Three months ago I would have said that my MP had accuracy issues. I was raised with revolvers and single action semi-auto's and had a fair amount of experience with both. I considered my skill level to be better than average. I just could not get my MP to group better than about 5" at 25ft and all shots were hitting low. Over time and after making a point of working on my trigger control (my first striker fired gun) and paying close attention to what was going on I started noticing significant improvement in my POI as well as my group sizes. Random flyers have also been reduced to the point of only being an occasional occurance that is probably caused by me. I am not saying that others may not be having gun related problems. But that at least in my case it was more a matter of getting accustomed to shooting a pistol that is unlike any of the others I had owned. I would stll not consider the MP's to be target guns but they were never intended to be. It fares well though against others in a little informal bi-weekly match that a few of us have started up. And shooting rapid fire (something we just started) it does exceptionally well. Especially compared to some of the guys whose pistols were top performers in the slow fire shoots. Eats up a lot of ammo though.

Mr Richard, you raise important points. However, if you read several of the threads on this subject, you'll note I emphasize the role of the user and becoming used to the trigger of the M&P. However, there are several folks who reportedly have examples of the M&P9 that group very well and others which are challenged to hit the proverbial barn wall from inside.

Secondly, while Ransom rests are very interesting and valuable devices, they [per skilled folks who have extensive experience with the devices] have "issues" with poly framed pistols. As a result, testing with a Ransom really indicates very little in this particular case.

Finally, Bar-Sto amoung others, have made successful businesses from the practice of producing barrels somewhat oversize in the breech area to reduce the variability of slide/barrel breech alignment. What possible effect the changes in barrel breech profile of factory barrels may actually have would require comparitive measurement and testing of a statisically significant number of barrels/pistols. While this would be interesting and potentially helpful, it isn't likely to happen unless we can get at least 20 each of accurate/inaccurate pistols in the same place at the same time with the same ammo and appropriate measuring tools.

I also completely agree about the internet and the waves of misinformation.

This all started from one Post by a very dissatisfied owner and resulted in other Posts including this one, " I ordered a M&P9 and now I read about all the accuracy issues. Wonderful!"
As to barrel makers and other add ons, these companies get rich by taking advantage of the fact thier touted improvements cannot objectively be verified but most when adding these improvments subjectively and psychologically perceive an improvement. Not a single semi auto of mine has anything other than its original factory barrel and I have never found the need for an aftermaket barrel for either accuracy issues or feed issues.
So faced with a lack of objective information, what does one do?
If you have an Engineering/Scientific background, you suspect that the information you are supplied with is not based on objective testing and is possibly perception. What you don't do is to immediately determine the problem is real and search for a way to fix the problem. But if your like many and don't have the requisite background to do research and stand your ground with an informed position because you have the credentials to call it a non-problem, you go along with the idea and promulgate the idea.
I don't believe there is a widespread problem or maybe even any problem until I review some objective evidence.-Dick

I think the accuracy issue could be far worse than reported.

I've read several posts in this thread, and many in other threads and forums dismissing the very idea there is a problem because their gun will shoot a 2"-3" group at 7-10 yards.

THAT IS NOT GOOD and if you think you are doing well with that kind of a group you need and instructor. Seriously. Get a good .22 (S&W Mod 41 comes to mind) and an instructor and get back to basics. At 7 yards you should have a sub 1" group off hand.

If we don't go to the range to get better, and shoot to our ability, there are a lot less expensive ways to make loud noises and kick up dust.

If your firearm can't help you improve it's wasting your time.

My M&P9 shoots a 11" group at 22 yards after returning from the factory. They replaced the barrel. My USP .45 shoots a 2" group at 25 yards. Now the HK costs slightly more. But how much ammo do you have to put thru the M&P at $0.30 or more a shot to determine you are wasting your time.

I have no axe to grind, I don't make money from shooting. But I am truly pissed that the money I invested in this piece of junk is wasted and I don't have a 9mm to take to the range. Now how long do I wait to spend more money on it to get it to shoot? It also really pisses me off that a US company would turn out a piece of junk and then ignore it. That's not how my country does things.

