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02-17-2014, 01:05 PM
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My Shield .40 issues
Hi all, great site you have here. I found this forum after I started having issues with my shield 40. I really wanted to know if what I was dealing with was common/normal. I don't normally post to forums but in light of all the recent activity on here concerning this firearm I thought I should share my experience.
About a month ago I took it to the range for the first time in awhile. I fired about 5 magazines through it of three different types of ammo, WWB 165gr, PPU, and Hornady Critical Defense. All purchased shortly before the range trip from a big box store. All of them went off without a hitch, all of the rounds fed and fired perfectly. When I got home I cleaned out my range bag and inspected the brass from the days shooting(something I always do). I was shocked to see that many of the casing were severely deformed in the web area. The critical defense rounds were deformed almost to the braking point. Needless to say I was a little put off by this. I have never had a firearm do this in any caliber, I have heard of it happening though.
I contacted S&W and they requested I send it back to them. It is currently with them and I am awaiting a resolution. Is this normal for these guns? Am I overreacting? I realize the Hornady rounds are a little on the hot side but they are still within SAAMI specs. The PPU and WWB rounds deformed as well although not to the extent of the Hornadys.
I have included some photos of the barrel and Hornady rounds for reference. Any comments, suggestions or questions are welcome.
Thanks, Alex
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02-17-2014, 01:44 PM
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I am glad you did not have any issues like others have had. The bulges in your brass would be disconcerning..
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02-17-2014, 01:51 PM
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thanks for the post...I don't look at my brass but am going to now...I have the FS40...I have been pondering a 40c or shield but think I am going to hold off for awhile until this issue is cleared up
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02-17-2014, 02:36 PM
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Thanks, I am glad to not have had a kaboom. Checking my brass after range time is a habit I picked up from my father. He was an avid reloader. I am not but it does give me a good idea of how my firearms are functioning.
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02-19-2014, 07:59 PM
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Ajax, I'm watching this one closely and very interested in what S&W comes back with. I feel this is just shy of having another kaboom.
Please keep us posted if you can.
Good luck!
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02-19-2014, 08:35 PM
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Is there excessive play side to side when you drop the bullet in the chamber... I just looked at my 9 and 40 Shield, they both look fine, similar to your picture, but supported all the way around except for the feed ramp where it had a small area of no support. Looking at other models, they all looked similar. To have a bulge at the back the way you do, it seems to me you would have to have a step inside the barrel. Mine are all the same inside diameter where the shell seats...
also, checked a bunch of my ammo.... everything looks normal. The only way I can see that would be if there was a step at the end of the chamber, but then I wonder how the shells would eject...
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Last edited by turbo38gn; 02-19-2014 at 08:50 PM.
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02-19-2014, 08:44 PM
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Looks like the bulge goes all of the way around the fired case, not just in the unsupported area?
Also the primers don't look bulged, so it does not appeared to be excessive-charged rounds.
Glad you sent the pistol back to S&W.
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02-19-2014, 09:47 PM
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There was play side to side when the round was in the chamber. Don't know what you would consider excessive. The bulge in the case goes about 3/4 of the way around the case and was about twice as large as the unsupported part of the chamber. Don't know what to make of that. Maybe the round is still building pressure as it begins to eject. I am no expert that is why I sent it back. If you look at the picture of the barrel with no round in it you can kind of see that the chamber is chamfered about 3/4 of the way up the sides not just in the feed ramp area.
Last edited by Ajaxtheknight; 02-19-2014 at 09:51 PM.
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02-19-2014, 10:00 PM
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background questions....
1. Are you the original owner?
2. Did you have the throat polished?
It looks like the ramp and throat have been hogged out.
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02-19-2014, 10:06 PM
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1. Yes I am the original owner
2. Other than a set of talon grips and some gray letter fill on the slide it is unmodified.
I have not shot it enough to even warrant more than a field strip cleaning.
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02-19-2014, 10:10 PM
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I will wager that S&W will put a new barrel in that.
