Hi Coach. Need some advice please.

I'm a lefty, new shooter. I seem to consistently shoot low and right, and am trying to address my issue.

Based on what I've read, I am "overgripping" the pistol, but I am not real sure what "overgripping" means.

The ammo I am using is PMC Bronze 115 gr FMJ. The pistol is a rental S&W M&P FS in 9mm. I have shot 1,235 rounds over the last 6 months or so (same pistol, same ammo).

I'm trying to use a consistent, balanced "nose over toes" stance.

My grip is pretty high, as high as I can get. My thumbs generally are pointed downrange. I extend about as far as is comfortable, and I don't use a death grip, but enough grip in my shooting (left) hand to control the sight. I shoot at silhouette targets at about 7 yards at our local range, Shooter's World in Tampa.

A picture of me shooting is in picture one, for reference.

I usually shoot in groups of five, slowly, and try to focus firmly on the front sight, squeeze the trigger and wait for the bang. But what usually happens is that all my rounds will land low and right. They will group ok, but almost all groups are low and right.

The second picture shows a typical group, low and right.

Lately I have been wondering, "is it the gun" and I've lurked enough on the board to be pretty sure, you know, "it's not the gun". .

But I've never really, been able to pin-point what I am doing wrong.

Now, as an experiment, on one of my last groups this weekend, I REALLY tried to SLOWWWWW Way down and allow the shot to break 'whenever' it happened. I remember, I was kind of surprised, when a shot took place, in this group. When I looked up, this group was the first time, EVER, that I started putting rounds at or around the center of the target i.e. where I was aiming.)

This is the last picture.

So, I must have done something, on that last group, because I was astonished that I was able to do that, and finally, I was firing and landing, on the center of the target (more or less; the last round I was so excited I was landing near where I aimed, that I forgot. That is the one out there at 3 o'clock lol.)

So my question is, is it only the fact that I was so focused, so determined not to move the front site off the target, that I was drawing the trigger straight back and not somehow twisting the gun low and right as I shot, in the last second? Or is there something else I did right in this last group that resulted in better accuracy?

And what is "overgripping" anyway?

The Mrs. and I just moved to Tampa, so I don't know a lot of folks to ask locally just yet who can help me with this at the range.

I have however, learned the folks on this forum are some of the most experienced shooters I've ever seen, so I thought I would turn to ya'll and get some feedback on what was going on.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Much obliged.

Rich

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Usually a little more finger on the trigger helps. If you are using the tip of you finger, move it until the trigger is between the tip and first joint.

A few other things is dry fire with an empty case balanced on the front sight. The case should stay on the front sight if you have a good trigger pull.

If you have a shooting partner at the range have them hand you the gun with it either loaded or with an empty chamber. If you see any movement when the chamber is empty, you need more work on your trigger control.

Those are a few tips that I've used to help other shooters.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 4

WitHout seeing you shot in person it's tough, but my guess would be you are squeezing with all your fingers on your shooting hand. Concentrate on just moving your trigger finger. The suggestion to dry fire or use snap caps is a great one.

Though to do, but only move the trigger.

TD

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More stuff!!!

I was at the range (indoor) yesterday, and noticed a few lanes over a laser, he was all over the place. I walked over just to see the laser set up, asked if it was ok to watch from behind. (crimson trace) on a fancy, nice 45 kimber. Some kind of compact. 1 thing led to another, he offered me 3 rounds to try the kimber/laser combo. Was weird to me but I hit the red with all 3. (Lucky)! Nice gun, but love my M&P.

Long story short, he had same issues as you, my advice was same as Danno_man. Told him also to practice dry fire, forget laser for now and use sites. His grip issue was trigger finger more than anything else I could notice. He was at the 1st knuckle.

P.S. Southpaw also.

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Criminals don't register guns.