I've recently purchased a MP 9FS that also has these accuracy issues.

first, some background, I'm a long time handgunner in NRA Bullseye, International Handgun Metallic Silhouette, and PPC.

So, I have some experience with accuracy testing various handgun platforms.

These are pictures of recent targets at 25 yards. Shot from a supported position.

1st. 115 gr Blaser Brass FMJ
2nd. 124 gr Fiocchi TMJ
3rd. 147 gr. American Eagle with factory recoil spring.
4th. 147 gr. American Eagle with Wolff 24# spring.

a cursory observation would be the heavier bullets work better.
But, I've got S&W revolvers with 1:18 twist barrels that shoot under 1" from this distance.

I'm still deciding how to fix this..


I have an 1880's Belgium .442 Bulldog that shoots that well!!

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Wonder if the crown could contribute?

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The barrel fit is too loose so you cannot improve accuracy without going to a fitted barrel.


C4

__________________
S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

I'm on your waiting list...

Would anyone actually recommend buying a FS M&P 9mm was actually gonna go pick one up today buy now not so sure! Should i just stick with glock gen 3s! I want a range gun to puy alot of rounds down range! Doesnt sound like smith is the company for the job?

Sorry to have to say this but you might want to look at an XDm.

Hard to say about crowns since absent of obvious damage, one can never really be too sure.

I just fired 3 targets with my M&P9L this Wednesday evening. 25 yards, rested, 115 gr Federal AE. Five rounds each.
3-3/4", 3-1/2", 6-1/2".
No shots were "called" on the last target.

I have had similar experiences with this gun as long as I have owned it. I'm not entirely confident of the quality of the ammunition, so I will try again next week with something else, or a couple of somethings else. If I recall correctly, this gun always shot best with Hornady 124 gr FMJ-FN bullets, but even with those, it is erratic.

I agree a new barrel would seem to be indicated, but I think I will try to re-crown the factory barrel since there is nothing to lose. The gun should shoot into 2-1/2" to 3" with good ammunition, to be of any value to me.

For those who say accurate enough, I want the confidence in knowing when the bad guy comes around the barn with a shotgun at 25 yards I won't have to wait till he's 15 yds away to be sure of defensive hits. !!

First, I have to agree with Mr. Richard that internet nail-biting can certainly "snowball." On the other hand, when you have shooters with a lifetime of experience telling you that there is a decided accuracy problem with their randomly purchased M&P9, their stories at least deserve to be considered with respect to their considerable experience.

I did not get to re-crown the barrel of my 9L before I tested it again last evening, but I have done so now and will know more the next time I shoot it. I doubt that there was anything wrong with the barrel crown as it came from S&W. It was a tad rough, but the crown was well centered, probably cut before the barrel was rifled, and it lapped in to a smooth finish very quickly.

Last evening I had limited time and did not get to shoot much, but here are some additional shooting results from my 9L (serial number (MRJ0xxx). Barrel was clean when I started. 5 shots were fired to condition the bore. All measurements are for 5 rounds at 25 yards, from a benchrest:
Federal 9BP / 3.38"
Magtech 124gr FMJ / 4.81"
Rem 124gr JHP handload / 3.44"
Montana Gold 121gr IFP handload / 6"

Both of the handloads are exceptionally accurate in other guns I own. I do not have any concerns about the quality of those cartridges and consider them at least the equal of similar U.S. commercial ammunition I have used. Unfortunately, I did not have time to fire three 5-round groups with each load.

Thinking that the Rem 124gr JHP handload might do better if tested again (that loads has always been exceptionally accurate in many of my guns), I decided to take my time and shoot one 10-round group before the range closed - 7.38"!

This "group" contained four flyers, possibly three and one might have been a slight shooter error. In any case, if those four were subtracted from the results, the resulting 6-round group would have measured 1.81".

Every group mentioned above had what appeared to be 1 or more flyer(s). For instance, the initial group fired with the Remington-bullet handload would have measured 1" were it not for the single flyer that took that group to 3.44". The flyers are not a matter of first- or last-shots.