Good thing you didn't shoot any of the high test 135grain stuff. That one is a kaboom waiting to happen.
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02-19-2014, 10:17 PM
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Would you happen to know your build, test fire or purchase date?
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Last edited by JFR; 02-19-2014 at 10:19 PM.
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02-19-2014, 10:20 PM
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It was test fired 8/23/12.
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02-19-2014, 10:23 PM
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mine was 10-03-12
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02-19-2014, 10:24 PM
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Interesting. All of the kabooms spoken of here recently with known build dates (3 of the 5) were built prior to 2013. I wonder if there was a bad batch of barrels similar to yours that went out.
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02-19-2014, 10:25 PM
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Your pictures clearly demonstrate a barrel with very poor chamber support. As we all know, this is the cause of the brass deformation. I would not shoot this barrel anymore.
My new Shield 40 HRU****Test fire date 11-15-13, appears to have better chamber support. It's not 100% but looks around 97%. Whereas yours looks only 88%.
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02-20-2014, 10:13 AM
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Thanks for posting this info. I took my .40 Shield out to my property yesterday and checked the brass after firing. All my brass looked good. No bulging at all. Looks like you may need a new barrel. As you know, the brass shouldn't look like that.
My Shield is brand new. I got it in early January. It had a test fire date of late Nov 2013 if I remember correctly. Chamber support looks good in my barrel.
Last edited by Capttjk1; 02-20-2014 at 11:42 AM.
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02-21-2014, 04:46 PM
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I wonder if any of the Shield kaboom owners had similar problems before the kaboom.
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02-21-2014, 06:03 PM
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Well Alex, if your barrel is poorly supporting the round I would say from comparing pictures yours is not the only one...
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02-21-2014, 06:17 PM
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The Hornady rounds would be nickel plated brass. Those with the bulge look like plain yellow brass.
I have shot quite a few of those Critical defense rounds in my Shield, and a bunch of WWB, and have never seen any bulges in the spent cases. IDK about the PPU. I reload, so I save all my brass. If there was any bulged brass, I would have noticed it.
I loaded some handloads that were over the SAAMI specs, and they bulged the cases. The difference was that the case bulge was not nearly as far up the side of the case as those in your pictures. There is clearly a big difference between the feed ramp cutout on your barrel and mine.
Here is a shot of some of this brass. I already resized them, but you can still see the extent of the deformation.
Compare that with your brass. Note that the bulged area is bigger.
For comparision, here is a shot of some truly Glocked brass, also already resized. Note how much higher up the case the bulge extended.
And no, I don't reuse cases with obvious deformation marks like these on them. Those hot loads I made were clearly a dangerous error on my part. I DO NOT RECOMMEND TRYING THIS! When I discovered the bulges, I stopped shooting those rounds and subsequently disassembled them.
Could it be that some barrels with too large of a cutout in this area got by QC? I assume you sent them the cases, or at least some pictures of them. I'll be very interested in what S&W has to say about this.
Last edited by feelinlucky; 02-21-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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02-21-2014, 07:22 PM
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Carver, I can only guess that poor chamber support is part or all of the problem I am having. I am no expert. Your barrel does look very similar to mine.
Lucky, all of the brass I included photos of in my post are Hornady. Including the unfired round in the last two pics for reference. Poor lighting I think is why they look yellow but they are nickel plated. They exhibited the worst bulging of all the brands but at least two other brands of ammo I fired resulted in bulging of some sort. Your experience with the critical defense rounds definitely points to a defect in my firearm.
I did include several photos of the rounds and of the barrel in my original communication with S&W. The canned nature of all of there communications back to me gives me the feeling that they didn't mean much to them. That is only a guess though.
Last edited by Ajaxtheknight; 02-21-2014 at 07:40 PM.
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02-21-2014, 08:15 PM
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After seeing the Kabooms in this forum I traded in my shield 40. Don't want it to blow up in my hand I traded another old gun with it and got a Glock23 and 200 rounds of American eagle ammo.
