I can think of no reason why you'd need to modify a quality handgun for self-defense purposes other than things like grips, sights, etc.... Target gun, sure...But self defense? Why?

Having said that, I've been a policeman for a long time also and I can't recall it being an issue unless the defendant brought it up himself to mitigate the charges he was facing. By that, I mean: Bad guys shoots someone...If he meant to do it, that's 1st Degree Murder...plead down to 2nd Degree...If he didn't mean to shoot him and the gun "went off" due to modifications....that's 2nd Degree or maybe even Manslaughter...

But to look back over 30 years to find a case and say "that guy was charged with a crime only because he shot someone with a modified gun": Nope. I can't think of any offhand.

But when the standard of proof is lowered from "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal court all the way down to "by a preponderance of the evidence...." You get the wrong judge or jury in a civil case and your action job could cost you or whomever is (hopefully) indemnifying you a bunch of money....

Can ANY of the people that say DONT modify a pistol trigger share a SINGLE case where in a self defense shooting a modified trigger caused a problem for the legal shooter?

ANYONE?

Bueller?

I think people are being paranoid a bit here.

I think people arent wise that reduce their trigger pull below 4 lbs, because of the higher odds of a
negligent discharge.

I sleep fine with a trigger on my M&P modified to 4.5 plus pounds.

I dont aim at anything I dont intend to shoot
I dont have my finger in the trigger well unless i intend to shoot
I wont put myself at risk for $120 bucks in the 7-11 drawer unless an
innocent is at risk.

Why would you want to be more accurate with a "target gun" than with the gun you carry for self defense?

I want to be as accurate as possible when shooting. I want to be able to know exactly when my trigger is going to break and send that round down range and into its intended target. I go to the range all the time, practice drawing and getting on target when I'm at home, all so if I need to use it in self defense, it will be somewhat ingrained and automatic. Train how you fight.

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

Nope. If I didn't like a carry gun as it came, I wouldn't buy it in the first place.

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

Some people can settle, others can't.

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

Guess I better get rid of my bobtailed, carry-melted Lightweight Commander.

You might not /want/ to be, but you're almost certainly /going/ to be. A "target gun" will generally have a longer sight radius, adjustable sights, be larger and heavier, possibly a wider grip, red dot or scope, all of which make it impractical as a carry gun.

When I shot bullseye (before the age of red dot sights and such), I had to pretty consistently hit within a 3" circle at 50 yards. There is no reason for a carry or self defense gun to be that accurate. Heck, if the zombies are still at 50 yards, I'll use a rifle!

I understand what you're saying, and your definition of a target gun. My "target gun" is also my carry gun. Like I said before, I want to be able to put those rounds in the spot that I choose, whether shooting at paper, metal, or human flesh.

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

No argument there. But I enjoyed target shooting for 45 years before I considered a self defense gun. And I still enjoy true target shooting, of which none of my SD guns are really capable of. But I still, like you, want to shoot them as well as I can, just in case.

Gotcha. If you want to see some awesome shots, check out 22plinkster on YouTube. Mad skills!

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

"Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six"......

Knowing what I know of defensive handgun fights and many years of anecdotal evidence, I just don't think that the extra accuracy gained by a smoother action or lighter trigger has ever made any difference in the real accuracy or outcome. I can't think of anyone who has needed that kind of accuracy "improvement" in a handgun from the factory of a quality maker. And I can absolutely see it coming up in a civil trial. Criminal trial, no. Also, I don't know of anyone who was shot in a gunfight who reasonably believed that the outcome would have been different if they'd had a better trigger on their gun.

As far as court actions: My wife told me about the various jurors' preconceived notions about guns when she was on a homicide trial jury. I told her to not bother coming home if they found the guy "not guilty". She did and I let her in the house anyway. I was proud of her for locking up the jury for 9 hours when they wanted to acquit a lot earlier. But the things she told me about what those morons were saying...Although I've never seen a prosecutor charge based on handgun mods...What happens if you DO get charged and your fate is in the hands of a jury who then get to hear about the mods you made to your gun? No thanks.


Devil's advocate here...I'm on your jury after you get charged.....In the jury room it can go either way. I say: "I know lots of people who carry guns. I have ten cops in the family. They're not allowed to modify their guns. You know why? Because that's how people get killed! I think this guy was just some sort of gun nut from the suburbs who spent his whole life practicing to be able to finally kill somebody. My nephew the cop can shoot expert with his factory Sig but this guy needs to hot rod his thousand dollar gun from the factor? He was just hoping to be able to shoot someone....I say guilty and I'm not changing my mind until he's convicted or we get a hung jury." Then the rest of them "compromise" on manslaughter instead of "not guilty" or murder 2 so they can go home...
.
Think those conversations don't take place among your "peers" in the jury room? Think it's impossible for a "good guy" to have to defend himself in front of a bunch of morons?

