According to the article at this link, the SCHP is "ditching" their M&P357 pistols for the Sig 226/357. The article says the HP is having "extraction" issues.

NC Highway Patrol Ditching M&Ps for Sigs | Triangle Tactical

Does anyone know any more? I have a M&P357 and have put about 1,000 rounds through it with no problems of any kind.

Why an agency would pick a boutique round like 357 Sig over less expensive and just as capable 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP is beyond comprehension.

Well said.

Exactly the way I feel about someone buying a Chevy!

As much as I hate it, it's rarely about the quality of the product or value it brings to the end user. More often than not, it's about what the purchasing manager likes. Sometimes these contracts are simply about money for the initial purchase with no thought given to the up-keep and feeding.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that initially the .357Sig guns were $7 less per gun. So they bought them not realizing that the ammo was 20% more expensive.

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Freedom isn't free.

One word. Politics

Ultra, I like that "boutique round", can I use that sometime?

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Bodyguard

I've noticed a lot of city cops here use the Sig 229 in .40, and Sigs are big with law enforcement anyway. Sig probably offered the highway patrol (state police) a sweeter contract than S&W could.

SCHP or NCHP ? The article also states that"some" MSP troops were/are issued 226 357 sig?? Where?? MSP just did a full spring replacement of their 40 sigs 226, so they should be around a while. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

The .357 Sig caliber has it's biggest fans in the U.S. Secret Service. They have been carrying it for many years.

When DHS was formed in 2003, many of the Secret Service upper level managers went over to the TSA Air Marshal service. Subsequently the Air Marshals went to a Sig P229 in .357 Sig.

What I thought was interesting, was the fact that when most of the rest of DHS went to a new Sig P229 pistol, that pistol was ordered in .40 S&W.

Precisely, money talks. Just like the military, your weapon's supplied by the lowest bidder. Most LEO's carry what they're issued.

The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the 125 grain loading in a .357 Magnum, the round generally credited with the highest percentage of one-shot-stops. Being a bottlenecked round, it is also less likely to have feeding/chambering issues. It's a great round for which I do not own any guns in that caliber.
SIG also makes a great handgun.

LEO cartridges underwent a tumultuous period following the infamous FBI Miami Shootout, of which, cartridge failure (9mm) was a major factor eventually prompting the FBI to go to the 10mm short-stack for a period while the .40 S&W was secretly on the drawing boards. The .40 got there first and ran away with the show. Nevertheless, you don't want to find yourself at the wrong end of a .357 SIG.

M&P 357Sig 1.jpg DSC_0067.jpg

WOW! There sure is a lot of dislike for the 357Sig!
All I can say is my former employer purchased first the Sig 229/357 and then the 239/357, and we loved 'em. I could shoot it as fast and accurately as the Sig 228/9mm, and the boss liked the 357Sig for its flatter trajectory and higher energy at a given distance. They did have to buy ammo by the pallet since it was sporadically available.
I still like it, now in retirement, but have pretty much given up the Sigs (and any DA/SA) because I have considerable problems now with the double action / single action after the first shot, something that never bothered me before during 20 years using them. The M&P has been perfect for me. I've been wondering if my Sigs can be made DAO.
I recently read an article that reported the LAPD as saying they have had great success with the cartridge and are quite happy with it.
All comparisons I have seen show the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP as delivering very similar results, so perhaps the 357Sig is not the step up it once was. One of our sons is a LEO. His department issues 9mm Glocks. He has been shooting since he was five and is now a department firearms trainer. He says he feels well armed with the 9mm. Winchester LEO ammo, I think.
Another is professional military (four "tours" in the desert giving his father more grey hair). He is proficient with and seems happy with almost any caliber. I think we all agree hits count more than caliber.

Here are some ballistics from Ballistics 101 | All the ballistic charts. Finally, in one place
Seems to me the 357Sig has a significant edge over 9mm.