With due respect to Mr. Richard's legitimate concerns, after over 40-years now of shooting more centerfire handguns than I can recall, I have confidence in my ability to know when I have fired a good target and when I haven't. For some reason, this gun shows signs of potentially being a good shooter, but is erratic and consistently produces flyers. I do not claim to know whether the problem is systemic across a wide number of production guns. I do claim that I expect a gun of this quality and price-level, and certainly one made by a highly respected and long established company like S&W, to shoot with a certain level of precision. Based on my experience with other, similar, production guns from several manufacturers, this gun should average 3-inches or less at 25-yards, 2-1/2" better. This particular gun will not do that with any ammunition I have tried so far.

In looking at the various dimensions of the barrel and slide, there is nothing obvious that indicates one part or the other is substandard. The interior of my barrel does appear to be slightly larger at the chamber end than at the muzzle, somewhere in the area of 0.0005", which I would think would work in favor of accurate shooting as opposed to against it. I do not have gauges to check the length (headspace) and diameter of the chamber itself. All ammunition used would easily drop into my Wilson maximum ammunition gauge.

I did have the chance to speak to the folks at Bar-sto today and while no specific information was forthcoming, they are working on a barrel for the M&P. I have confidence that their product will likely cure the worst of my gun's problems. It will be probably April, 2013, or later, before I will know more about that.

M29, thank you for your observations. They mirror mine with the 9fl.
FYI my muzzle dia is. 006 smaller than the slide opening.

Youre comparing a 9mm striker fire pistol to a .45 ACP hammer fired. As far as the internet is concerned, it could be user end error. You should clearly state if you have experience shooting similar groups with similar pistols. Else, the comparison is moot

BBS1, I take his mention of 2" groups with his USP to indicate his proficency. My personal experience with the MP9 would mirror his..

I get better 25 yd groupings with my Whamm-O slingshot and 3/8" steel balls...

I would think a decently accurate service pistol shod be capable of 3-3.5" groups at 25 yards from a rest. The 11" groups mentioned above would be a decent pattern for a shotgun. I have a 9mm FS that I have not shot a lot. I have shot some plates with it at speed and didn't have trouble hitting them at about 15 yds. I didn't shoot any groups as I knew he gun is not a target grade weapon. Reading this thread has made me concerned enough that I will do some bench testing on my next range visit. My 9mm 1911 will shoot groups around 2" with my cast bullet handloads. I don't expect this kind of accuracy from the M&P but I don't expect 6-12" either. Almost wish I hadn't read this thread

Well, let us know what your gun does with some sort of ordinary ammunition. Really, if my gun shot consistent 3-inch groups, or even 3-1/2", I could probably live with it. Wouldn't be pleased, but might decide to live with it. As is, where one group can be in that area and the very next one is 7" or so, it is hard to have any confidence in the gun. I like the M&P overall. It may actually be worth it to me to spend the money on a new barrel - but I shouldn't have to do that. One way or another, the accuracy thing either has to be resolved or the gun will be finding a new home.

It would be nice to think a "service" grade pistol would shoot 2" groups. In reality, it takes a well tuned 1911 to get those kind of groups most of the time. Many service grade revolvers will give that kind of accuracy. I'll try to see what mine will do and report back. May be time for a range trip this afternoon. If not maybe next weekend.

I have an older M&P9 that has a newer barrel, and it seemed to shoot ok. I was able to accurately, and quickly get A hits on targets within 10 yards at a USPSA shoot. Then one stage the targets around 15-18 yards and I noticed something strange. Out of six silhouette targets I had some very odd hits. I got my only miss on a wide open target and when I went for head shots on another they were way off... I didn't have the best luck shooting the plates either.

I also noticed much closer "groups" from my g19. I am going to have to do some more testing and see what is going on. I already purchased more magazines, but if this thing doesn't shoot very good I am not investing more money into it.

No, he's compareing a USP to a M&P, that alone tells it all!
Hammer fired vs Striker fired doesn't mean squat! I have an old Gen2 Glock 19 that will hold 2.5 @ 25yds with Federal 147gr. American Eagle all day.
Smith should be able to put out an accurate 9mm M&P, just look at there 1911 9mm. Or the old 3rd Gens, they'd shoot! Plus you don't notice this with the .40 or .45 versions, or at least I haven't been hearing about them.
And just so everybody knows, I had a full size M&P9 once, loved it's feel and looks, but it shot lousy, traded it on a 5906 and haven't looked back since. Dale

__________________
"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Exactly. The firing mechanism isn't important. A good shooter can handle either, especially from a rest.