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02-21-2014, 08:23 PM
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Interesting. Those Glocked cases in the picture above were from a gen 2 Glock 23. Enjoy!
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02-21-2014, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelinlucky
Interesting. Those Glocked cases in the picture above were from a gen 2 Glock 23. Enjoy!
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well done...
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02-21-2014, 10:19 PM
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Double from the other thread.
Shield .40 left and 9mm right
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02-22-2014, 07:38 AM
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My .40 Shield Barrel, couldn't make a good pic but mine seems to have good support plus the brass looks good no bulges.
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02-22-2014, 08:24 AM
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It looks to me that on some of the pics the actual case sits further in the chamber on some than others, like maybe the depth of the chamber varies on some barrels? i have been sweating it out about this since these "kabooms" have been reported but i "think" mine is good to go.
I almost looked about trading or selling but i already have extra mags and holsters so i am just going to keep it and see what happens.....
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02-22-2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fchewy
It looks to me that on some of the pics the actual case sits further in the chamber on some than others, like maybe the depth of the chamber varies on some barrels?...
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I have noticed this too. It may not be the feed ramp cutout, but maybe the way the chamber face is milled, or even possibly headspacing. Or some combination of these things. Something is definitely fishy on some of these chambers.
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02-22-2014, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelinlucky
I have noticed this too. It may not be the feed ramp cutout, but maybe the way the chamber face is milled, or even possibly headspacing. Or some combination of these things. Something is definitely fishy on some of these chambers.
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Exactly. Once again, luckily for me, mine (test fire date 11-15-13) looks to have much better chamber support compared to some of these in the pics. That's why I'm gonna go shoot it.
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02-22-2014, 05:04 PM
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I just got back in town after a few weeks of work. I've been following all these threads since my Shield 40 is my edc. So I just looked and my test fire date was 11-13-12. I don't know how much play the round is supposed to have in the chamber, but mine does have a little wiggle.
This shows kind of how much space there is there. It seems like the gap goes further up one side than the other.
This was just for comparison, but do you guys think the one in the middle has too much setback?
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02-22-2014, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dikinalaska
I just got back in town after a few weeks of work. I've been following all these threads since my Shield 40 is my edc. So I just looked and my test fire date was 11-13-12. I don't know how much play the round is supposed to have in the chamber, but mine does have a little wiggle.
This shows kind of how much space there is there. It seems like the gap goes further up one side than the other.
This was just for comparison, but do you guys think the one in the middle has too much setback?
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The round has wiggle because of how the feed ramps are cut. Had the Shield not have the feed ramp it does, then it wouldnt have as much wiggle. In return it would be a little more supported. However it comes with sacrifice. You see the tighter the fit, the less reliable it feeds certain types of bullets. For instance in the 1911 world, many older ones had problems feeding HP but they would feed FMJ just fine. This is why the modern Colt 1911's have a dimpled throat. Which allows them to more realibly feed different bullet types like HP's. But at the same time not changing the original design of the 1911. They just improved it, thats all they did. This is one of those things where ur sacrifice something. In the Shield case, u sacrifice more chamber support for a more reliable feeding weapon that was built around CC. So they knew most people would be shooting HP for protection. May as well make the weapon more reliable when feeding those particular types of bullets.
These feeds ramps were never an issue until pressures started rising in factory rounds.
Last edited by Smitty357; 02-22-2014 at 05:18 PM.
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02-22-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty357
The round has wiggle because of how the feed ramps are cut. Had the Shield not have the feed ramp it does, then it wouldnt have as much wiggle. In return it would be a little more supported. However it comes with sacrifice. You see the tighter the fit, the less reliable it feeds certain types of bullets. For instance in the 1911 world, many older ones had problems feeding HP but they would feed FMJ just fine. This is why the modern Colt 1911's have a dimpled throat. Which allows them to more realibly feed different bullet types like HP's. But at the same time not changing the original design of the 1911. They just improved it, thats all they did. This is one of those things where ur sacrifice something. In the Shield case, u sacrifice more chamber support for a more reliable feeding weapon that was built around CC. So they knew most people would be shooting HP for protection. May as well make the weapon more reliable when feeding those particular types of bullets.