First question. Are you "fingering" the trigger guard? Yeah, I know, they are hooked and textured so your probably supposed to put the index finger of the support hand there. NO YOU ARE NOT supposed to "finger" the trigger guard. That particular grip style was considered bad technique within a month of it's hitting wide exposure. Why we are still stuck with those ugly hooked trigger guards I don't understand because nobody I know of would ever consider using it. BTW, the problem with this particular bad habit is that it makes it far too easy for your support hand to "steer" the handgun and as a result makes for miserable accuracy.

Second question. Are you shooting "sidesaddle". This is a rotation of the strong hand around the grip to get more finger on the trigger. Hold your hand straight up with your thumb and fingers forming a Vee. Right smack in the middle of that Vee is the point that should be centered on the backstrap of your grip. If you have trouble getting enough finger on the trigger install the smaller grip insert. If it results in your trigger finger being past the first joint install the larger grip insert. Ideally what you want to see when looking down at the pistol in your strong hand with your finger positioned on the trigger is that the muzzle is in perfect alignment with the bones in your forearm. If you see an offset you are side saddling the grip.

Paying attention to the above details will usually help with Left/Right deviations.

Now for the shooting low part of the equation. This is almost universally a matter of anticipating the gun firing and pushing it down. Basically, it's a Push Flinch. The fastest way to identify this problem is by having someone load 2 or 3 snap caps (inert shells) into your magazine. When you hit one of these snap caps and the gun doesn't fire you'll see just how much flinch you have. BTW, experienced shooters tend to learn how to "feel" it when they start doing this and respond by slowing down and concentrating on a "pure" clean release of the trigger. If you've ever studied Zen you'll find that some of those meditation techniques can work wonders for controlling a tendency to flinch.

BTW, about flinching. First, it's a totally natural human response to a loud noise and sudden jolt. IMO any shooter who claims they don't ever flinch are either lying, have only ever fired one single shot, or have never shot anything more powerful than a 22 Short. Basically, if you shoot a centerfire handgun long or often enough you WILL have to learn how to cope with a flinch or take up Bowling.

I agree with Miles, sounds like you're squeezing your fingers. Maybe a little bit of a flinch. Lotsa dry fire practice can help.
This chart is for a right handed shooter, just reverse it.

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For the Lefty


and the Righty


VIDEO0030.mp4 - YouTube

VIDEO0048.mp4 - YouTube

Scooter offers some very good advice.
Regardless of what the chart says, low and right hits for a left-handed shooter are frequently related to anticipation of recoil.
First, I'm a fan of isosceles stance, the following applies to that stance.
I'd square your stance off and have you face the target nearly straight ahead. OK to have your right foot slightly forward of the left, perhaps a few inches. Weight should be on the balls of your feet such that if you had a dollar bill under your heel, I'd be able to steal it without tearing it. Think "walking on ice" as far as stance and balance goes. If you couldn't transfer your shooting stance to an ice rink, it's not ideal.
Your left-hand grip should be about as firm as you'd hold a hammer, nothing more. your right hand grip should be very firm, but not so much that it introduces tremors. left hand squeezes front to rear and right hand squeezes side to side. Both thumbs point downrange but are just "along for the ride" and should not exert force on the firearm.

I frequently shoot low and left. May I adapt your suggestions from left-hand grip to right-hand grip simply by reversing them?

Great visuals and solid advice!
Thanks!

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Accidents don't just happen...

Yes, hooking the front of the trigger guard is bad. However, there is a use for those textured guards, but I'll address that at another time.

This is quality advice and really the source of the OP's problem.

Based on the pic in the OP, it looks like he has a hybrid stance; part Weaver, part Isosceles. Not good and I'll address that in a moment.

This is the first time I've heard this. My first thought is that it could throw off the aim, but I'm not sure. Let me think about it a little.

I'm going to make another post in a minute so it doesn't get confused with the above. It will address all the points here.

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Freedom isn't free.

OK, here is what I normally post concerning grip:

Relax your thumb and get it higher in the grip. Like this:


Yes, I know that's not an M&P, but the grip is the same.

