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  #1  
Old 11-30-2012, 04:20 PM
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Default Modify a carry pistol? Yes or No?

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Just looking for opinions on who thinks it is a good - or bad - idea to modify a concealed carry gun and why. Possible legal issues? Should you pay to have an professional do the work? Etc.

I couldn't find an existing thread but if there is already one direct me.

Thanks.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:29 PM
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If you never have to use it, there will never be an issue. If you do use it, there will be a ton of legal issues. The hardest to defend against are modifications that make a gun easier to shoot than the manufacturer intended. The term "hair trigger" sounds awful in a packed court room. Even something as simple as a trigger shoe can be artfully spun by a clever attorney into a weapon of mass destruction. Other than after-market grips, most departments forbid any modifications to issue weapons.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:30 PM
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What do you consider modify? change the sights, trigger job? or something more in depth?
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:30 PM
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Modify how? Adding night sights is modifying

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Old 11-30-2012, 04:31 PM
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I think it's up to the individual. Me, I changed out my trigger and ground some areas that were contributing to "gritty" trigger pull. Now it's not gritty, and has a very clean break. I've removed the bluing from my barrel, ejector, takedown lever, and slide release. I've changed out my grip, grip tool magazine plates, and mag release with stippled ones. I don't think modification is a bad idea. I don't even think having a light trigger pull is a bad idea. If you're cutting springs, etc, sure, have a professional do it, but if you're just swapping parts, there is no need to pay for that to be done. All of this is just IMHO.

I think any legal issues you have would boil down to whether or not it was a justified shooting. Not how easy it is to pull the trigger. As much as the prosecuting attorney would like to spin it, that's what it would be about.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:37 PM
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Mainly sights and a trigger job. Night sights help me a lot and even though Smith worked on the trigger on my Shield it is still awfully stiff to me so... I installed the Apex and it is MUCH better but now I'm getting cold feet about carrying it. Go figure
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:37 PM
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There aren't going to be many folks with actual experience in this area to give you advice.

My thoughts are that you should be able to explain why such enhancements were done to create a safer weapon. Be ready to testify that mods were done out of a sense of responsibility. For example, the average jury member could probably be made to see how the modifications lessen the chance of errant shots, etc.

As for who does the work, it would probably be easier to convince a jury of your responsible actions if a professional did the work and you have documentation to prove it. The average Bubba modifying his own weapon doesn't sound to good...

If you are ever forced to shoot someone in self defense (God forbid) the subject of gun mods probably won't even be an issue if its a lawful, clean shoot. If you happen to live in some leftest cesspool area of the nation, all bets are off regardless of the lawfulness of your actions if the gun is modified.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:58 PM
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I have been involved with the criminal justice system in Texas for years. I have never come across negative repercussions for gun modifications in all that time. The bottom line is use deadly force as a last resort and only if your life or someone else's is at risk, or if your home is being invaded. You are more likely to get a thank you from the local police as long as it's a justified shooting. I recall one case where a citizen was on his way to or from a range and came upon a police officer in a very bad situation, he used his handgun to save the officer. The local PD gave him a case of ammunition. This was in pre CPW License days in Texas.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:46 PM
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Not me. I carry either a 9c or 581, both stock, with factory ammo. Liability is a lesser concern than reliability. Just my thoughts.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:57 PM
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Google Massad Ayoob for some interesting reading on this subject. He is also a member here and may chime in.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Coaltminer View Post
Not me. I carry either a 9c or 581, both stock, with factory ammo. Liability is a lesser concern than reliability. Just my thoughts.
Exactly, I'd rather have a reliable firearm that I am comfortable with a know that I've made it the way that I prefer, than to be dead. Courts be damned.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:18 PM
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This is my daily carry gun.



It is heavily modified, but only in the most inoccuous ways.



908 Frame
910 Slide
Mepro Sights
Hogue Stocks
Many stock plastic parts replaced with metal.

These modifications make the gun more reliable, better balanced and easier to shoot. But the trigger is stock.