Sounds to me like you are the authority on it. Reality is, until you can show reliable statistics and point true instances of this kind of thing happening, your guess is as good as anyone elses. To me, better to be safe than sorry.

Again, show one or more instances where a clean shoot in self-defense has resulted in a civil suit against the shooter for the modifications made to their gun.



Bottom line, I hear what you're saying, but what I do to my gun to make it more reliable in my mind (cleaner break, better trigger feel, etc) is up to me, and I'll take every advantage in a life or death situation. Training to put rounds on target is what I was taught in the military, and it's what any good SD instructor will suggest to anyone who goes through a gun class. Practice may be the difference between my walking away or not. My life is more important than whether or not someone's family gets their jollies off of going after me in a civil suit over a good shoot. In all honesty, I think that civil suits from the families of the BG, following a good shoot or conviction of the BG, should be disallowed because the BG got what they lawfully deserved. IMHO.

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

I don't pretend to be an authority on anything. Would George Zimmerman, the Trayvon Martin guy, be going through what he's going through if it weren't for the influence of things outside the realm of the actual shooting?

I haven't compiled any statistics on the strange things that juries do. Ask a prosecutor or a criminal defense attorney. Michigan has a fleeing felon rule. You can't be charged with a crime if you shoot a fleeing felon...key words "fleeing" and "felon". A security guard had his house burglarized and chased down the B&E man. The burglar allegedly stopped to surrender and the homeowner/security guard shot him after he stopped fleeing. He was charged with the homicide. And I do believe he was excessively charged. If this was you, and I'm being hypothetical here because I know you wouldn't have shot the burglar...but if it was you, for the sake of argument, do you think handgun mods to your security guard/"vigilante" gun would help you or hurt you or have no influence on a jury, some or even most of the members of which may have a relative in prison for various felonies or who has died by gun violence....?

I don't know if there's case law or not but what I do know is that cases are referenced by guilty or not guilty and by the new legal principals they may set. They aren't referenced by what goes on in the jury room. You can't look up a case citation and find out out that the jurors were swayed by the argument that the shooter was a bloodthirsty gun nut who wanted to make his gun more deadly. I CAN tell you that I've seen jurors use some logic and rationalization from mars to convict or acquit people.

Why do you suppose virtually every police department in the land has a policy that prohibits the modification of duty handguns beyond the most simple stuff like SOMETIMES grips?

We can go back and forth over and over, so I'll just leave it alone. The only thing I'll reply to is this:
I wouldn't be allowed to state my own reasoning for making the modifications? Surely, if modifications were an issue, that would come up during questioning by the police, my attorney, and my statement would go on record in my defense. Or do I not get to talk to my attorney either?

So does the military for the most part, but if I'm issued a weapon and I make a complaint about how the trigger pull feels, my armorer is going to disassemble it and clean it up so it feels right. This may result in polishing the trigger bar, swapping out the trigger, etc. I'm sure (of course, I don't KNOW) that police department armorers have the leeway to do the same. But I could be wrong. Oh well.

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

If you decided to testify you would would be able to give your reasoning but not your opinion. But then you would be open to cross examination. It might be better to let your expert talk about the gun mods if the issue came up.

That is, if the question of modifications even came up.

Bottom line is, even according to your previous statement, the modifications that I've made, surely make little difference under the stress of the moment. (translated: didn't make it any easier to shoot the BG than if I hadn't made the mods)

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

That's what I might would say if I were your expert and if I were your lawyer, in closing I might say....."He uses this gun for target practice. He never expected to have to use it to shoot someone, let alone kill them."

Do you know any lawyers who specialize in criminal defense work? Ask them if they think it would be easier to successfully defend someone criminally with or without trigger mods on their self defense gun. Maybe we have someone on the forum that can answer that.

Funny how the attorneys who are members here are staying away from this one.

My guess would be that from a criminal defense standpoint an attorney would see trigger mods as a "can't help, but could hurt" type situation and would do whatever he could to keep them out of the equation and even more so if he were defending someone in a civil case.

Wait, is this a criminal case or a civil lawsuit? You keep going back and forth. Of course, "can't help, but could hurt" is probably correct. The proper thing to do would be to leave the gun at home, and lay down for the BG and die. That way, he gets off scott free, and his family is happy. Meanwhile, my "modified gun" is locked safely away at home and my family has no recourse. As I said before, I'll do what I need to do to defend myself, courts be damned. End of my part of this discussion.