Then when the other hand comes up, it should look like this:


Yes, I also realize that I'm a lefty. The grip is the same for right handers, but a mirror image.

If you are crossing your thumbs, stop it. That has the effect of pulling the gun down. With your thumbs high, the bore is lower in the grip and allows for faster/easier recoil control.

Also, ensure the bore is in line, as much as you physically can, with your forearm:


One more thing, relax your pinkies. They offer little to no help with stabilizing the grip. I've even had some students put their pinkies straight out and seen dramatic improvement in group size.


Now, let's talk about stance. I'm going to use the OP's pic:


It's a little difficult to tell, but it looks like you're trying to square your shoulders with the target. Yet, you have you feet staggered. I'm more of a fan of the Weaver (or modified Weaver) stance for defensive shooting. We can discuss the reasoning at a later point if you like, but the purpose of this is to pick one or the other.

The Weaver stance will have your arms like this:


The shooting arm is nearly straight, but not straight, and the support arm is bent with the elbow pointed at the ground. Not locking out the shooting arm helps control recoil. The support arm must be bent (unless you're a freak of nature) because the shoulders are angled in relation to the target.

In the pic, you are hunched over a little. Stop that. Stand up straight and relaxed. Hunching does nothing to help your shooting and will only tire you out. It causes you to tense and that's bad for shooting.

The trigger finger should be on the trigger at the middle of the first pad. Think, "Press the trigger straight back" when shooting. Take your time. Every trigger break should be a surprise break just like you did with that last group.

Your concentration needs to be on the front sight. Hard focus on the front sight. Rear sight will be blurry, target will be blurry and the front sight will be in sharp focus. As you press the trigger, you're only thought needs to be, "Keep the front sight aligned with the rear." The shot will be a surprise and will go to the same place every time if done perfectly.

Dry practice is the key. For every live round I've shot through my carry gun, I have 10-50 dry presses. I have 6,500 through that gun so, I have at least 100,000 dry presses.

Putting a shell on the slide as you do dry presses is a good idea, but it's not perfect. It helps with learning to steady the gun, but it blocks the sights. Further, it must be a small casing like a .22LR. I've found that larger cases are too easy to keep up there. They will stay even with a little movement. Even a small movement will compromise the shot. We all move a little, the idea is to minimize that as much as possible.

So, another idea is a "wall" drill.
Unload your gun. (I'm not going into my "rules for dry practice" here, but I will, if you like, later.)
Now, find a spot on a wall and aim your gun at it. Put the muzzle less than an inch away from the spot. It's important to be close to the spot.
Hard focus on the front sight and prrreeeessss the trigger to the rear.
When the sear breaks, did you see movement in the sight with relation to the spot? Yes, you did. If you didn't you're not human. The concept here is to keep doing this until the movement is really tiny.

Work at all this slowly. Once you have the mechanics down, start to speed up, but always remember the basics. Eventually you'll find that you can shoot quite fast and still keep your basic mechanics controlled.

Remember this acronym: A.S.P., Accuracy, Speed and Power.
An asp is a nasty snake. Not necessarily large, but deadly. When talking about guns, Power is whatever the cartridge is; you can't change that unless you change guns.
Speed is important. If you're really slow, your target will move and you'll miss.
However, accuracy is key. You may have a lot of power, and you might be really fast, but if you can't hit your target, all the speed and power means nothing. So, work on accuracy first, then speed and power takes care of itself.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks to all who took the time to reply. I genuinely appreciate it. Ya'll gave me a lot to think about.

I will digest the above before my next trip to the range.

As a fellow 'lefty' i know what your taking about... Low and right, the story of my life. In order for me to correct the situation, i need to constantly tell myself to keep my arm straight and to NOT roll or limp wrist my gun hand.

Another confession...my "salvation" came in the form of a gun.

No matter how hard I tried to concentrate, I just couldn't shoot DA/SA and striker fired guns well. In the end I had to admit to myself that I just couldn't control those triggers well. When I finally broke down and bought a 1911, my groups shrunk in half.