(Leather by Lefty "Oldflatfoot" Lewis of Bell Charter Oak Custom Holsters)
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:28 PM
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It is a gun, not something you should carry unless you are unprepared to defend your right to use, god forbid you should ever have to pull the trigger in defense.
It is a tool, used to suit the needs of it's handler and should be as efficient at this task as possible.
If the time comes, to where you need to use your firearm the situation should require that only one party will see a courtroom anyway.
I don't advocate chopping barrels, modifying guns for bump fire or select fire or trying to illegally silence it but everything else is legal and can be useful.
At least none of my forms said I can't improve my property, within legal confines of course.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdog45 View Post
I have been involved with the criminal justice system in Texas for years. I have never come across negative repercussions for gun modifications in all that time. The bottom line is use deadly force as a last resort and only if your life or someone else's is at risk, or if your home is being invaded. You are more likely to get a thank you from the local police as long as it's a justified shooting. I recall one case where a citizen was on his way to or from a range and came upon a police officer in a very bad situation, he used his handgun to save the officer. The local PD gave him a case of ammunition. This was in pre CPW License days in Texas.
TEXAS was the key word.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:37 PM
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My EDC is a J frame and the only mod I make is to add a grip adapter or maybe change the grips altogether. Aside from that I carry/shoot 'em the way they come from the factory.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:41 PM
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Louisiana is too much of a screwed up state to risk moddying a carry pistol. For instance......Burglar broke into someones house awhile back. In the process, he somehow managed to drop the tv on his foot and broke his foot. Guy sewed the homeowner and he won the damn lawsuit. How the hell do you win a lawsuit when u broke into the persons house any damn ways?.

The answer is LOUISIANA!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:04 PM
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If you intend to shoot someone, any modifications to a gun would not be cause any criminal charges. The word is intent. You intended to shoot that person and you carried out your intent and shot them. The shooting circumstances would determine whether criminal charges would be issued, not the modifications to the gun.

If you accidentally fired your modified gun, then those modifications could be cause for criminal action. Charges from careless use of a weapon, to accidential death (negligent homicide) could be charged. Of course you can count on being sued in all circumstances of injury or death..

All of my carry guns are modified for better trigger action, grip, and sighting. These modifications allow me to control and shoot the gun more accurately. I practice often with my modified carry guns, so I am familiar with the trigger, recoil, and sight recovery. Did I mention practice also helps me to hit what I'm aiming at.

Bob

Last edited by robkarrob; 11-30-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:10 PM
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Robkarrob,
Are you an attorney?
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:19 PM
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NO XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:35 PM
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Depends upon what mods you're talking about. Changing sights or grips/stocks to make the weapon easier for you to shoot accurately are easily defensable. Those who suggest that mods be done by a pro are correct (OK, you don't need a pro to change stocks!). I'll also point out that S&W has a custom shop that does very good work and carries factory warranty.

Where one starts down a slippery slope is in reducing trigger pulls. If a pro reduces the trigger pull weight and stays within factory specification, this is also denfensable as it improves your ability to hit your target. If the trigger pull is less than factory specification or if you have removed safety devices, then you're engaging in behavior that can possibly be used to call your judgement into question. After all, you're potentially asking a jury to believe that your decision to use lethal force was that of a reasonable and prudent individual. In the eyes of non gun owners, who will make up the jury (and possibly quite a few gun owners, who won't be on the jury), trigger pulls less than factory spec and removed safety devices are decidedly not reasonable and prudent.

I have exactly one box stock handgun (M&P9), it flat didn't need any alteration from the way the factory made it. It's the one I've been using the past six years.

This subject has been beat beyond death on this forum and others. I recall a thread on the old Gun Zone forum that ran something like 19 pages. Take the earlier suggestion to search Massad Ayoob and/or modified guns/liability.

Last edited by WR Moore; 11-30-2012 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:57 PM
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"Series 70" with a low of 3.5lbs trigger was the most liberal gun I was allowed to carry as a duty gun or off duty as a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County. I qualifed many times with such a pistol.

I doubt the county you live in gives their coppers such a luxery.
Anyway I always think that if it was good enough for the chief LE enforcement agency in the county I was on solid ground. You really can't ask for more than a 1911 in condition one with 3.5lbs trigger.

Random thoughts that may or may not apply to you.

I however wouldn't worry about an Apex trigger. But you can see where my bar was set.

Emory
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:59 PM
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It depends on an individuals requirments. I carry a 442 and I've done a trigger job/spring change, grip change and added a Laserlyte laser. My neuropathy causes weakness in my right hand and the different grips along with a lighter smoother trigger makes it possible for me to shoot it with either hand.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:26 PM
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When i have enough money to buy my model 60 i am going to have the hammer spur removed by my gunsmith. So that i can draw it without the hammer snagging on clothing.

That is only modification i will have done to my carry gun, I considered also having an action job done to it but after reading through this thread i am not going to have the action job done just the hammer spur taken off.