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

Interesting read. Not exactly about what is being discussed but the use of an altered firearm plays a part.

http ://online.ceb.com/calcases/CA4/5CA4t822.htm

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, just offering my perspective on the original and resulting posts. One thing I've noticed about the "Better to be tried by twelve" crowd in these forums: I've never heard one of them say: "I've just completed 2-12 in level IV state penitentiary and I wouldn't have done a thing differently because it's always better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!" I DO know a few cops who have served time in prison after use of force decisions gone bad and I know every single ONE of them would have done something different if they had it to do all over again....The savory taste of the familiar use of force platitude loses some of its flavor when you're locked down 23 hours a day for your own protection, I'm told. I'm not saying there's much chance of an altered gun leading to a conviction but just making an observation of that often-thrown about expression.

Haha, but I bet if you ask if they'd rather be dead or have their freedom after 2-12 yrs, none of them would ever choose the former. :-)

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M&P40c/15-22/SD9VE/Mossy500

On the other hand, I have heard Massad Ayoob make the case in print that a REASONABLY improved trigger shows a CONCERN for innocent bystanders by allowing more control over the weapon, thereby making the chance of injuring an innocent bystander less likely. If the pull is too heavy, it is easy to pull a shot off and hit a bystander.

A pull in which a noticeable "hitch" has been smoothed out, or a double action pull which is SMOOTHER, not lighter, makes it less likely to pull a shot off target. Thus, the owner is more responsible by spending hard earned money to make the use of his weapon less dangerous to bystanders, etc. Naturally, a weapon should just never be cocked during an encounter. Plus, there are certain other safety rules that must be observed, such as finger off the trigger until sights are on the target, etc.

I find no need for it for my Shield CCW. Just me.

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44 Garrett Defender Ammo 4 me.

Doug M. and others have it covered. In my case I've been a cop in 3 cities and 2 states. Carried semi-auto and wheel guns. In Colorado a citizen is allowed deadly force should an intruder enter a dwelling. No civil action is permitted. We had all weapons checked by a dept armorer (another Police Agent/Gunsmith) whether for on or off duty use. I don't recall ANY officer carrying a box stock weapon. Grips, action, sights were the most common changes. Word of caution. States differ. You may have no police experience, range experience hard to verify, but if I were in that movie theater near here I would have liked to have you carrying ANYTHING!! Same for the shootings in malls, colleges (a CCW permit holder can carry on campus of all public universities & community colleges in Colorado) Thor

I knew this question would never result in a cut and dried answer but WOW!! Lots of passion going on with some of these answers! After reading through everyone's comments - and especially the LEO's comments - I think I will keep my paranoia under control. The small mods that I have done have only helped me be more accurate which should be a good thing. My trigger pull is still in the 5 lb+/- range but I am no longer pulling off target due to the original very heavy trigger pull. On the plus side this conversation has helped me realize that while I am an ok shot I will definitely be taking a good class or two to improve. And self defense aside shooting as a hobby is a lot of fun and getting better only makes it more fun.

One poster above asked for any actual case law where modifications became an issue. I can't quote anything specific, but again refer anyone who is looking for the pros and cons to consult Massad Ayoob's studies. He compiles a lot of such material, and is familiar with attorneys who have defended people who used firearms to defend themselves.

One of the problems that even police officers encounter after a critical incident is the "statement" following the shooting. Some agencies allow their officers several days to get themselves together before making a statement, and others require a statement before the smoke has cleared. I have listened to officers involved in shootings who admitted that even though they were ready to articulate their actions right after the incident, a delay helped them realize that they needed to get their heads together. Civilians are not afforded that opportunity, and depending on the circumstances, may really piss off a prosecutor who has an agenda. I recall an LEO who used deadly force against a suspect, who invoked "Garrity", which prevented them from using his post incident statement as evidence. Management was so infuriated that he spent most of a year on administrative leave not realizing that the decision had been made within a few days that he acted in self defence in accordance with the deadly force policy and the law governing that area. He was carrying an unmodified company issued gun. Management tried to paint him as being too quick on the trigger. Can you imagine if they'd found that his trigger draw had been lightened to boot? Would it have had a role in the ultimate outcome in his case? I don't know, but I can imagine that it would have further clouded the issue.