A good trigger does make a big difference.

As much as I like my M&Ps, there's nothing like the trigger on a 1911.

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Freedom isn't free.

Yes please.

Since you asked nicely and I haven't typed over 1,000 words today...

Some get bent out of shape when I list these rules. So, remember what you paid for them.

We've all heard the phrase, "More people are shot by unloaded guns..." Even though that is physically impossible, most of us understand the meaning. Well, it's real. This short list will help keep you and your family safe while practicing without ammo at home.

• Unload your gun. This may sound obvious, but if it were, there would never be a negligent discharge (ND) at home.
• -
• Designate a dry practice area. If possible, pick a place that has a back stop with some ability to stop a bullet. A brick or cinder block wall is good or a wall facing a dirt hill is good too. It doesn't matter where this area is, but NEVER take ammo into this area. ALWAYS unload the gun and magazines before entering this area. Treat this area as sacred. If you have your carry gun strapped to you, don't go in this area.
• -
• Put up a target. It doesn't matter what it is, just be sure to put it up. A 3" sticky note works great. DO NOT use a permanent fixture. I can't emphasize this enough. I actually have a friend who was practicing his trigger control by pointing at guys on the TV. Yep, you guessed it, he got a brand new plasma TV, just a little sooner than he wanted. More on this later.
• -
• Say out loud, "I'm starting dry practice." Sound dumb? It's not. This alerts anyone that might hear you to what you're doing. It is also a stronger clue to yourself of what you're doing. It helps trigger that inner sense of heightened safety. Do a chamber check and magazine check at the beginning. (If you don't know what that is, just ask. I have all day.)
• -
• Set a time limit. The average attention span to achieve quality learning is about 20 minutes. You can practice for hours if you like, just break it up into sessions not longer than 20 minutes.
• -
• Do your practice. Trigger control, follow through, malfunction drills, whatever you feel like doing. Earlier in the thread I talked about a "wall drill". This is a good time to do that. You have your temporary target up and can use it because you're in your designated area where you're sure there's no ammo, right?
• -
• When you're done with your practice session, say out loud, "I'm done with dry practice", take down your target and leave the dry practice area. Again, this emphasizes the actions you're taking and ingrains a better level of safety.
• -
• Under no circumstances say, "One more time." This will eventually lead to disaster. I know of one fellow who was doing dry practice and using a picture on his wall for a target (here's another reason that's bad). He finished and loaded up his carry gun to head off to work. As he was headed out the door, he saw that picture and thought, "Just one more time." This time he had a loaded gun and put a hole in the picture and the wall. Thankfully he had a solid wall behind it and the round didn't continue to his neighbor's house.

I've had a lot of guys get upset when I mention these simple rules. Most of the rules should seem so obvious that it leaves you wondering why I would say them. Still, some think I'm questioning their manhood or something because I suggest not using the TV for a target. If you want to use your TV, fine. Just don't come crying here when you have to buy another.

Complacency is the biggest cause of NDs in the gun world. By following these rules the chance of a ND is lowered a great deal.

I have broken many of these rules myself. Fortunately, I haven't had a ND. Alas, I'm human and as such, fallible. By following these rules, it makes us all safer.

Just to hammer safety home:

1. Always handle every gun as though it were loaded.
2. Always be aware of your muzzle and only point it at something you're willing to destroy.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointed at your intended target.
4. Always know your target and what is in line with it. It's not enough to know the target and what's beyond. You have to be sure no one can walk in between you and the target.

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Rastoff,

DEFINITELY, rules to LIVE by........

If these rules offend you, then you shouldn't own a gun. IMHO...

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Criminals don't register guns.

Rastoff - Thanks for taking the time to post the dry fire rules. I appreciate it.

Rich

There were several mentions of using an empty cartridge on the slide to control excessive movement when dry firing. I have always been told to use a coin for this technique as it does not block the sights and has a low center of gravity.