357Sig ballistics:

Buffalo Bore:
125-gr JHP, 564 ft/lb, 1425 fps
Cor-Bon:
125-gr DPX, 505 ft/lb, 1350 fps
Double Tap
125-gr JHP, 584 ft/lob, 1450 fps
Extreme Shock:
115-gr EPR, 410 ft/lb, 1220 fps
Federal
125-gr JHP, 506 ft/lb, 1350 fps
Fiocchi:
124-gr FMJ, 505 ft/lb, 1350 fps.
Grizzly:
125-gr HPXTP, 624 ft/lb, 1500 fps.
Hornady:
124-gr HPXTP, 502 ft/lb, 1350 fps.
147-gr HPXTP, 490 ft/lb, 1225 fps
Remington:
125-gr UMC, 506 ft/lb, 1350 fps.
Speer:
125-gr Gold Dot HP, 506 ft/lb, 1350 fps
Winchester:
125-gr JHP, 506 ft/lb, 1350 fps.

9mm Ballistics:

Buffalo Bore:
124-gr JHP+P, 413 ft-lb, 1225 fps
115-gr TACXP, 500 ft-lb, 1400 fps
Cor-Bon:
115-gr DPX+P, 399 ft-lb, 1250 fps.
125-gr JHP+P, 434 ft-lb, 1350 fps.
Double Tap:
124-gr Bonded Defense JHP+P, 473 ft-lb, 1310 fps.
115-gr JHP+P, 511 ft-lb, 1415 fps.
147-gr JHP+P, 410 ft-lb, 1125 fps.
Extreme Shock:
115-gr EPR, 385 ft-lb, 1182 fps.
124-gr FF, 385 ft-lb, 1182 fps.
Federal:
115-gr JHP, 356 ft-lb, 1180 fps.
124-gr Hyd-Shok, 345 ft-lb, 1120 fps

I cannot understand why they would adopt another pistol in that same unfortunate cartridge.

For my purposes, the .357 SIG is too expensive, too destructive of the weapons and it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that the 9mm +P+ round does not do, and the 9mm has the advantage of lower cost and a higher magazine capacity.

It is hard to reconcile the objective performance criteria of the .357Sig in testing (which as noted shows no real difference from the performance of the 9/40/45) with the strong affection expressed by those who have shot someone with it. I was at a class (in NC) in 2008 with a couple NCHP trainers. They shot really well, and loved the pistol and round.

I'd be furious if I had to put up with a SIG of recent make (last decade or so). The problems with their QC are well documented among LE trainers, and DA/SA is all clownshoes, all the time. Given the appearance fetish that rules all state agencies, the odds of wiser heads prevailing and allowing personally owned, department approved sidearms in any decent caliber are just about zero.

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NHI, 10-8.

I have a buddy in the nm state police and they "ditched" their m&p 357 due to slide cracking issues. They've now switched to the m&p 9. Just some additional info to contribute to potential problems with this gun/caliber.

Now that all those excessively long (and pointless) posts are out of the way...

The North Carolina Highway Patrol is, in fact, switching from the M&P .357 to the Sig 226 in .357. Saw two of them last week and they confirmed the change. I asked them why the change...they both said they honestly don't know and chalked it up to higher-ups said so. Extraction issues were news to them.

Talking pistol calibers these days is as divisive as religion and politics. It is laughable that everyone is an expert and everyone else is an idiot. This is still America where we have the luxury of owning one in every caliber and make if wanted. Personally I could care less if a guy is touting hi Hi Point C9 or 45 GAP as the schnizzle! I try pretty much everything if given the opportunity and find no issue whatsoever with .357 Sig or SA/DA pistols. Love my new to me M&P 9 and my older M&P 40 but not anymore than my Sigs.

I ditched my M&P 357 because of extraction problems.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

What the .357 SIG gives you is beyond 9mm+P+ velocities, andSAMMI specs. Something the 9mm+P+ doesn't. And as far as I can remember only 1 manufacture ever rated a pistol for the load and that was the HK USP.
As for being "boutique" really? It was designed by Federal for SIG because SIG was sick of rebuilding P226, 228, and 225's that had been battered by +P+. Simply put the .357 SIG put 9mm+P+ out to pasture!
Oh yeah, why is 17 suddenly so much better that 15? There is a magazine release and you should be carrying at least one reload.
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

I have witnessed LE firearms sales from the sales end for many years as it is the business of a very good friend of mine. Unfortunately when it comes to brand of firearm it always has to do with politics and wheel greasing and not consideration for officer safety. Caliber choice is most often a matter of opinion of the man in charge. JMHO

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An empty gun is a hammer

You noticed that too? It does get tiresome.