A shooting in self defense has the potential to cost the person who used a weapon in self defense a great deal of money in criminal or civil defense, or both. Hopefully the shooter hasn't run off at the mouth under duress and made statements that will be used against him, but regardless, it is important to find a good attorney who is knowledgeable of these matters. Not all attorneys are, or even care. Furthermore, a good attorney knowledgable in these matters will know where to look for "expert" witnesses whose testimoney is reputable, and cannot be impeached by a glory happy prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney. I saw this years ago in a case that involved the excessive use of force being tried in federal court. The government brought in expert witnesses who were likely the cheapest bid. The defense brought in credible experts and the defendant was acquitted. The defense attorney had also done his homework and discovered that the "victim" had been involved in other incidents where he had been injured. Your attorney must do the same thing. And in him/her doing so, it will become expensive. That LEO paid out over $50K to keep him out of prison.

And finally, the Zimmerman case also comes to mind, as another member posted. Think of all the dirty things that the news media has done to convict Zimmerman before he gets to court. How'd you like to be tried by 12 under those circumstances. Not saying that the carried by six is even an option, but I don't want to wait on the inside of a jail or a prison waiting for my case to be appealed, either. Imagine if the media had proclaimed that he was carrying a pistol with a hair trigger...

These issues are also influenced by where you live and the political environment. Regardless, if you're going to carry a gun, be prepared to articulate your actions, which includes knowing the laws governing the use of deadly force in your area and why you modified your handgun's trigger. Know of a good attorney to call who has experience in getting people acquitted who were accused of murder as a result of using self defense. And finally, use common sense.

And if you research some of Ayoob's writing, you will find that his version can be very different from the factual version.

Can you quote an example of that? I'm rather familiar with his work and I've never come across that issue.

Three that I can recall off the top of my head:

NY v Magliato (light trigger)
NJ v Bias (reloads)
FL v Alvarez (light trigger)

This subject has been treated in all firearms forums and never gets a solution. IMHO there are two situations, one is an accidental shoot or misfire, the other is a self-defense shoot. In the first one the condition of the firearm is important and the modification of the factory parts could be used against the owner because the accident could be triggered by the mod itself and you are responsible of it. On the contrary in a self-defense situation when you choose to shoot is because you consciously want or need to do so, in that position the condition of the firearm is not relevant, it’s not important the way or method you use if you are in need to defend your life, if the gun is modified is as relevant as if you use a baseball bat, knife, frying pan or a hammer, your intention was to attack an opponent trying to harm you in order to preserve your life.

The ole saying down here in the South is "There is a lawyers name written on every bullet u carry."

You modify a carry pistol and use it. You better have one hell of a defense lawyer to back u up. Because the other guy or his family will have hundreds of lawyers lined up ready to take their case.

PS: A while back a burglar broke into a families home while the family was gone. The guy managed to fall and break his leg in the house while coming down the stairs. The guy called 911 from the house and the ambulance picked him up from there........Home owners insurance ended up paying for the guys accident, even though he was in someone elses house.

I am from Texas..... About as far south as you can go....
Texas law protects the legal shooter from what you describe

Keyword TEXAS!!!!!!!!!!

Step over here next door to Louisiana and take a look at some of our screwed up laws.

I'd love to see Louisiana adopt some of Texas laws. For instance in Texas you can CC in an establishment even if the establishment posts a sigh that says "No Firearms allowed". That is of course as long as you have ur CCL and its a private business, not federal.....Step into Louisiana and u can not CC in an establishment that has a sign "no firearms", even if u have a CCL.......Carry a firearm in one of those establishments and for some reason need to use it. And u'll have lawyers eating u alive for carrying a firearm in a no firearm free zone.

Laws differ from State to state. So if u live in a screwed up State with screwed up laws and jave lawsuit happy people that will sue over anything. You may as well keep ur carry weapon as factory as possible.

PS: Do u remember the lawsuit years ago where the woman spilled hot coffee from Mcdonalds into her lap? She sued Mcdonalds and won the lawsuit..........You telling me she expected the coffee to be cold, LoL.

When was anyone prosecuted in Louisiana for defending himself with a gun in a "gun-free" zone? When was anyone sued in Louisiana for using a modified weapon?

I guess I'm in the its OK to customize a carry gun.
Serrations, stippling, trigger, night sites

Andy

Something to consider when choosing a side arm with an exposed spur or trigger modification.

Maybe this swat officer wished he had a modified spur on his weapon.

Officer hurt after accidental shooting at SWAT Conference | WANE

I was working in the neighborhood next to the Allen County Sheriff shooting range and thought that it was in heavy use that day. Indiana Swat shooting conference of over 300 officers. One learned the hard way about snagging a weapon on draw and shot himself in the leg. These are the highly trained experts. An average citizen would want to consider having a trigger or spur that could catch on clothing.