Just my 2 bits worth (pun intended)

I especially love the addendum to rule #4, about someone walking between you and the target. Even though I practice it, I'm going to start pointing it out when officiating at the range events.

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

Me too. That's why I say it that way.

I'm also an NRA R.S.O. and a Certified Pistol and Shotgun instructor. The NRA teaches:
1. Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

Those are great, but can be a little ambiguous.
What is a safe direction? Up? Down? Down range?
When are you ready to shoot? If I'm at the ready, am I ready to shoot?
When is the gun ready to use? I was at the Trap range and saw a guy at the trunk of his car getting his shotgun out. He was thumbing rounds into the magazine. When I asked him about it, he said that he was "ready to shoot" so he was loading his gun. It never dawned on him, until I said something, to wait until he was at the line to load.

So, I teach the 3 NRA rules in my class, but I also add the 4 rules I stated above. I find they are less ambiguous. Are they perfect? No. But they are good.

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I'm a tight wad, I use a dime!!! Works for me.

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In all seriousness, the coin is too stable. A penny or dime is just too easy to keep on the gun. It won't show the minor movements that will throw your shot off by a few inches.

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Freedom isn't free.

Cool, so did I see somewhere in the post to use an empty casing? I can't find it? Or what is a better solution than a coin? I'm always up for improvement.

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Criminals don't register guns.

You can put an empty casing on your slide. The idea is to keep it there while pressing the trigger. The drawback is that you can't see the front sight while doing this. Thus, you can practice your trigger press with this technique, but not Sight Alignment, Sight Picture and Trigger Control all at the same time.

This is where the wall drill helps.

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Freedom isn't free.

I also shoot left handed and had a similar problem, for me the extra tightening of my grip moved the sights low and to the right.Try gripping hard and then relaxing a bit before before pulling the trigger.l I know it may sound silly but try shooting with your right hand possibly while sitting and see where your grouping is. This should prove to you that it isn't the sights. The other suggestions posted seem right on the mark.

Thank you Sir, Much appreciated. I was using the dime on the front site, not the slide but I like the 22lr idea better, seems to be more precise. I do pretty well with sight alignment, sight picture etc... Maybe after some time, I can put that 22lr on the site instead of the slide, then I can work on all 3. Have passed your knowledge on to some friends who are anxious to learn better technique. (may owe you a royalty)?

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Criminals don't register guns.

I like Cherry Coke.

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Freedom isn't free.

Lots of good advice here.

I am going to add my two cents on the low left groupings (or low right for lefties). Hope it helps.

My first suggestion is to find a good instructor in your local area. You will notice a significant difference when he coaches you one on one.

My other suggestion is to watch this video and apply Jeff Cooper's technique of a surprised break.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

I applied it and here are the results with my M&P9 full size:

My low left group when I did not apply a surprised break at 7 yards


My groups when I applied a surprised break at the same distance:





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

I'll jump in late here if it's ok.
Your groups are tight. That's good, but their off target slightly.
That might indicate your sight picture may be off. Are you by chance cross eye dominant? That is, shooting with your left hand and your right eye is the dominant one? You didn't say if your shooting with both eyes open or which eye.
Also, your vision may be changing. Are the sites sharp and the target blurred? Thats the way it should be. Your eyes can't focus on both target and sites and have both sharp at the same time. The front site is most important. I'd take a look at that.
Your stance needs work. You are all hunched up while shooting. If you want to be constistant, you need to stand erect and bring the gun up to your eyes, not bring your head down to the gun to meet it. When you bring the gun up, do it just as if you were pointing with your finger at the target except the gun is an extension of your finger. (We can point naturally at an early age without even thinking about it.) And have you weak hand meet up with the gun in front of your face.
You can never consistantly hunch your shoulders or duck your head the exact same each time. Give that a try. Good luck.

Moosedog - thanks for the tips.

I'm left-eye dominant, have confirmed several times.