That's is the funniest thing I have read here in a long time.What about the all the problems with the M&P line.If you don't think they have problems then you are fooling yourself.I would be furious if I had to give up a Sig for a M&P.

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No doubt that there have been problems with M&Ps. The barrel/slide/accuracy crud with the M&P 9 is disgraceful, for example. This kind of stuff is not limited to S&W, either. When a police Lt. is referred to as the "Glock Gremlin Guru" and has been for over 5 years, that's a bad sign. However, if you look at the info available from agencies and trainers where there are collectively a LOT of rounds downrange, M&Ps are less troublesome than most other makes. Within that group, SIG has had awful problems. The one I bought was so messed up the dealer rejected it before I even saw it.

If shooters were Catholics, DA/SA would be a mortal sin. It serves no conceivable purpose, and is counterproductive to the purpose of a defensive sidearm. Managers (they are not leaders) who advocate such should be removed for incompetence and dereliction. I'd be more interested/confident in a used rebuilt 3rd generation S&W DAO than I would a new DA/SA anything.

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NHI, 10-8.

Pass the popcorn, please....

If I recall correctly, they experienced some wear/breakage with the other make/model of service pistol they previously used chambered in .357SIG, as well.

The cartridge is hard on guns. Even harder than .40 S&W.

If I had to support guns chambered in it I'd be replacing recoil springs pretty frequently, to try and keep the guns alive as long as possible.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

[QUOTE=Doug M.;137804985]*
No doubt that there have been problems with M&Ps. The barrel/slide/accuracy crud with the M&P 9 is disgraceful, for example. This kind of stuff is not limited to S&W, either. When a police Lt. is referred to as the "Glock Gremlin Guru" and has been for over 5 years, that's a bad sign. However, if you look at the info available from agencies and trainers where there are collectively a LOT of rounds downrange, M&Ps are less troublesome than most other makes. Within that group, SIG has had awful problems. The one I bought was so messed up the dealer rejected it before I even saw it.

If shooters were Catholics, DA/SA would be a mortal sin. It serves no conceivable purpose, and is counterproductive to the purpose of a defensive sidearm. Managers (they are not leaders) who advocate such should be removed for incompetence and dereliction. I'd be more interested/confident in a used rebuilt 3rd generation S&W DAO than I would a new DA/SA anything.[QUOTE


LOL It just keeps getting better.How many rounds down range do you think the U.S.Army has fired and guess what they use a DA/SA pistol.A little practice and the DA/SA transition becomes a non issue.

Actually, military personnel with the exception of a very few people in the SOCOM community do not shoot near as much as the people to whom I am referring. Included in my source group are people who did a lot of time in the military, and have serious qualms about the training provided to most personnel. Unlike me, they have the qualifications to make that commentary, and I will take their word for it.

That's putting aside that although a sidearm is by definition a secondary weapon anyway, it is even less important to most military folks. My background is from the LE side. As a (retired) officer and as a prior LE legal advisor, I am pretty familiar with the issues involved, and my statements are consistent with the legal advice I have given and would continue to give. Even as far back as my academy in 1989, the DA/SA format was roundly criticized by the instructors. It can be overcome to a great extent, but that is a waste of training time and money, foisted on personnel who had no say, by people who were not even arguably qualified to have an opinion, let alone make a decision of such import.

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NHI, 10-8.

Well, from here I smell money, somebody is making money. Just saying. Makes the world go 'round.

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Back to back World War Champs.

I just had to add this to the mix: Texas DPS switching service pistols for troopers | khou.com Houston

Previous NCHP weapon was a SIG229DAK. Prior to that they used the Beretta Cougar ( unknown caliber ). I think they had a lot of issues with that weapon and we're glad to see it gone.

I, as a NC tax payer, cannot understand the reasoning in going from a SIG that most troopers liked, to a S&W, and now back to a SIG. All of this in a few short years..

The very latest M&P LE pistols demonstrate that S&W continues to listen to end users and actively works on improving their products. I think most officers would be very well served with one in a duty holster. Whether one manufacturer builds a better product than another is rarely the sole criteria for choosing replacement service pistols. Most here would agree that money and politics get factored in to the decision making process. Beretta ignored the service end of the equation and the reality that you need to make concessions if you want LE market share. The 92 remains an excellent platform that some would prefer over Glock, Sig or an M&P. A better gun doesn't necessarily trump financial and/or other considerations.