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CA ban no sharp pencils ovr 3"

Some mods are unnecessary. Others may be good or popular but executed poorly by an untrained person. Take the case of people backing off the strain screw on an S&W revolver, believing it to be an action adjustment screw. Back it off far enough and the gun no longer fires.

Perhaps the only real cause for concern is defeating a safety mechanism such as removing a magazine disconnect. If you have such a gun, it would be wise to notify a purchaser, in writing, that such a modification was made and the gun will fire the chambered round, with or without a magazine.

Wow!! Zombie Thread resurrection!

I heard this argument since I got into firearms but havent really seen proof in court cases of a modified firearm being the defining factor in a conviction. Ive pondered this myself lately since Im currently carrying a modified firearm which is a taurus pt1911. Long story short I bought it used and the previous owner loctited the overtravel screw in so far that the hammer was tearing at the sear so I had to grind away enough of the hammer half cock notch to clear the sear. Ive tried every way to free up the screw and it wont budge. The easy way would be to buy a new hammer and sear and possibly thumb safety but I had NO way of affording them. Upon initial inspection of the gun I noticed the firing pin block spring was gone. I called Taurus and they refused to sell or send me a new FP block spring. Ive tried a colt spring and it wont fit. It is reliable in the 300 rounds ive put through it but would it hurt me in court? Im in the process of getting a better extractor,series 80 delete shim,hammer and sear. Im personally blame taurus for producing a proprietary design and then refusing to support it.

Modify a carry pistol? Yes AND no...

Yes: Apex kit. Night Sights. Action job (revolvers). Stuff like that is OK.

NO: Disabling safeties or whacking them off. Weaker springs for a lighter pull. This kind of stuff can be a problem if you ever have to use your carry piece for real.

Bingo, and since I'm responsible for every round that leaves my barrel I absolutely make any and all modifications that allow me to hit my target more accurately with more speed... A prosecutor who is hell bent on trying to send you to prison will use any and everything against you. Zimmerman's prosecutor argued him carrying with a round in the chamber meant he was out for blood... How'd that work out for the prosecution?

Bottom line, a good shoot is a good shoot. Practice gun safety and you won't have to worry about a negligent discharge which will be a problem for you regardless if the gun is bone stock or modified... Disregard those with the chicken little mentality.

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unrepentant M&P fanboy

Here in Florida using stand your ground gives you immunity from any civil suits and even if you don't use stand your ground (Zimmerman never invoked stand your ground) a civil suit after a not guilty verdict can backfire, why do you think Trayvon Martin's family never attempted a lawsuit?

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unrepentant M&P fanboy

i asked this same question a while back....

my thought was id rather be alive and maybe getting sued than dead with no options.

if you change anything their will always be someone somewhere looking to use that against you. you maybe be found innocent by law and still get sued in civil court. kind of like OJ Simpson... found not guilty by law and then sued by her family for wrongful death and convicted there.

join the NRA they got people to help in this situation. and then remember not one person here is a lawyer so take anything said by anyone as an opinion and not fact. find a local gun friendly lawyer and either A. keep him on a retainer or B. meet with him and get facts about the law. because if this ever happens and your defense is a guy on the S&W forums told me..... see ya in 25

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NeedleFreaks Tattoo

Actually, there are several lawyers on the forum, but all of us will provide disclaimers about how we are not YOUR lawyer (which is not done to be obnoxious, but to cover our "selves" with regard to Bar consequences of being accused of having formed an attorney-client relationship, practicing in a state in which we are not admitted, or other unpleasantness).

My response to this string is on page 1, I believe. Go read it and see if that helps with general concepts.

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NHI, 10-8.

Short answer. No.
Long answer, only make modifications that are appropriate and useful. A bad trigger can be adjusted. Sights can be realigned. Normal stuff that's not cowboy crazy. Superlight trigger for instance - NO! And so forth. If it ain't broke, in this case, definitely don't fix it.

If you want my legal theories, and I am a lawyer, PM me.

***GRJ***

No. The only exception (in my case) is adding night sights. For others, may be adding a grip sleeve or whatever. But never mess with the internals of a CCW. I would even advise against ever adding mag extensions that alter the number of rounds. Those have proven, in many cases , to be unreliable. It changes the internal geometry as relates to the mag spring.

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40c FS,9Shield(2)40,9Pro

My latest two carry guns are essentially box stock.

My first, has undergone many changes due to changes in tastes, preferences, and due to damage incurred.

The most important thing is that they all work safely, reliably and as designed.