I do see sharp front site, and blurry target and rear site. For some reason, at this point I can't resolve having both eyes open, so for now, I shoot with my right eye closed.

I'll definitely try to not hunch over next trip to the range.

Thanks again.

Dry fire every night for 10 min. Watch and make sure sights dont move. You may need to reposition your trigger finger to ensure the sights don't move. Dry fire is the key. Next month you won't have any problem.

Thank you sir, does this make us even? LOL.

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Criminals don't register guns.

VIDEO0030.mp4 - YouTube

VIDEO0031.mp4 - YouTube

Hi Coach.

First trip to the range today in about a month. I've been on a project in Abilene Tx until last Saturday.

Today I shot Federal 115 gr FMJ in the same M&P FS rental pistol I've been using. I shot 50 rounds at 7 yards in five shot groups, as usual.

So, I adjusted my stance to a more natural, relaxed posture, as many of you suggested. I was rewarded with groups that covered the point of aim a LOT better.

See picture 1 and picture 2.

Feel like I'm making good progress, thanks to all, especially Rastoff, for the pointers and tips.

Rich

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Take your time, fast. J.Hughes

I like that stance much better. You look much more relaxed.

The target looks better, but what are the holes in the 9 ring? Are you "stringing" your shots? Are you getting the surprise break? Are you trying to get the compressed surprise break?

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Freedom isn't free.

Ah, that.

Those rounds would be from Mrs. Llando88, who was shooting the other box of 50 alternately with me. However, being a sensible husband, I shall make no comment on her groups.

I worried about my shots consistently hitting low left when shooting the Glock with fixed sights.

Until I got a sight-tool.

I adjusted the sights, and the problem magically went away.

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WWSSD?
What would Skeeter do?

Just wanted to add a few other points, in case they are useful to other noobs.

I tried the Vee test, as suggested by Scooter123. I was slightly sidesaddle, AND I discovered I needed to move my finger out in order to press the trigger using the middle of the finger pad. Felt quite odd at first, but after a while I felt it enabled me to press straight back easier.

I also made sure that I was gripping front to back with my left (shooting) hand and left/right with my right (support) hand. My thumbs were aligned, but for the first time, really were't involved in my grip.

I also fitted the pistol high up in the web of my hand, and realllllyyyy tried to focus on the front sight, presssssss the trigger and wait for the shot. The sight was waving all over the place BUT I was really pleased that, even though maybe I don't have the smallest groups on the planet, all of them were more or less centered on the target and not low and right.

Ah yes, the missus. We'll leave that alone.

Now, try speeding up a little.

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Freedom isn't free.

Click HERE for one of my favorite drills. Very effective...

Just shared this with my wife. Her response, "well, maybe she was aiming/shooting at something else".

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Accidents don't just happen...

Just wanted to update this thread with progress to date.

Since my last post, I purchased a FS M&P 9mm, stock #209301.

On 12/08/13, I shot in groups of 5 of Federal 115 FMJ. The stock trigger was gritty and slow/flexy before the break. My average group size was 3.4" at 7 yards.

I purchased and had installed by my LGS an Apex DCAEK and Apex Poly trigger. I also put in a set of Trijicon HD night sights.

The flex in the trigger is gone, and the pistol goes smoothly until I hear the 'click'.

Today, I shot another set of 100 rounds of Federal 115 FMJ. My 'best' groups were, in succession, 2", 1.75", 1.6" and on the last few groups, I had one group of 1.5". So pretty happy with that improvement.

Have had no malfunctions of any kind with the pistol, 240 rounds to date.

Squeezing with all fingers was something I did. What really convinced me of that was the fact that I shot my 7 round 3913TSW and a couple of my snubby revolvers better. With these guns the grips are short and my pinky is under the grip instead of on it which meant there was no grip pressure from the pinky. I took that idea and made sure that when I had all four fingers on a grip that my pinky was relaxed and not gripping too much and PRESTO!...much better across the board! I think I was unconsciously pulling the gun down with an uneven grip...now I have developed a much more even, firm grip and I shoot more consistently. If I feel I need to grip a particular gun firmer than usual I try to make sure it is more with the middle and third finger so as not to pull off target with the pinky.