The 357Sig is a fine round. It does have limited loadings and there are tradeoffs in muzzle blast, noise and accelerated wear. For some, the intermediate barrier penetration is a huge draw for this round. The 40S&W can be loaded to meet that same need. You can push a 9x19 fast with +P+ loads, but most manufacturers don't warranty such use and the case is marginal at extremes. Better to chose a caliber designed to handle greater power requirements. The 357Sig case is designed for high pressures and the bottle neck design enhances feeding reliability. The form factor allows it to fit most platform designs that also work for 9mm and 40S&W. Looks really great on paper...

But without enough critical mass in the form of a broader base of users, the round lost its opportunity to provide any ammunition manufacturer the ability to enjoy sufficient enough economies of scale to allow it to be price competitive with the 9mm and 40S&W and encourage more load development. With the pendulum swinging back to 9mm these days, it seems a fair certainty the 357Sig with never be more than a niche player that few departments will ever seriously consider going forward.The handwriting already is on the wall and the take away here is that there simply isn't anything compelling enough about the 357Sig for agencies to make a case for ignoring more practical considerations.

I have several Sigs....and have carried a 229 in 357 Sig as a police officer 17 years....the same one I was issued 17 years ago! I, along with a couple of "the young guns" shoot them a lot...I personally have put no less than 8 thousand rounds through it...without a hitch...there are 16 of us...no issues. We were told the quality of the ones we recieved in 95/97 was the best so we had them replace springs sights etc....here in New Hampshire I have dispatched plenty of Deer and even a Moose....not to mention the windshield test, car doors, etc....its record on one shot stops is impressive....all 16 of us have complete confidence in the pistol and the round

Lol.....most of the HP guys I work with HATE the M&P........

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

Why of course!

It's now 2016 and the NCHP (my son is a State Trooper) has been using the SIG P229 for quite some time.

It wasn't politics that led the NCHP to switch to the M&Ps. As I understand it, it was money -- and S&W made them an offer they couldn't refuse. (Glock has done that a lot.)

The Troopers began having problems with proper function -- feeding and extraction during training and periodic qualifications. As they started looking for solutions, they found that a few other agencies around the country were also having problems with certain .357 SIGs weapons (not just S&W). One I heard mentioned was that a few agencies were having problems with the sub-compact Glock models used by some officers.

S&W sent their experts down to Raleigh, tested and evaluated the guns, took some back with them and worked on solutions, but never found any. It wasn't long after that happened, that S&W discontinued production of the .357 M&Ps. (I suspect .357 SIG models will eventually come back, but that may take some design changes or a new model.)

There seem to be no problems now that the P229 is back in State Trooper holsters. Many of the NC State Troopers seemed to like their M&Ps, and a number were able to buy their duty guns from the State (as is often the case) when the guns were changed out. They get sweetheart deals on those guns -- and keep them for personal use or sell them for a good profit. The State recovers it's costs.

I don't think the problems were widespread, but they occurred often enough to cause concern -- but there were never problems in line-of-duty situation, probably because Highway Patrol officers seldom have to fire their handguns on the job. They'll use TASERs and similar tools far more often. But a gun that MIGHT NOT function right was a big, nagging concern. Many Troopers are also issued AR-15-type weapons, which are kept in the back of their vehicles.

thanks for that insight Walt Sherrill...I have had a M&P 357c for some time now (but admittedly under 1000 rounds fired) and mine has been a very nice shooter, accurate as anything and soft shooting to boot...I hope it continues along this path...

Bill

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Fast is Fine Accuracy is Final

I have the P229 (DAK) and the M&P (full size) in .357 SIG. No problems with either yet. I was looking for a M&P 357c with none to be found. I am thinking about converting my 40c to 357c. I like the round and I like the DA/SA of my P226 and the trigger. I see a trade in my future for another Sig. I see the logic in the HP's choice.

