OEM .40 barrel and the only difference I could find was the width of the barrel hood.

My 9mm measures .397" and the 40 is .427" - a difference of .030."
The corresponding recess in my slide is .430", the .40 barrel has only .003" clearance and locks up tight. So, the 9mm has .033" of slop to move around in which gives me 2.5" groups at 10 yds out of my compact - not a tack driver but acceptable for social work.

I also tried approaching this from another angle. With each barrel assembled in the gun and the slide closed, I used a blade feeler gauge to measure the gaps where ever I could get in around the hood/slide fit and also between the chamber block and the left inner side of the slide.

The gap between the front of the chamber and slide was the same with both barrels (.006") and the gap at the rear of the barrel (at loaded indicator hole) was also about the same. There wasn't any front to back play. I couldn't get my gauge into the L/R sides of the hood, so instead I used my fingers to push the chamber block left and right to get the maximum lockup gap I could in both directions and measured the change in gap between the left inner-slide and the chamber block.

On the .40 it was .008" and with the 9mm barrel installed it was .017"

This was an initial quick look at ways to explain accuracy issues that seem to occur with some 9mm's and I did use a 9mm factory barrel in a 40 slide so it wasn't a matched set. You might also note that my second set of numbers don't match with my first set and you would be right. That doesn't mean were not on the right track.

Since the accuracy seems to be random and luck of the draw, I'm trying to come up with a reasonable method to check the gun with a feeler gauge in the store before you purchase it, to increase the odds of getting a good one.

All of this is just my guess of what might be going on. Measure your own barrels and see what you come up with. Sorry for the long post... already I had my nap today.

Last edited by 125JHP; 08-07-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:02 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I guess that I don't know what I'm going to do with this gun. I probably should call the factory again. I can't see buying a new gun and having to put an aftermarket barrel, new sights, recoil spring, and a trigger job on it just to get the accuracy of what it should be doing right out of the box. Do you agree?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:56 PM
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No problems with my 9 and 9c. both are accurate and easy to shoot. they are easy to use. there are have never been any issues whatsoever.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk Hunter View Post
Thanks for the reply. I guess that I don't know what I'm going to do with this gun. I probably should call the factory again. I can't see buying a new gun and having to put an aftermarket barrel, new sights, recoil spring, and a trigger job on it just to get the accuracy of what it should be doing right out of the box. Do you agree?
I agree 100%
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:09 AM
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Wow, I'm so glad I have one that keeps good groups. Although it could be better at distance, I think it's mostly me. Even after installing an Apex Tactical FSS & Trigger kit I still get the occasional flyer. Now, my groups have really tightened up after the kit install but damnit if those flyers don't urk me when they show up! I wish I could afford to test it more, or practice more so at this point I'm going to chalk it up to my own fault. Come to think of it, I used to practice w/ a Ruger MkIII Target model and I could make a pretty good ragged hole at 7 yrds. Can't keep it that tight on my M&P9 FS...
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:10 AM
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I have an M&P9 (standard) and it shoots where I point it. So, it's accurate - whether I hit the bullseye or not.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:00 PM
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As I said in another thread. My M&P9 Full shoots very well, way better than me. At 15 yards I'm shooting 2" groups which is better to what I get with my SR9c and equal to my Glock 19.

Last edited by danysw; 08-08-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:27 AM
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Guys, the issue here is that some recent production 9s shoot well, others shoot less well/really bad.

Now, some of this could be explained as tolerance stack. For every dimension, there is a nominal dimension and a tolerance +/- of allowable variance. If you get a slide with breech area tolerances on the maximum limit and a barrel on the mimimum limit, accuracy is going to suffer.

Another possibility is that there could be one machine doing barrels that are out of tolerance or (if S&W isn't rifling their own barrel blanks) a supplier that is 'having issues'. The gent that reports a barrel throwing rounds 5" out to one side suggests that particular barrel has a bore that doesn't travel down the center of the barrel. This is something that very occasionally happens (although I'd really like to know how!) in a wide variety of handgun brands. Years later I recall a Colt 38 Super barrel whose chamber was 0.040 off center to the left.

The unlocking early claim was discussed in another thread. Any movement of the barrel breech is not unlocking. Only downward movement in a vertical plane is an unlocking action and that requires about 3/16" movement of the slide. Or at least it did in B-F serial series pistols.

Looking at that article on the 10-8 site, the original rifling spec has produced excellent accuracy in other model S&W pistols, that indicates that rifling twist has minimal significance in difference. However, it would appear that S&W bean counters decided to use one machine program to do all barrel profiles after development of the compact, regardless of end use. That would seem to be an error. The chamber area profiles of the original design are very similar to those used in the 1911, the P35 Browning and other pistols like the earlier S&W designs. These didn't have significant accuracy issues (or any issues-the nattering about stress risers to the contrary). It would seem that the easiest answer would be to return to the orginial barrel profile for full length and plus length pistols. There is another possible mechanical issue though: is there also a difference in locking blocks? Kinda doubtful, but slightly possible.

BTW, I can't speak for S&W, but one of the things we (plant maintenance) did during shutdown when I worked in a factory was a whole lot of machine tool rebuilding and replacement. Machines identified by QC as producing out of spec parts were taken off line when discovered and brought back into spec before being placed back into production. It would also be a good time to implement a decision to resume production of the old/another barrel profile for other than compact if they feel there is a market driven need that would justify the cost.

Last edited by WR Moore; 08-10-2012 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:44 AM
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I have read this Thread with interest as my wife recently purchased a S&W M&P 9mm.
My background is in Engineering and QC/QA.
First, without the use of a machine rest such as a Ransom, all accuracy testing is really inconclusive and subject to the ability of the shooter and perceptions of the shooter.
Second, all the speculation of the cause of any inaccuracy is meaningless BS without a knowledge of how S&W designs, manufactures and assures thier products, IF thier is a problem to begin with.
I have seen this sort of problem identification and speculation get out of control before on the Internet and result in an 'Urban Legend' that seamingly never dies but get repeated 'ad naseum'.
I have still not seen objective information presented that there is a problem and certainly not any information about causation.-Dick
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