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Old 11-30-2012, 08:46 PM
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The only modifications to my carry guns are different grips and night sights were added to one that came without them. I also carry only factory ammunition. I would rather not have to justify modifications or reload data if i ever had to go to court over a shooting. It is part of my KISS outlook.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:04 PM
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I think robkarrob said it well. As far as a lighted trigger pull is concerned, if you modded it or had it lighted, and it went off accidentally during handling, the heck yes, you are going to be in trouble. If you've shot it at someone, you didn't shoot them any more or less because of the light trigger (this assumes you actually intended to fire), so it shouldn't make much difference; it's the circumstances of the shooting that matter.

Now, adding a higher capacity magazine, and emptying same into an individual, would/should be frowned upon.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:26 PM
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Thanks to everyone for the great feedback!
Obviously no sane person is looking to shoot anyone but a little "belt and suspenders" are a plus. I for one would rather run away and get help from the police if possible vs. shooting anyone but you just never know if that will be possible. I live in Georgia so not too worried plus I would never modify past grips, sights and a smoother trigger to help with accuracy. Plus - as robkarrob said - as much practice time as I can afford!
Thanks again!
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:47 AM
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To channel Mas Ayoob, you should never remove a manufacturer-supplied safety device.... OTOH, he's generally defending LEO's over issues like this, and the agencies, presuming they or the Officer's union, are willing to stand behind them, have deeper pockets and are generally more likely to get sued anyway.

Just IMHO, if it's a good shooting from a Criminal standpoint, there's likely not going to be a problem no matter what you do. 'Course, there are Prosecutors and Judges out there who will crucify you for using a box-stock 10mm because they think it's too powerful....

Where, I think, you run a risk, is the likely Civil suit that may attach to a shooting, whether it's justified or not. These can be a lottery win for the BG, and/or his/her lawyers and/or heirs. It's quite possible that their lawyers will try to paint you as every kind of evil imaginable, regardless of the nature of the weapon anyway, but changes might make that worse.

Overall, I don't see much hazard other than the safety devices or a very light trigger.

Reminds me of a friend who was called as an expert witness. BG claimed that he couldn't have killed somebody because his gun had a broken firing pin. She borrowed a pencil from the bailiff, and sent it across the room.... Guilty....

(I think Mas is mad at me. He was complaining about problems getting guns through airport security some time back, and I suggested that he change his name. Ooops.... Good guy, though - he's worked with another buddy of mine over the years. Hope to meet him someday.)

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:28 AM
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Modify how? Adding night sights is modifying

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Right. As is filling in the logos with gold paint. Or adding "tactical" grips.

Having read some arcane gun laws (color "A" is okay, color "B" is not) I have come to the conclusion that if they're going to try prosecution due to a trigger shoe, night sights or whatever, it doesn't matter whether the gun was modded or not.

I live in Ohio and I'm with the "as long as the shoot is justified, no problem" side of this discussion.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:18 AM
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The same clever atty that can turn your modifications against you. I am sure there are a few clever atty's that can defend you. Also if its a clean justifed shoot, then modifications may not even come into play.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:36 AM
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Have never changed any of my weapons. That may change when i get my AR but as far as my pistols go i have done zero changes to them. Havent even changed the "100 pound trigger" in my sigma. I might add steel sights to my glock but thats it.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repli-can't View Post
All
Just looking for opinions on who thinks it is a good - or bad - idea to modify a concealed carry gun and why. Possible legal issues? Should you pay to have an professional do the work? Etc.

I couldn't find an existing thread but if there is already one direct me.

Thanks.
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No worries. If you don't know what you are doing, have someone that does do the work.


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Old 12-01-2012, 09:03 AM
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My duty gun is an FNP45 Tactical, aside from the addition of a Trijicon red dot sight it is as it came out of the box because it is 100% reliable and shoots very, very well for me. It may get some trigger work down the road, we'll see, but for now it's about a perfect duty gun.

My off duty guns (and most of my other handguns) are all modified/customized to some degree, all the mechanical mods make the guns safer, more reliable, and easier to shoot accurately, and the cosmetic mods are just personal preference. I have yet to have an issue with any dept I've worked for and my guns are inspected by the red hats each time we qualify, as long as they are safe they are good to go, there's never been a question or issue over any modifications.