Chief's preference, purchasing agents, special deals, forfiture money, marketing ploys, cool factor, etc., etc., etc. There are 100+ reasons why a department changes guns and very few of them involve performance or officer satisfaction. The same way the LASD woes with the M&P were 100% training based. Unfortunately in a world of media mind control and zero accountability, it had to be the gun (until it wasn't the gun). When i read about a department ditching an M&P I rejoice in the potential for low cost surplus M&P's hitting the market. Woo Hoo!

I hope to find one of the traded in ones, if I can find 10 round mags for it...(thanks CT). I wouldn't mind owning something "different".

I think back when the 357 SIG first came out, the 9mm offerings weren't as good as they are today. 147 grain 9mm loads in particular had a really bad rep originally. A lot of State Highway Patrol Agencies wanted something that was said to be superior in penetrating a motor vehicle so they went with the 357 SIG.

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

The NC HP go through issue guns like you and I go through socks. They have changed three or four times in the last 15 years, looking for the magic solution and they have the money to spend. Come here and pay the taxes and you will know what I mean!

I don't know a lot about the 357 SIG, but everything I'm reading here makes me think of the 41 magnum round.

Developed with the goal of more power in an existing platform.
Pretty successful at achieving its intended purpose.
Not widely adopted by LE - probably for the wrong reasons.
Poor ammo availability and pricing because it wasn't widely adopted.
Now relegated (or soon to be relegated) to being just a specialty "boutique" cartridge.

I know the Cabelas in Greenville, SC had lots of used M&P 357sigs at great prices last fall, but when looking at the price and availability of the ammo I passed on getting one.

Whatever reason a government agency gives is not the real reason for whatever they do, but I do not care for 357 Sig myself.

Fastbolt, I don,t disagree with you very of oten, and read your post like the Bible. I have 2 357 sigs a Steyr M357 and a Glock 27 with 357 sig barrel. The 357 sig is no harder on a weapon than a 40 S&W. Yes it has a lot more velocity than a 40, but the inertia of 125 gr bullet is much less than a 180gr. It has a lot more muzzle blast than a 40 which some people interpret as recoil. As far as the 9 +P+ being equal, the bullet manufacturers had to develop a new bullet for the 357 sig 9 mm bullets were fragmenting. All guns I know of use the same recoil springs for 357sig an 40 S&W. I notice most people who knock the 357sig don't own one and base their opinion on the internet. Those of us who own them swear by them. I own everything from .32 to 10mm I carry the 357sig.

Yup. Most people who slam Glocks don't own Glocks, either.

I've had a couple of M&P Pros, sold my .40 version but absolutely love my 9mm -- best shooting 9mm I have.

The Glock 19, 23, 32, and 38 all use the same recoil spring, but the slides have different weights. (As I understand it, the recoil spring is primarily used to cycle a gun, i.e., strip the next round from the mag and chamber it, while slide weight helps control slide velocity.) The .40 and .357 SIG versions of the same gun typically share the same slide and spring assembly.

In the case of the NCHP and the .357 SIG, the problem was more than a matter of the HP wanting a change, etc. You'll notice that S&W no longer offers the M&P in .357 SIG in any form. There may have been a problem that S&W recognized, too. (You'll find it on the S&W site, but the entry is an "archive" display.)

Something may have been going on with the NCHP weapons; you don't hear a lot about function problems elsewhere. (And I'm sure that the NCHP didn't put a LOT of rounds through a lot of guns when they experienced the problems.) We may never know what the whole story was.

or maybe it just wasn't a big enough seller as several gun makers have given up on 357 SIG pistols...

Bill

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Fast is Fine Accuracy is Final

I was issued and carried a Sig P229 in 357 Sig for over a decade. It was very loud and had a large muzzle flash. I use to get headaches on the indoor range and went to double ear protection. I've witnessed two shootings with this caliber (Ranger & Gold dot 125 gr) and the results were nothing special, one subject had to be tasered after being shot. Our 357 sig had more breakage than our 9mm Sig we had prior. We now carry 40S&W. The FAMS I know tell me they are going to 9mm.

What's the difference between the .40 and the .357 SIG S&W guns? The barrel and the rollmark on the slide. Everything else, as best I can tell, is the same. The cost of offering a .357 SIG S&W couldn't be THAT great.

What S&W should have done was offered a single gun with both barrels for maybe $75 more. I bet they would have sold a BUNCH of them. That might've given S&W more incentive to figure out what wasn't working right in some guns.