These feeds ramps were never an issue until pressures started rising in factory rounds.
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Thanks Smitty, you never cease to amaze me with how much I learn from you. So in your opinion do you think that round in the middle has been setback a bit? I went through pretty much all of my SD rounds and they're pretty consistent except for that one. It came out of the middle of the magazine, so I don't believe it's been chambered, but I guess it's not completely out of the question. Should I just dispose of that one? Being a SD round, I guess that's the worst possible time you'd want a kb situation. I guess it's only one round on second thought, it's not gonna break the bank lol.
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02-22-2014, 09:03 PM
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How much shorter is that round than the others? If it's not more than about eight or ten thousandths, it won't be a problem.
It's a good idea to not let your SD ammo get too old anyway. Just shoot the old ones up the next time you visit the range, and replace with new.
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02-23-2014, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelinlucky
I loaded some handloads that were over the SAAMI specs, and they bulged the cases.
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Am I understanding you correctly, the only cases you've seen bulge in your Shield have been the ones you loaded a little hot?
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02-23-2014, 01:09 PM
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Yes. That is correct.
And no, I don't make a habit of loading hot ammo. It's dangerous. I made an error in calculating the charge weight. I was lucky that all it did was bulge some cases.
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02-23-2014, 02:10 PM
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See, this is why I think the way the chamber/feed ramp is cut may be an issue. Combine an overloaded round with a weak case and less than complete support and you have a high potential for disaster. Make the chamber with full support and you reduce that potential by a great deal.
I just checked the chamber on my .45 and saw that it is not fully supported. I will check the rest of my handguns later. Pics to follow...
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02-23-2014, 06:40 PM
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I wanted to add a couple of pictures to this conversation for reference. These photos are of another .40 subcompact pistol, not a S&W. The factory polished feed ramp may give it away, wish Smith would do that. This firearm shoots everything I put through with no issues at all. If you notice it has excellent chamber support and needed no opening of the throat to aid feeding. The round does have wiggle in the chamber but it is obviously not from the feed ramp cut. It is related to the actual diameter of the chamber. As noted by a couple of other members, newer Shield .40s have more chamber support. I don't know if the early Shield .40s suffer from a manufacturing defect or if the throats were intentionally widened. I believe the later to be the case.
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03-04-2014, 05:00 PM
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I got my shield back today. Smith replaced the barrel. The chamber on the new one is visually the same as the old one. Doesn't appear to have any more chamber support. There are a couple imperfections on the outside of the new barrel. Not something you see when the gun is assembled so as long as the bulging issue is resolved I will be happy.
They received the gun from me on 2/17 and I got it back today. Not bad on the turnaround time.
I will try to get out on Friday to shoot it. Hopefully the problem is resolved. I will report back when I have shot it some.
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03-04-2014, 07:56 PM
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Let me guess. S&W didn't say why they replaced the barrel.
There are things that could cause pressure variations that aren't obvious. Maybe the bore was a few thousandths too small in a place or two, maybe the chamber throat was a little too short. That could explain the replaced barrel.
I look forward to a range report.
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03-07-2014, 05:18 PM
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I made it out to the range today to test the new barrel in my shield. I started with some WWB just to warm up and function test the firearm. Gun functioned perfect with no issues. I then fired a magazine of the Hornady Critical Defense. This was the ammo that was bulging the worst before. I picked up the brass and to my dismay every single one of the Hornady cases were bulged.
When I got home and compared the cases fired from the new barrel to the ones fired from the old barrel the bulge is maybe 10% smaller out of the new barrel. So there is a slight improvement but still scares me a little.