I would not be too quick to excuse M&P40s from the same problems. I have never seen one that shot very well. The .45s may be a reasonably safe bet but all the others are problematic, IMHO.

Of course firing mechanism is important. People tend to shoot better with SA triggers than a stock striker trigger (atleast, in my limited experience.)

That would make it a user issue and not a weapon issue.

Got a chance to go to the range for a brief bit this afternoon. I shot the M&P at 50 feet from a improvised rest. Ammo was my ordinary cast lead reload range fodder. I managed to shoot a couple of 5 shot groups that were definately under 3", probably close to 2.5". Some other groups were larger, and there were some fliers that were not called. The M&P trigger, which I dont find all that bad in shooting plates, etc. isn't very condusive to shooting groups. I think if the gun had a little better trigger the groups would shrink a bit and the fliers would go away. After shooting groups I shot plates for a few minutes. All was well, though the white dot popped out of the front sight. Wonder if S&W will send me a new one?

Called S&W customer service today. They are sending me a new front sight. No questions asked.

The topic seems to have died away a bit () but if anyone is still interested and/or trying to sort out the M&P9 accuracy issue for themselves, I have been doing some more testing since my last post in this thread a week or so ago. I have fired probably four or five more different factory loads since then (none of the really expensive stuff, I do not buy it) and maybe twice that many handloads. All in one gun of course. That's all I have to work with.

I did find one handload with AA7 powder that seemed to indicate my gun might consistently be good for 3-4" at 25 yards. (5-shot groups, starting with 5 in the magazine, the slide locked back, and released by operation of the slide stop.)

So, I guess if you are content to shoot one bullet and one powder, my gun may come within the 4-inch standard someone else seemed to come up with. And it might do fine with the high-dollar stuff. (Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, etc.) I wouldn't know. My gun will never get the $1 a pop stuff, so I don't test with it.

Next week I plan to re-test the AA7 load, just to make sure it does what I think it does in my M&P9L, and also to see what it does in a couple of my other 9mm pistols. Hopefully it will confirm the earlier results.

Anyone else still beating this horse... ?

I'm not really going with beating the horse, but it's not like my FS 9mm has improved since my last post. I recently got an XDM in 9mm that shot half size groups (2-2.5") of the FS M&P with new factory barrel first time out so my FS may not be in my possession much longer. I'm not looking to drop a few more hundred dollars on a barrel to make it as accurate as most stock service pistols. It's too bad since everything else about the FS MP is perfect.

When I bought my 5" pro, a few years ago, it would hold 2" at 25 yards with Zero, 125 grain, .356 jhps, or 124 grain XTPs, with Titegroup, or VV320 behind them.
Now, that I have shot it for a full season of USPSA, and IDPA, I think the accuracy has fallen off, but, I haven't benched it to find out for sure.
If I find that it won't hold 2" or better at 25 yards, it will go to Apex for a fitted, Barstow bbl.
Anything over 2" at 25 yards is not acceptable for ME. If I miss a shot, I don't want to be wondering if it is the gun!

Unless you have fired an unholy number of rounds, that would be the opposite of what I would expect, but stranger things have happened, I'm sure. When you get a chance to test your gun again, I would be interested to learn how it comes out?

I agree with you that wondering whether the pistol or ammunition has let you down is not productive, and also agree that 2-inches, maybe 2.5-inches maximum, inspires a lot more confidence than 3-4 inches.

My M&P 9mm is as accurate as any gun I've owned, short of a dedicated target piece.

Can't wait to finish paying off the M&P 9 I put on lay a way for the wife to use in IDPA. Like has already been said, I wish I hadn't read this, LOL. Then again I didn't realize my Sigma had such a lousy trigger till the internet 'enlightened' me. I hope the M&P shoots better than the Sigma which shoots pretty well.

Which is exactly my point. You've got 70 year old gentlemen raised off of 1911s and wheel guns and cant hit a target with a glock or m&p. But you'll never hear them admit it.