Should I ever get into a gunfight I intend to win and I want the odds as much in my favor as possible, thats why I carry the guns I shoot best and trust to work, some are modified, some aren't. If I end up in court we'll see what happens, at least I'll be there to defend myself.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike McLellan View Post
The hardest to defend against are modifications that make a gun easier to shoot than the manufacturer intended. The term "hair trigger" sounds awful in a packed court room. Even something as simple as a trigger shoe can be artfully spun by a clever attorney into a weapon of mass destruction.
That may be true in the context of a ND that results in injury or death, but if the shoot is good and you are legally carrying a legal gun, trigger pull will not be an issue.(that advise is worth exactly what I am charging).

You should contact the gun friendly lawyer you have lined up already. Anyone who carries should have a pre existing relationship with an attorney who successfully defends armed citizens.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:46 PM
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Changing out grips and sights should not be an issue as even some federal agencies allow those modifications to duty issued/authorized handguns. I don't think that aftermarket recoil springs/guide rods/ recoil reducers would make any kind of ripple. Trigger modifications that reduce trigger pull weights seem to be the issues that will get someone in trouble, especially if the shooter or his/her attorney cannot reasonably articulate why the modification was performed and why it did not have an adverse effect on an otherwise justifiable use of deadly force. I don't know that you'd have any problems if a qualified armorer smooth and polish the mating surfaces in the action (removing burrs, etc) simply to smooth out the trigger, but modifications that create a "hair trigger" should be avoided for a self defense pistol in this day and age. Not sure that some of those modifications over the years were even all that smart back when one could get away with it. There was a time when law enforcement training recommended prepping the trigger as soon as the pistol was out of the holster. That was when DA revolvers were the rule and not the exception (And there was a run of Colt Troopers with 20 lb DA pulls). I still hear it and read it from time to time from trainers here and there. Being used to a heavier trigger pull and then switching to a handgun with a light trigger while under stress can lead to a premature discharge if you are prepping the trigger during presentation. Even going from a standard Glock or S&W M&P trigger pull to something lighter can be a problem. As others have suggested, Google Massad Ayoob's publications on light triggers and court cases involving use of handguns for self defense.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by WC145 View Post
Should I ever get into a gunfight I intend to win and I want the odds as much in my favor as possible, thats why I carry the guns I shoot best and trust to work, some are modified, some aren't. If I end up in court we'll see what happens, at least I'll be there to defend myself.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:06 PM
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I have seen this posted again and again but you can have a 1lb or a 20lb trigger and it wont matter unless it is an accidental shooting...example...gun falls to ground fires and hits bystander. As long as the use of force was justified why would it matter how much force was required to pull the trigger.

Id like to see a modern case were use of force was 100% justified but shooter was still charged based only on trigger weight/modification.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:18 PM
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Accidental discharge is the question. With a bone stock gun, you will be liable, as somehow during handling of the gun it discharged. Depending on the circumstances you could face criminal charges, but for injury or death you would certainly face civil charges. The civil attorney suing you may also go after the gun manufacturer (deep pockets).

With modifications to a gun, the first question would be "could those modifications have made the gun less safe than the stock gun? Was the cause of the discharge related to any of the modifications?" If the answer is yes, or could be yes, to either of those questions, then you could criminally face some type of negligent charges (you did not intend it to happen). If you are sued in a civil court, the modifications will be used to to convince the jury to award higher damages, as the gun was "not safe and was more likely to discharge". With modifications to the gun, the gun manufacturer would most likely not be included in the lawsuit.

The above is for accidental discharge. If you shoot someone with intent (you thought about it, took action, and completed your intent), then any modifications would not matter. It is like someone said, if you had a trigger that was so light it would fire if a fly landed on it, it still would not matter. It was not an accidental discharge. You had intent (thought about shooting the person, even for only a second). You took action (you aimed the gun and pulled the trigger). You completed your intent (the gun fired and the bullet hit your target). In this situation, depending on the circumstances, the charges could be nothing (a self defense situation) all the way up to fist degree murder (you planned it and carried it out).

Even if this shooting was determined to be an obvious SD situation, and no criminal charges are filed, you still will likely be sued by the victim, or the victim's family. You could be totally in the right by defending yourself or family, and you will still be sued. Most people are not aware of the costs of defending themselves in a "good" shooting. As we all know, in our country you can sue for almost anything. The costs for defending yourself falls upon yourself, with little chance of recovering those costs.