As a test I hold a full grip gun in shooting position...watch what happens to the sight picture when you quickly squeeze a bit harder with just your pinky...pulls off target easily. Then try the same thing except squeeze a bit harder with just your middle finger...much less effect at least for me. This showed me how important an even grip all the way through the shot can be. JMHO.

Rastoff,

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and your practice rules. I have bookmarked these for later to print. Good ideas for everyday practice and for learning a new gun.

And above all of that, is see you are a vet, thank you for your service!

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Conceal/Open Carry. Be Legal.

Ditto!

I have pages of printed notes (created word docs) from Rastoff that are in my range bag. I review or reference each page before my 1st shot each time. Keeps me "on target"!!! I even have short cuts on my desktop, just for reference when I dry fire practice at home.

His and a few others input have led to this type of trigger control.
Trigger practice Dry Fire .22 casing - YouTube

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Criminals don't register guns.

I am a little disappointed that this is post #38. Unless I missed something, everyone else assumed that this rental gun was sighted in correctly for the OP. Why?

There was a lot of excellent advice which would be relevant if the shooter was the source of the problem, but I think that this is the first post to point the most likely answer - the sights are off!

If you have a tight group that isn't where you want it, you have just discovered why some folks buy guns with adjustable sights.

A good instructor can assist in determining whether it's you or the gun, but remember that your first aim is to get the bullets to go where you think you're pointing the gun. If the group is small, chances are all you need to do is to adjust the sights (or buy your own gun).

The best advice I was given was that I should be holding the gun with the large arm muscles, namely my tricep and bicep. As a Lefty, the instructor taught me to push the backstrap with the web of my left (shooting) hand and pull the gun back with the fingers of my right hand wrapped around my left and place my thumbs parallel to the barrel. I feel tension in my left tricep and right bicep (think "Pushme-Pullyou"). There is absolutely no tension in the fingers of my shooting hand. It felt weird at first but my groups immediately tightened up.

NOT being a qualified instructor/ never having seen YOU shoot/ and a believer that NOT every technique is best for ALL, I can only speak for myself. When the size/shape/grips of the gun make me reach for the trigger I tend to shoot right. When I am too close to the trigger I tend to shoot left. When shooting at multiple target some I hit dead on some right and some left. A tip & easy fix I got was to hold the gun more directly in front of my dominant eye & keep both eyes open & keep the front sight in clear focus. When the gun is correctly in front of the dominant eye it feels more natural to have both eyes open & I really don't have to think about it. I don't know about your age or eyesight, but if you have many diff pairs of glasses try them all. I found I shoot significantly better with 1 pair & they ARE NOT my normal ones.

I'm gratified that adjusting the sights only came late in the game here.

It's common for people to blame the equipment when things aren't perfect. However, without proper testing technique, it can't be determined if it's the gun or the shooter. So, the first thing to do is eliminate as many variables as possible.

To determine if the sights are off, the gun must be shot from a bench rest. Otherwise it's impossible to know if it's the gun or the shooter. Along with that, the vast majority of inaccuracy problems are due to the shooter.

Then, the distances have to be considered. If accuracy issues are being seen at short distances, 7 yards in this case, adjusting the sights is not going to move the POI 3 or 4 inches.

So, could it be the sights? Absolutely! Could it be a defect in the barrel? Slide? Certainly. But, I'm gratified to be part of a forum that takes a quality, scientific approach to finding the true cause of accuracy issues. In fact, if you look at the whole thread, you'll see that the advice given here has helped the OP dramatically without adjusting the sights. Does that mean the sights are perfect? Certainly not. It just means that most of the readers here have come to the realization that shooting accurately is a lot more than just the sights.

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