I have used this ammo for awhile now and have not had this problem with any other firearm. I shot a magazine of the Critial Defense through my XD .40 Subcompact which has been my go to while the shield was gone to see if maybe it was the ammo. Well it wasn't. None of the rounds that I fired through the XD which has a shorter barrel than the shield were deformed at all.
I was hoping to get some opinions on this. Am I nitpicking here? This has never happened to me before. Am I overreacting. Am I right to be concerned? Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
The pictures are of brass from today, fired from the new barrel.
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03-07-2014, 05:35 PM
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I'd contact Hornady and see if they would take a look at that photo and comment on it.
Personally I wouldn't be comfortable shooting that load/pistol combination.
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03-07-2014, 10:54 PM
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Feelinlucky, Smith and Wesson did not indicate why they replaced the barrel.
Is there anyone out there who has shot the Hornady Critical Defense out of their Shield .40? If so what were the results?
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03-08-2014, 01:58 AM
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This seems to be the pattern with the .40 Shields. The lion's share are fine, some are marginal and very few have actually had catastrophic failure. I believe this to be a combination of over pressure rounds and an unsupported chamber.
I would not use that round in that gun again. All it takes is a load with a weak case and you'll have a bad day.
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03-08-2014, 11:30 AM
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I just shot some 165gr Hornady Critical Defense rounds through my 40 Shield about 30 mins ago. I wanted to try them to see if I had the same issues. No issues at all. Really accurate ammo.
O
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03-08-2014, 11:38 AM
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Thanks for the reply musicman. Good to know that I am not just being paranoid, and that what I am experiencing is not normal.
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03-08-2014, 01:46 PM
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Does anyone know if a weaker than normal guide rod spring would contribute to the problem?
Alex,
Did S&W state that they replaced the barrel or is it just something you noticed? I'm wondering if they made any other changes.
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03-08-2014, 02:12 PM
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The paperwork from Smith was itemized and the only thing they noted was the barrel replacement.
I have considered the recoil spring/guide rod assembly as the issue. The reason being that the bulges in the cases are larger than the unsupported area of the chamber, leading me to believe that some of the bulging occurred after the round began to extract. This is a low round count firearm, the shield .40 isn't the most fun at the range so I only shoot it enough to stay proficient.
This morning I disassembled the gun for cleaning and I inspected the new barrel closer. I am extremely disappointed in what I found. The lip on the feed ramp is damaged. I consider this to be a critical area for reliable feeding. In the pictures you can see there are several chips on the lip. They are coated in black so they must have occurred before the barrel was coated/treated. the outside of the barrel also has a couple of imperfections. They almost look like scratches but are pretty deep. I think they are from manufacturing. These don't bug me as much as the feed ramp issue.
I have contacted Hornady about the bulging cases and am awaiting a response.
As for the gun, I will be contacting Smith and Wesson to express my disappointment.
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03-08-2014, 06:28 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFR
Does anyone know if a weaker than normal guide rod spring would contribute to the problem?
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No, I don't see how the recoil spring could contribute to bulging cases. This issue is isolated to the ammo and chamber.
Ajaxtheknight,
I'd be disappointed too. That barrel looks terrible. The line on the barrel itself is not really an issue, but the feed ramp is completely unacceptable. I'm stunned that they sent you a replacement barrel like that.
__________________
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03-10-2014, 09:45 AM
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I've shot maybe thirty rounds of the Critical Defense ammo through my 40 Shield. I always pick up all my empty brass and inspect it. Never seen any bulges at all from this ammo.
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03-10-2014, 10:32 AM
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I finally got my 40 shield to the range yesterday for the first time. I shot 200 wwb, 50 pmc, and 40 of the critical defense and luckily I didn't have a single bulge. All the ammo was 165 grain, I've looked through a lot of forums and a lot of different posts and from what I can tell almost all of the bulging cases are 180 grain.
Last edited by ballista216; 03-10-2014 at 10:34 AM.
Reason: Forgot picture
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