Bob

Last edited by robkarrob; 12-02-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:26 PM
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You can be sued over anything these days dont let that stop you from defending yourself.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:34 PM
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The Department I work for will not allow any modifications whatsoever. Over the years they have upgraded grips and sights and have changed what is the approved ammo but we can not do anything to them. NY is an anti gun state and if I deviate from what they approve my instructors have made it clear I am on my own. Coming from this type of constraint I will not carry a modified handgun. If I modify it will be for range use or local competition.
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  #40  
Old 12-01-2012, 02:37 PM
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I have TFO sights, Talon grips and Apex DCAEK mods to my Shield 9mm. For me, all of these mods make the pistola easier to shoot accurately.

Lately, I've considered re-installing the factory sear, sear spring and trigger return spring - The full Apex trigger mod is just a little too light for my EDC purposes. YMMV...
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  #41  
Old 12-01-2012, 02:40 PM
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I could see dept issued firearms having "X" amount of trigger weight to prevent possible ND but it makes for a horrible shooting handgun. An example would be that somewhat recent NYPD shooting. I have far more faith in my 1911 with a light crisp trigger in putting rounds on target than say my keltec P11.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:13 AM
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Here we go again, It does not matter if you modify the gun and carry reloads. A clean shoot is a clean shoot, Justifiable is Justifiable. after all my light trigger makes me shoot more accurate, accurate =safer. My reloads are more accurate Accurate=safer. and if its a justifiable shoot I have no worries.
B.S. people guess what (I say this weekly in my classes), the shooter is not the one, who stamps the case file JUSTIFIABLE the PROSECUTOR does that if the PROSECUTOR does not like the fact you have a HAIR TRIGGER and were using KILLER AMMO in your modified gun they may hold off using that justifiable stamp on your case file.
That's My stance on this issue.
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  #43  
Old 12-02-2012, 09:31 AM
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I've always read that a modified pistol will get you barbequed in court. But I'll tell you what I do.

I have had a long association with custom gunsmith Terry Tussey. Like many others, he has a service called a "reliability package."

If I sent him a 1911 for this service, he would polish the feed-ramp and breech face, clean up the trigger and inspect the sear, check out the ejector and extractor and go through my magazines.

On my pistols I ask him to make sure the trigger is +5 pounds, and that the safety is modified to make it harder than normal to disengage. Not only is his stuff crisp, but if confronted, my adrenaline will be pumping and even a 12 pound trigger will feel 'normal.'

Of course, he documents these changes.

In other words, I bend over backwards to check out these pistols, and have an expert document the conditions. Just to make sure, periodically my stuff goes back to him for tune-ups. That is documented, as well.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:23 PM
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I have the S&W M&P 40FS which I carry on duty for armed security work after I retired as a LEO. I made only two modifications to the gun. I added Trijicon night sights and DCAEK trigger set. The trigger pull is less than stock but it is at about 5lbs. I carry Hornaday TAP 155 JHP ammo.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:56 PM
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Cracker has it about right, look there are tooooo many out of work/starving lawyers who will take any deep pockets or otherwise possible, settle out of court case. Even murderers and rapist shot in the act have had lawsuit filed for them.
A bad or accidental shooting on your part will be hard to justify and could possibly be made worse by some outrageous modifications, that might be construed as some type of gross negligence ( 1lb trigger on duty type gun.)
Your safest bet is to have any work done by the factory, then at least they may stand behind you if (BIG IF) something causes the gun to go off on its own(act of God).
Honestly no modification takes the place of serious, proper practice.Most self defense type shooters would be better of spending money for (good) training or ammo to shoot more on your own.
What sinks alot of cases, or at least gives them an opening are things like, undocumented/or no training,improper statements, like "I didnt mean to shoot" or such, and lying (in this day of cameras everywhere) will sink you alot faster, than a set of new tactical sights, or high powered ammunition.( READ this as KEEP MOUTH SHUT!)Learned that at an early age!!!
I had an example one day, certain gun distributer was selling guns with "THE BIG WHOMPER" laser etched on the slide, I advised a young guy that that may not be the best idea for a self defense weapon and why, though unhappy, he understood.
There are no positively safe or for sure rules, I've always gone by the old "rather judged by 12,than carried by 6 rule." MY 35 yr experience ..02 worth.
Good Luck , save your money, take care of your family, and maybe we will all servive the next 4 years. Merry Christmas. B
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  #46  
Old 12-02-2012, 04:30 PM
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Oh ARGH. This topic area comes up regularly on forums and is a constant source of frustration. The legal/social environment varies so much between states that specific research is going to be needed. I live and work in Washington, but what might happen here compared to Illinois where I used to be, or someplace really evil like NJ or California is not generalizable. One also has to understand the difference between civil and criminal exposure. Different standards of conduct, and different burdens of proof.