That's interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm not 70 but maybe I need to find a teenager to check out my M&P. Anything is possible...

I bought a brand new M&P9 fs, and from the git-go with four different factory loads and two accurate hand loads it shot an average of 8" groups, supported at 7yards. Some groups a little better, some worse. I got the pistol back from S&W, last week. The put a new barrel in and "adjusted the trigger" the trigger is about a pound and a half lighter, and with the new barrel the gun shoots better at 25 yards than it previously did at 7. I did notice that on the new barrel I could see the rifling, and it looked deeper. On the old barrel the rifling was so shallow it was hard to tell if it even had any. Anyway, Smith fixed its accuracy problem. It's not a bullseye gun and I don't expect that kind of accuracy out of a 9mm. It does shoot accuratly enough I can shoot an IPSC match in Production and have a decent score.

Sounds like this verifies that they HAVE had problems and who knows if it is an issue in the newest guns...

I just bought a new FS M&P 9, test fire date Oct 2012, but I haven't fired it yet. I bought mine for home defense, not target shooting or for competition, so if it is reasonably accurate, and feeds and ejects consistently, then it will meet my needs. I'm sure hoping it does that...I've always had very good luck with S&W.

I hope that those of you needing more long distance accuracy get your guns sorted out.

No disrespect was meant in my post. Just saying that shooting habits that have been engrained for decades is hard to shake off.

Mine is back at S&W for the third time. It's had 3 new barrels now. after the second barrel it improved slightly, after the third it got worse. They aren't really trying to fix it in my opinion. They probably get it back for their generic problem "groups". Pull a new barrel out of stock, shoot 3 shots at 10 yards, box it up and send it back.

The fact that 3 new barrels have had problems would lead me to think the locking block, probably an inexpensive part compared to a barrel, might be contributing. But what do I know, I'm not a S&W gunsmith.

Of course the slide could be involved as well, but common sense tells me that unless it is designed to be sloppy, worn tooling should make the slide tolerances tighter, not looser.

I'll keep trying. I don't plan to let S&W off the hook and I can't sell it with a clear conscience, so I'm committed at this point.

I don't subscribe to the striker vs. hammer, and trigger excuses. I tell my students "that is where the gun was pointed when it went off." Now that's not the case with the M&P 9.

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Well, it surprises me that S&W hasn't offered to buy the gun just to be rid of the problem.

I have no idea what causes these pistols to be less than acceptable shooters. 4-inches at 25-yards may be a reasonable expectation, but it still is way "too reasonable" for me. I am looking for 2-inches, give or take a little, so I have about resigned myself to buying an aftermarket barrel. I don't see it happening another way.

It occurred to me to try to build a fixture to hold the barrel to test it out of the gun, just as a matter of curiosity, but I think far better minds than mine are at work on this project. If Bar-sto cannot figure this out, I doubt there is anything I could do to help. They expect to have a product available to the general public around March-April (2013) and they are working with others in the meantime to get initial production out in the field and tested. I am in no hurry so I think I will just put my M&P9L in the drawer for a while and wait to see what happens.

In the meantime, I think I will drag my M&P.45 out of nightstand-retirement and shoot it a bit this winter. Should help to teach my old brain how to handle these "new" designs.

I agree. I would have to bite my lip, but I could, I suppose, live with 4" at 25. Its awful, but... I just want it as a means to put a lot of cheap rounds down range. I was hoping to have my cake and eat it too, since I like the feel of the M&P. I put Trijicon HD sights on it and the Apex sear and striker block, before I discovered it was a lemon. Fool me once, shame on me.

I think Apex is supposed to have the fitted barrel for sale any time now. I haven't kept up with it very closely, but that was the last I read.

I think the Navy uses a NRA B-19 Standard Pistol bull at 25 yards to qualify. Don't quote me on that. However, with my M&P9, I'm not sure it would be possible to qualify marksman, let alone expert.

Mtnbubba, in case you are interested, my 9L does not seem to like the shape of the Hornady XTP-HP bullets. I have had far better results with a rounded profile HP that more closely approximates the shape of the standard FMJ bullet. Accuracy invariably suffers when I use a load that has a truncated-cone shape bullet. The best factory load in my 9L so far has been the Federal 9BP.