Here, I have some big institutional advantages, and others based on my experience. A huge one is that under Washington law, any form of civil recovery by an offender injured as a consequence their commission of a felony is barred by statute. Break into someone's house, and their landshark chews off a leg, followed by a couple gunshot wounds etc - tough. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Criminal exposure to a citizen using force in opposition to criminal activity is not likely, either. Even in the People's Republic of the I5 Corridor, the odds of a prosecutor filing a case against a citizen for an arguable use of force are modest at most. It's too politically costly, and it is also expensive.

I've also been a cop and prosecutor in two states. I handle both violent felonies and some civil matters, am comfortable in the courtroom, and like to fight. I have also written on use of force and other legal and training issues for LE, and have access to a lot of savvy potential expert witnesses. I actually know what I am talking about in a legal analysis or conflict about use of force; most lawyers (including criminal practitioners) and judges don't. I have had some pretty stupid comments made by defense attorneys whining about injuries to their clients resulting from fights with cops and citizens; a couple times I have been surprised I managed to get out of court without dropping an F-bomb on the record.

Most modifications to a firearm that are designed and correctly implemented to improve performance in that setting are not admissible in a criminal proceeding about an intentional shooting. Grips that fit; better sights including an RDS; a trigger that improves the likelihood of accurate shooting without deviating from safety practices (remember rule 3, which is more important than the mechanical issues anyway) etc - non-issues that should not be admissible under ER401/403 unless they can be used somehow to show some form of criminal premeditation on the part of the shooter. (Which is where the social/political issues come into play; in some places, the hostility to armed citizens may be such that this could be a problem.) I would not worry at all about using the APEX duty/carry kits for a better/smoother trigger. However, if you are worried about reset, and that is the driving incentive, slap yourself. That is a competition/target shooting concept and has no place in a discussion of fighting technique.

More likely to be a problem is an internet search that reveals some of the dumb comments I have seen on other forums (like shoot shovel and shut up; advocating shooting trespassers without any other indication of potential risk of death/GBH being presented to the shooter, etc).

Mas advocates positions based on his experiences, but they are context driven. Many of the cases that formed his views are (relatively) long ago, and we have a lot of improved knowledge on the legal and tactical analysis, and some statutory changes such as the immunities we have here in Washington and other states. The trend is away from the outcomes about which he has been concerned, at least in my experience.
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Last edited by Doug M.; 12-02-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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  #47  
Old 12-02-2012, 04:58 PM
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Doug M: You hit the nail on the head. Thanks, I couldn't have said it better!
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:09 PM
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Just in my opinion some people are too paranoid. Some will go and use the same bullets as local LEO because they think somehow if using a certain hollow point the prosecutor will turn it against you and it will look bad in front of a jury. Personally I don't get all the paranoia. I modify my guns to help me to become a more proficient shooter. I wouldn't consider carrying a gun that I had trouble with accuracy due to a hard trigger pull, which is why I put a DCAEK in my M&P40 before carrying it.
Imagine having your heart pounding, adrenaline coming on, and quickly trying to draw and get a center mass shot off before the BG does with a gun you are not the most accurate with while at a range taking your time. Even with a smooth 5lbs trigger it can be a challenge in those conditions. I know plenty of people will disagree either way you go. Really it's for you to decide. Do what makes you the most confident in your shooting ability.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:27 PM
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No.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WC145 View Post
My duty gun is an FNP45 Tactical, aside from the addition of a Trijicon red dot sight it is as it came out of the box because it is 100% reliable and shoots very, very well for me. It may get some trigger work down the road, we'll see, but for now it's about a perfect duty gun.

My off duty guns (and most of my other handguns) are all modified/customized to some degree, all the mechanical mods make the guns safer, more reliable, and easier to shoot accurately, and the cosmetic mods are just personal preference. I have yet to have an issue with any dept I've worked for and my guns are inspected by the red hats each time we qualify, as long as they are safe they are good to go, there's never been a question or issue over any modifications.

Should I ever get into a gunfight I intend to win and I want the odds as much in my favor as possible, thats why I carry the guns I shoot best and trust to work, some are modified, some aren't. If I end up in court we'll see what happens, at least I'll be there to defend myself.
Remember the old saying: Its better to be tried by twelve
than to be carried by six!
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