I purchased an M&P 9mm, and have problems with it low and to the left. I have sent several thousand rounds through it since I have purchased it. I have no problem with the M&P 45, I have tried lots of different suggestions, but still experience the problem. I have tried a couple different lasers on the gun, but it looks like they don't line up either, so I am still not sure if it is just me or something with the gun.

Does someone know if a gunsmith could check for accuracy, and about how much this would cost me? I plan to ask at the local gun shop next time I go in, if they are not too busy... Thanks.

You don't say how far your point of impact appears to be off from your point of aim and at what range. A POA-POI divergence could be a gun problem if it is too large. Take the usual steps of trying a couple different types of ammunition and having another experienced shooter test it to verify your results. If the conclusion is that you have a problem that is the sort of thing the factory will help you with. Give them a call if you need their help rather than taking it to a gunsmith.

Just put 150 rounds through my M&P 9mm (FS) Test fired 11/2012. Very VERY accurate very reliable Shot, all Aguilia 124 grain FMJ and 8 rounds of Speer GDHP 124+P. At 7 yds was able to cloverleaft a 10 round magazine (Mass compliant gun with the 10# trigger) at 25 yds was able to keep all 10 rounds 4inches and under. NO bench rest <the weapon is more than accurate and real soft shooter.
thanks
1SG
Out

Is there any way to tell if the barrel fit is too loose by checking/testing an empty gun? For example, stick a dowel in the barrel and see if it wiggles?

The interior of the barrel is not the problem, as I understand it, the accuracy issue is with the area performing the exterior lockup of the barrel to the slide. This is primarily done by a protruding hood & slide slot at the top rear of the barrel/chamber (where the daytime chamber check hole is).

Side to side tolerance (slop) is what your looking for. Due to the clearance and angles it is hard to measure. You might be able to get a general idea with thin tapered feeler gauges. Also checking the min-max gap the barrel will move horizontally toward the left slide face might also give some idea. This horizontal movement is what fitted barrels can help reduce. Due to manufacturing tolerances, some guns will be much better than others, thus seem more accurate.

The other issue is called early unlocking - where the barrel starts moving downward before the bullet has exited the barrel - this is controlled by the cam slot on the bottom of the barrel and the part in the frame it fits into. Can't do much about this without redesigning the entire barrel, which has been mentioned previously. This will affect vertical impact.

Combined, the issues seem to produce a shotgun pattern for most users who have the problem. Although 4" at 25yd may seem acceptable to some for "combat accuracy", the commercial handgun standard I've always been used to seeing is 2.5" at 25yds or 1" at 10yds.

I do not know if those figures actually represent some sort of "commercial handgun standard" - I don't recall ever seeing it published - but that is exactly what my hobbyist friends and I have used as a gage since the beginning of recorded time, in terms of a service pistol. For a target pistol, we expected 3-inches at 50-yards. Realistically speaking, we found very few autoloaders that met our expectations while high-quality revolvers were able to do so routinely. For the most part, autoloaders these days do seem to be better than they were.

Where do most of you line up your sights? I find that when I center the dots I shoot a little high. Then again it could be me since I also shoot a bit left.

M29.... I qualified that because a military or police service may have other requirements, so I specified a commercial gun as one that you or I could buy at the retail level.

The local PD might be perfectly happy with 4" at 25yds but most of the magazine testing and other published (non-target guns) reports I have read over the years seem to look for that 2 1/2" or better. Like you it's the standard I have heard from the 60's and don't know where exactly it came from.

I also agree that if we are talking a gun sold for target accuracy or a custom job that is significantly more money, then we should expect a greater degree of precision and that is a whole different gun than what we are talking about here.

As I mentioned previously, my XD's (6 of em, out of the box with no modifications) dramatically outperform my M&P with every load I have tried, as do my various brands of 1911's. Maybe it's just me and the subtle differences in the M&P trigger/grip or some other system from the others but I don't think so. I came to the conclusion I couldn't rely on any current M&P to deliver what I consider acceptable accuracy without the likelihood of a lot of aftermarket expenses, so I bought XD's instead and so far have been happy. YMMV.